|
| Thread: USA and Iran |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
posted October 24, 2007 09:53 AM |
|
|
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/010807A.shtml
Just do a google search for Bush profits from Oil (or similar). Bush and company is not stupid. You think they are going to make it obvious? It's just logical deduction.
Does the Bush family own oil fields. Yes.
Did the price per barrel go up during the war. Yes.
Did they sell Oil during this time. Yes.
Did they sell said oil for more then if there had not been a war? Yes.
Do they own stock in Oil companies. Yes.
Did said oil companies make record profits during the war. Yes.
Do preferred stock holders make more when profits are higher. Yes.
All this is searchable.
We are way OT though.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:10 AM |
|
|
<<You think they are going to make it obvious?>>
I was waiting for that one. Yea, it's off topic, sort of (everything in the Middle East is inter-related though). So now you have the typical conspiracy theory excuse for EVERYTHING. You don't have any evidence because it was well hidden.....and all the hundreds of thousands of people who would love nothing better than to take down Bush haven't been able to find it either. I guess all those hundreds of thousands of people have been paid off to keep quiet, right? And the Democrats who would love more than anyone to take out Bush haven't found the evidence either, even though they surely have the money, time and motive to carry out any investigation needed to find evidence...if it existed.
Again, your last post was nothing but empty claims. A link to a web site with more of the same old claims is meaningless.
Logical deduction???? When there is no evidence whatsoever, logical deduction tells me something completely different.
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:15 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 10:27, 24 Oct 2007.
|
Ok, do you dispute that they own oil? Or perhaps that they sold oil during the years we've been at war? Maybe you dispute they have interests in oil companies? Prove that this is the case.
Perhaps you dispute that prices of crude went to record highs? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801/ Or that oil companies made record profits? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11098458/ (Exxon Mobil made 10billion in a 3 month period). Prove that these things did not take place.
And prove how logically they did not make more money then they would have if there was no war. (Assuming you can not prove the above).
I am more then willing to carry on this discussion through HCM. I think, however, we should stop derailing this topic. 
Actually I think under the given situation that nobody could have done a better job then Bush. Simply because it is a loose/loose situation. I do not dislike Bush because he made a profit, and helped his friends make a profit. All the more power too him.
____________
Message received.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:21 AM |
|
|
There is a great documentary about that subject.
Here it is. It's free and fun to watch. Conspiracy theoreticizing even backed up with some evidence
The things related to your discussion can be found somewhere in the last third of the movie.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:25 AM |
|
|
OK, I'm watching it. Give me a while. (don't know how long it is)
oooo, it starts out with drama and noise and tension....just the thing to break down rational thinking. I scared
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:31 AM |
|
|
It's approximately 2 hours long, so it'll take a while 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:34 AM |
|
|
Again, don't mind me. I am just a nutjob conspiracy theorist. . Maybe the Bush's gave away the oil they owned during this time. Perhaps they gave all the profit to charities. Doesn't matter. Right now we are just making more and more enemies. For a war we should not be in, can not win (as we are going about it now), and which nobody wants us to keep fighting.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:38 AM |
|
|
Yea, I just noticed the length.
But when the guy started talking I quit watching. It's just more conspiracy theory bull****. If someone wants to pick out any so-called evidence contained in the movie, they are free to do so. But as far as I'm concerned this is just another case of the boy who cried wolf. That narrator lost all credibility within the first 30 seconds of opening his mouth.
____________
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:41 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Again, don't mind me. I am just a nutjob conspiracy theorist.
You said it not me.
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:42 AM |
|
|
Still would like to know which part you dispute. And evidence to support your claims. Just curious is all.
____________
Message received.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 10:44 AM |
|
|
Quote:
But when the guy started talking I quit watching. It's just more conspiracy theory bull****. If someone wants to pick out any so-called evidence contained in the movie, they are free to do so. But as far as I'm concerned this is just another case of the boy who cried wolf. That narrator lost all credibility within the first 30 seconds of opening his mouth.
I was thinking the same thing, but then he started backing stuff up and it was fun as hell
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 11:14 AM |
|
|
First of all, it's you (and others) who make the claim, so the burden of proof is on you. That's what I asked for at the very beginning. Show me the proof or even evidence. You haven't done that.
<<<Ok, do you dispute that they own oil?>>>
I know the family did at one time. I don't know if they still do. But it's irrelevant. Ownership of oil is no evidence of Bush going into Iraq for oil/money.
<<<Or perhaps that they sold oil during the years we've been at war? Maybe you dispute they have interests in oil companies?>>>
Same reply as above.
<<Prove that this is the case.>>
I'm not sure what you want proven here. Again I repeat that the burden of proof is on you. So far you haven't provided a single bit of evidence. They own oil, so what? So do I (not directly, but oil stocks are inside virtually all mutual funds and inside virtually all public retirement systems). As a mater of fact, I bought some more just today. So I guess now you have "proof" that *I* started the war simply due to the fact that I have some financial interest in oil.
<<Perhaps you dispute that prices of crude went to record highs?>>
<<Or that oil companies made record profits?>>
Same reply. You haven't shown any evidence yet that Bush went into Iraq to profit from oil.
<<I am more then willing to carry on this discussion through HCM>>
I'm not
<<I think, however, we should stop derailing this topic.>>
And how long do you really think a discussion about Iran could last without this coming up? Substitute the word "Iran" for "Iraq" and it's the same discussion about oil that was inevitable.
Although I DO have some things to say about Iran not related to oil, but not now.
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 11:24 AM |
|
|
Quote:
First of all, it's you (and others) who make the claim, so the burden of proof is on you.
So he who makes a claim has to prove it, right?
Let's see it from the beginning.
The first claim was made by the government (who started all this) that Iraq has WMDs, cooperates with Bin Laden etc.
So far there hasn't been any evidence about that.
They haven't proven anything, so why should they be right, and Mythical wrong? Currently, Mythical has more proof on her opinion than the government on theirs
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 11:27 AM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 11:34, 24 Oct 2007.
|
Ok now I am a bit confused.
Did you become president (and have the power to declare war)? Then how does your buying oil stock compair? The fact is, he is in a possition to do so, you are not. He profits from the war, as do a lot of his friends/family/business associates. You asked for how he profitted from the war, this is how. Did he go in just for Oil? Absolutely not, but it was a contributing factor. I never claimed he went in JUST for oil. All I claimed was is making money off of the war.
So, what am I missing here? Clue me in. He is making more money because of the war (and so is his friends/ect). Oil is one of the reasons we are there... :confused:
Now before somebody brings it up, yes I said. "If you think this war is not about oil..". Right now, it is more about that then anything. Going in, maybe not, but it was a factor. As certain things came to light everything else started falling to the wayside. Right now it is: Oil, the fact that we no matter what we do we're wrong, and throwing good money after bad.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 11:57 AM |
|
|
<<<So, what am I missing here?>>>
What you are missing is evidence. You just make claims. Owning oil or making a profit from oil is not even evidence, much less proof.
<<<He is making more money because of the war >>>
Very likely true, but not necessarily. Oil pricing is FAR more complicated than that. But here's the point you are missing. Let's assume your statement is true for now. Just because he made more money because of the war DOES NOT IMPLY that he made the war because of money.
If A implies B does not mean that B implies A. And this is exactly where you are lacking evidence.
@Baklava
Now you are REALLY changing the subject.
Now I've said this before, but I'll say it again for the newbies I am most definitely NOT a Bush supporter. I can't stand the guy. And I was TOTALLY and very vocally against going into Iraq. I'm just saying that I don't believe it was because of oil.
Now can I finish my glass of wine now and go to bed? (or at least lighten up a little)
____________
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 12:02 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 12:03, 24 Oct 2007.
|
I can't really get blamed for changing the subject cause it's my thread
Right up mate
Finish your wine and good night.
When you wake up, just tell me why do you think the Iraq war happened then? I know there's 70 theories (65 of which include oil) but I'm interested as to what your opinion is.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 12:03 PM |
|
Edited by Mytical at 12:17, 24 Oct 2007.
|
Go ahead, apparently you need to get some sleep. Didn't read all of my post apparently  . Stated that I never claimed he went in it JUST to make money. Though I doubt it is a coincidence he did either. As for me, I never take anything too seriously . I do love a good debate though.
I too am interested in hearing why you think the war started, and why it is still going on?
____________
Message received.
|
|
Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 12:27 PM |
|
|
Mytical, I read your post. I just didn't comment on that part. You said 90% because of oil. And no, I didn't take that literally, but simply meaning "a lot" of the reason.
Baklava, oh yea, it's your thread.
Why do I think we went into Iraq? I think it's because of the reason Bush said it was, because of WMDs. BUT, I repeat BUT.....I think there are several other factors. I think that WMDs were the determining factor though. Whether or not there really were WMDS is irrelevant. I really believe Bush believed that there were.
I've probably had a bit too much wine for this discussion, but here goes.
First, I believed then, and I STILL believe that Iraq had WMDs. But I absolutely did NOT think that justified invading Iraq.
Fact: Iraq did have WMDs at one time (for sure by the late 90s they still had them). To my knowledge there is no reason to believe they got rid of them. They for sure had them at one time, so where are they?????? That's still a very pertinent question. They had chemical weapons, and probably bio weapons. They had missiles capable of hitting Israel (which they used during the first gulf war). And they for sure were working on longer range missiles capable of hitting Europe.
I could go on and on about all the UN resolutions that Iraq ignored. I could on about the fools they made of the rest of the world. I could also mention that the original UN resolution that was backed by most countries of the world was still in force. And those resolutions and "demands" from the UN continued up until this second war started. But aside from all that, I still was totally against invading Iraq (when a few missiles or air strikes would have sufficed to send a message to Saddam that he had to let the inspectors do their job)
And just a note. MANY more countries would have backed the US if the US wasn't so damn impatient and had been willing to give the inspectors more time.
____________
|
|
Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
|
|
posted October 24, 2007 12:46 PM |
|
|
Now? Yes it is pretty much 90% about oil (possibly the largest untapped reserve out there), and the rest because there is no sane way out. . Now as for WMD, I am sure somebody in their army watches TV. As soon as it was mentioned, within hours, if they had any it was buried under miles of ground (or sand). They knew America would come looking for them, they would never keep them around.
Do I think that Bush believed there was WMD? Probably.
Now it is a moot point though. Any such would be long long gone.
I am not anti-Bush. I think he was misinformed, mislead, and is a scapegoat. Who just happens to be making money hand over fist.
____________
Message received.
|
|
Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
|
posted October 24, 2007 03:44 PM |
|
|
That's A Problem With Internet Goers
Everyone on the internet is quick to demand that someone else go and do the work to prove what they are saying is true.
"Prove it!"
"No you prove it! I asked you first!"
"Ha! See what I mean? I knew you didn't know what you're talking about!"
"No actually my claims are factual in nature."
In the end niether got up off their derriers to do the legwork or homework needed to prove their case. The only thing that was proven is that they both enjoy arguing for the sake of argument.
____________
Roses Are Red And So Am I
|
|
|
|
