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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Cheater or not?
Thread: Cheater or not? This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 10:26 AM
Edited by liophy at 10:28, 14 Nov 2007.

Cheater or not?

What would you think, if your opponent cast expert slow against you in the very beggining of the final battle?

The temp is Jebus, so in 9 out of 10 cases its suppose you have expert haste.

So you have to be either extremely stupid to cast slow, or you must know that the opponent doesnt have expert haste. And since my opponent is very good player, a veteran, i dont think he is that stupid...

The details of the battle are - the opponent doesnt have tactics to get near me and potentialy hit me with all his army. And he is first and he already waited with his archangels. So if i got mass haste it was going to be disaster for him.

So, what would you think? Should i give him the benefit of the doubt?

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 10:48 AM
Edited by liophy at 10:49, 14 Nov 2007.

To burn my spell? Mate, how many online games do you have?

I will burn it either way!If he has wait and cast after me, the result was goind to be completely different, and i was goind to burn my spell aswell.

And how may he move his creature where he need them, since my angels are speed 9, and all his army (except his angels, wich paused) are slowest!

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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2007 11:10 AM
Edited by Homer171 at 12:57, 14 Nov 2007.

That's funny U2 talking the same game right

I think he made mistake thats all. Waiting the first turn, not casting a spell, leaving own army vulnerable for attacks means often opponent having mind spells and your fastest is immune. In this case it's just gambling.
____________
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 11:48 AM

I dont want to be impolite, but... isnt it possible guys that have not idea whatsoever of the game, to think before they talk?

I asked you - how many games do you have online?

You are saying - with my units being slowed, his are faster... didnt you read what i said? even slowed, my archangels are speed 9, so all of his creatures are slower then my angels!!!!

And he will be able to move only with his poor 9 wyverns. And then it will be mine turn, i will cast haste and slaughter him.

If he wait and i cast haste first - yes, i will beat him with half of my army, but i am going to do that either way if i have haste. But the difference is, that he will cast slow after that, and at least some of my units will be caught by the slow. And most important - for the second round all of my units will be slowed.

It seems you dont have a lot of practice in online games. Because the casting of slow/haste is one of the basics of the final battle. And everybody knows whats the situation is.

And thats why it was very strange and unusual move, from such an experienced player.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 12:18 PM

Quote:
You admit that most likely by that time he would have already been decimated


No!!! i didnt admit that. Please, read my last post again!

He will be decimated in the case he cast slow initialy, because after that i will move with ALL of my creatures, not only half of them. And most important -  i will be with haste efect for the second round.

If he waited i will take turn only with some of my units and only in first round. Then he will cast me slow, than in the beggining of second round will cast haste and hit with ALL of his army.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2007 12:46 PM

Hehe, nice conversation.

Liophy, we need much more info here. A playername (at least on HCM) wouldnt hurt. What heroes, stats, speed, army did you have? What spells did he have?
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 12:47 PM

do you make difference between frenzy and berserk?

and do you remember what we were talking about from the beggining? that was exactly what all the topic is about - somehow he knew i didnt have expert air magic. He may open saves on second PC, he may use View Hero bug... i dont know.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted November 14, 2007 12:57 PM

Mytical...your replys sound pretty much like HEROES V, coz I have yet to see a ATB bar in Heroes 3.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 01:02 PM

Well, before the final conclusion is made i prefer not to point a finger. As i said, i may give him the benefit of the doubd. Sometimes even skilled players make silly mistakes.

My army: 3 AA, 4 A, 13 Crusaders, 6 R Grifins, 1 R grifin, 30 ogres (pandora), 9 monks

His army: 3 AA, 9 wyverns, 14 crusaders, 2 cavaliers, 9 zealots, 18 marksman, 30-40 pikes

He had 32-22-10-10 broghild, i was 12-16-9-8 level 18 Tazar. He had +2 speed.

Both expert earth, no other magic schools. No high magics, actually only level 1 magics. Both had slow. I had tactics, he didnt.

So he was first with AA 20 speed. He cast slow and paused. So it was my turn, and my army was in reach (tactics) to hit him at full if i got haste.

That was not the case sadly. So actually it turned out to be the right decision from him, but only providing i didnt have haste. So he gambled gaining almost no advantage, risking to loose big deal. And the odds was 1-10 against him (9 out of 10 games on Jebus you have expert haste).

So who bet 1 to 10 against you to win a dollar, when you may loose hundred dollars. You will make such a bet only if somehow you know your horse are going to win.

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pitsu
pitsu


Adventuring Hero
posted November 14, 2007 01:03 PM

3 possibilities that i could propose:

1. you had encountered his scout and casted an air magic spell from which he estimated your skill level.
2. He did a mis-click
3. You have a über-super-spell that he fears much more than mass haste and he tried to force you to cast mass haste instead of the über-super-spell.

____________

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 01:07 PM
Edited by liophy at 13:08, 14 Nov 2007.

Quote:
3 possibilities that i could propose:

1. you had encountered his scout and casted an air magic spell from which he estimated your skill level.
2. He did a mis-click
3. You have a über-super-spell that he fears much more than mass haste and he tried to force you to cast mass haste instead of the über-super-spell.



Pitsu, these are 3 very credible explanation. But:

1. No scout had encountered at all.
2. No misclicked. I asked him why, he answerede something like "i had something in mind"
3. I was spell power only 9, only 65 mana and he had expert resistence. No point to gamble against super magic.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2007 01:20 PM

I dont think he cheated. Ive tried this against pretty good players severel times with the one diffrence that I actually had exp haste.

The thing is you have just played for maybe 6 hours on high speed and suddenly you are in main battle. Often you dont take a good long thought about what to do but you just continue with the speed you have used in the past hours. And you make mistakes like I would say this is. With his stats he is pretty sure to win unless he makes a mistake like this, so if he had actually cheated there was no need to cast exp slow to get the victory.

Besides that the chance that Taz has air is smaller than many other mains. He only has 1 in air.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted November 14, 2007 01:29 PM
Edited by angelito at 13:31, 14 Nov 2007.

He had much higher stats, so mass shield is no good option.
He had +2 speed, so if both players are mass slowed, he has advantage.
If u have tactics (and placed all your units near his side), then u wouldn't need mass haste to reach him, mass slow would be fine aswell.
So if he waits without casting anything, you could cast mass slow and hit all his units without him being able to react. On his turn, he can't counter your mass slow, only cast mass slow aswell. But then you have already hit him badly...

So there were 2 facts / choices for him:
- if opponent has mass haste, I am dead anyway (esp. after seeing you got tactics), coz I don't have mass haste...
- if opponent does not have air magic, I have to prevent him from being able to hit my units without the need of a spell (coz of tactics)....only solution would be a spell like berzerk...or mass slow.

So I think mass slow was the only reasonable move to have a chance in that fight.

____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 01:37 PM

Quote:
If u have tactics (and placed all your units near his side), then u wouldn't need mass haste to reach him, mass slow would be fine aswell.
So if he waits without casting anything, you could cast mass slow and hit all his units without him being able to react. On his turn, he can't counter your mass slow, only cast mass slow aswell. But then you have already hit him badly...



Angelito - Ogres are speed 5- they cant reach, crusaders speed 6 cant reach. Monks speed 5 - will be caught befor they play...

So the only units i will play are angels and AA.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2007 01:44 PM
Edited by maretti at 13:52, 14 Nov 2007.

As I understand Liophy didnt place his units so that they could reach without haste and as liophy mentioned he couldnt reach with ogres anyway. Crusaders could reach a 2 hex unit. I asume the battle was in desert but even on grass I would say massslow was a mistake.

What he should do is wait. If Liophy cast haste he can counter it and hurt him badly round 2. If Liophy cast slow he can cast slow aswell and will be fastest also for round 2. Liophy wont hurt him badly because of weaker hero and far from all troops can reach. At some point he will be forced to cast because of the blindtreat but that will be after exchange of shots that will benefit him because he has better shooters. The best solution will be shield imo, because Taz cant really hurt him after that and the vic will be secure, with slow he runs a risk of the counter.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 01:45 PM

Quote:
So there were 2 facts / choices for him:
- if opponent has mass haste, I am dead anyway (esp. after seeing you got tactics), coz I don't have mass haste...
- if opponent does not have air magic, I have to prevent him from being able to hit my units without the need of a spell (coz of tactics)....only solution would be a spell like berzerk...or mass slow.



If i cast mass haste he will intercept me before i can play with ogres(wich is my only hope to turn things in my favor) and even before monks.  Because he is speed 10 with his wyverns.

And then - there is the second round. Its not the same if i am under efect of haste in the beggining of second round. Then i will cast him slow and take full round with ALL my army.

So instead of 1 round with half of my army, i am goind to play 2 rounds with ALL of my army.

There is BIG, BIG difference

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 01:49 PM

Sure, battle was on dessert - 1.2.7, cant remember for sure.

I didnt want to put my army in reach of his, exactly because of this - he would have cast slow and hit me with all his army (+2 speed). And the stats were going to finish me off.

Actually, he would have cast the slow after i pause with my AA and A, and would be the same. The game was almost 100% his win.

The thing is - did he know i dont have haste, or not. The thing is did he see my hero skills, or not. Is he cheater or not. And not the outcome  of the game, the game was doomed.

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maretti
maretti


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted November 14, 2007 02:02 PM

As i stated, I dont believe he cheated. He didnt need to play it like this to win and ive seen others do this and be punished for it.

Actually what he should do is wait with the spell but hit with the AAs round one. 2 implos with brown orb on AAs and wyverns could give Liophy the win so better use the AAs while you have them.
____________
Crag rules, Orrin and Ivor suck

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted November 14, 2007 02:08 PM

Quote:
The thing is - did he know i dont have haste, or not. The thing is did he see my hero skills, or not. Is he cheater or not. And not the outcome  of the game, the game was doomed.
But the outcome of the fight is important to see if he gained any advantage of a possible "cheat".
As I said...I don't see any cheating, and I don't see the "mass slow" as a BIG mistake. Not too many options for him....
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted November 14, 2007 02:08 PM

Well, if he cheat, that might helped him in the building of the game - in order to be 33-22

After this is achieved, no need to cheat anymore unless you dont realise you are going to get caught.

He is experience player, i dont believe he will not know when to cast slow and haste in general. And he took probably 5 minutes of thinking before he cast this slow!!! I even asked him if he is there, whats wrong and etc...

I just cant believe that he made a mistake. But offcource, i may be biased.

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