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| Thread: Gedankenexperiments of Might and Magic: Part I - The Races |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2008 12:17 AM |
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Edited by Tobius at 16:32, 22 Jan 2008.
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Gedankenexperiments of Might and Magic: Part I - The Races
Hey folks,
I am from Germany and about one month ago we started thinking there about Heroes VI, too. The discussions there are still hot, but we decided to do the next step. That is why I am here now. I want to present the provisional result and I want to invite you to join in the discussion about this new concept. Speaking of 'new' I must admit that I did not read all the 60 pages here. So if there is already something like our 'German' concept I am sorry. But I think it should be original enough to add some fresh ideas on this topic. The original discussion is hundreds of posts long by now which is why I will summarize the current state of the first part of the concept. The whole concept is four parts long:
1st part: The Races
2nd part: The Heroes
3rd part: The Magic
4th part: The Gameplay
It is possible that one part covers parts of another, but there should be no problem to discuss each topic by its own. I think, it is the only way to keep the things clearly laid out. Well, HC is much bigger than our little German community what is one motivation for me to post this concept here. I hope that it can be enhanced in a faster and more effective way if more and more people join in the discussion.
Herewith you are sincerely invited!
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The Basics
1. General Facts:
1.1 We probably leave the old world and enter a completely new one.
1.2 In this new world the old 'factions' are replaced by new 'races'.
1.3 These factions could be: Humans, Elves, Orcs, etc.
1.4 Each of the races has an unique town.
1.5 Every town has an unique build-tree so there are no fixed towns anymore.
1.6 The build-tree enables various possibilties to develop the town.
1.7 The towns themselves have several tiers.
1.8 You cannot build every possible town structure because the build-place is limited ( might be more build-place available the higher the twon tier is).
1.9 There are different general directions for town structures imaginable.
2. Creature development:
2.1 There are several creature-tiers
2.2 There are different creatures to choose from
2.3 So you decide which creatures you want to recruit for your game youself
2.4 The traditional upgrades are replaced by add-ons for the armies to provide the enhancements which are available in specific town structures.
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Well, you see everything is possible. I hope we can work on it. Besides it is necessary to create build-trees for each race as well as enhancements, specials and much more.
I looking forward to an exciting discussion!
Greetings
Tobius
Special thanks to: Little Imp, kitty, Alaric, grumpy old man, Lord Otto, Der Mentat, Incubus, Frifix, Dragonhunter, Mad Jack, Shard of Truth
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 20, 2008 12:36 AM |
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Nice, but I lost you at the point where you merged Inferno and Necropolis. If there was something I hated about Heroes IV, it was that Necropolis and Inferno were joined together... 
I'm also not all for the idea of merging Academy and Haven, and Sylvan and Dungeon...
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2008 01:17 AM |
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Edited by Tobius at 01:25, 20 Jan 2008.
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I think it is some kind of controversial to replace the old factions, but in my eyes it is necessary because the franchise needs new impulses to live on. It cannot be always the same old story with still more factions, creatures, artifacts, etc. We decided to do something really different with the new races. Besides I agree with you that 'Necropolis' in Hereos IV was not good anyway. But for me it simply lacked a coherent context.
The Zombies of this concept, for example, are not the boring undead dumb creatures. They are much more the mind controlled vodooistic originals. Add the new context of a mysterious race that tries to connect with the 'Counterworld' and you get a consistent reason why there are imps next to skeletons that were in different factions in former heroes games. I think what you have to do is to discard the idea of undead creatures as a own faction. For me it was even more implausibly in former heroes games how these brainless Undeads could form a functioning faction. However, with this new concept it is a much more coherent atmosphere than ever before, isn't it?
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 20, 2008 01:24 AM |
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I like some of the concepts you brought, but it is not a Heroes game.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 20, 2008 01:29 AM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 01:30, 20 Jan 2008.
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Quote:
For me it was even more implausibly in former heroes games how these brainless Undeads could form a functioning faction.
Liches and Vampires aren't brainless. Well, okay, maybe the former, but they do have sentience. Is it implausible that undead spellcasters can form a working faction out of their brainless slaves?
Otherwise nice work, though agree ^^ with Daystar.
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted January 20, 2008 01:32 AM |
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Quote:
Liches and Vampires aren't brainless. Well, okay, maybe the former, but they do have sentience. Is it implausible that undead spellcasters can form a working faction out of their brainless slaves?
First, Liches may not have, well, living brain matter, but their brain still functions by necromancy. Second of all, It is absolutely plausible that Undead can be a faction, because the intelligence is in the leadership, not the henchmen (or things).
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Steel Yourself for War
Next Set: Mirrodin
Beseiged
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 20, 2008 01:35 AM |
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Gah, that is exactly what I just said with different wording.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 20, 2008 01:44 AM |
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Quote:
I think what you have to do is to discard the idea of undead creatures as a own faction
I think what you have to do is look at all of us Necropolis fans on HC and try to read our thoughts about changing our favourite faction into a bunch of demon slaves. 
I'm with Cepheus and SoZ here.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2008 01:53 AM |
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OK, now I know that Necropolis seems to be extremely popular at HC, but nevertheless I think, it is still coherent race within undead and demonic creatures. Yep, it is quiet different from former factions, but this is the essence of the concept: new ways in almost every section of the game. If you got a better idea, instead of merging undead and demons in one race that is still compatible to the concept then submit it, please.
Apart from that I think there are still more controversial changes like the choice between creatures, for example.
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted January 20, 2008 04:54 AM |
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Well, if its not the firey demons, but the black-hearted gargoyle-looking, stenchy, foul, evil demons, then I say what the heck .
@Ceph- Well, two bullets kill something faster than one.
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Steel Yourself for War
Next Set: Mirrodin
Beseiged
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Wulfstan8182
Famous Hero
, eh?
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posted January 20, 2008 05:07 AM |
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no, i hate the idea. you are recreating  H4 in  H5. which is really really bad. Elrath shall not be claimed by Axeoth! In the name of Father Sky, and Mother Earth! Griffin Eternal!
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted January 20, 2008 05:28 AM |
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Asha uses all.
Darn it, everytime I think that it sounds wrong! I seriously have problems...
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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sith_of_ziost
Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
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posted January 20, 2008 06:21 AM |
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antipaladin
Promising
Legendary Hero
of Ooohs and Aaahs
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posted January 20, 2008 09:24 AM |
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actually the idea is nice,i think it be relevotinary to make that tier 1.1 1.2 1.3 and such..it might be a terrific idea..
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types in obscure english
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 20, 2008 09:53 AM |
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This idea isn't bad at all. you have some good concepts here.
the idea of combining nercopolis and inferno has been done before and failed with Heroes 4, and in a similar vain, combining academy and haven together seems to be facing the same problems. however, your combination of dungeon and sylvan could work.
Here's an idea, Try and combine the races that are both good and evil, for example, combining Nercopolis and academy.
also, i always felt that werewolves would fit with sylvan a bit more, even a darker version.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted January 20, 2008 10:42 AM |
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Quote:
I think it is some kind of controversial to replace the old factions, but in my eyes it is necessary because the franchise needs new impulses to live on. It cannot be always the same old story with still more factions, creatures, artifacts, etc. We decided to do something really different with the new races. Besides I agree with you that 'Necropolis' in Hereos IV was not good anyway. But for me it simply lacked a coherent context.
While I am a warm supporter of evolving the game, and I think the work you present here - from what we've seen so far - is very thorough and impressive, I must admit I'm kinda surprised there had to be more than five replies to your thread before Heroes IV even was mentioned. I was never much of a fan of Heroes IV - it had it's good sides, but I'm afraid that what you present us here recreates very much what I consider was the bad sides. Let me explain further.
Mixing of factions
Heroes IV took the step of mixing Inferno and Necropolis, under the common name of Death. From a logical point of view, this actually makes pretty good sense. However, from a traditional role-playing point of view (boy, haven't I said this many times before ) this is not natural at all. This is because the RP view of Inferno is quite different than the religious aspect: Where in religion, Inferno represents the world of death (and hence goes well with Necropolis, literally the City of the Dead), in role-playing, the Infernal plane is simply a plane sepparate from the material plane, inhabited by the Infernal (Diabolic) creatures, and thus has nothing to do with the Undead. On a sidenote, in traditional RPG "lore" (i.e. D&D and off-spins), there's a strict devision between Diabolic and Demonic creatures, something which was never implemented in the Heroes series.
To put things a bit on the edge, mixing Inferno and Necropolis comes as natural for a RPG player as it would be to a "religious" person to mix Inferno with Haven (I state religious in quotes because I don't necessarily mean a person with deep religious faith, but refer to a person who view the fantasy world in terms of religious (christian) lore). From a logical point of view similar to that above, you could argue that upon death, you will go either to Haaven or Hell, and thus Haven (the celestial aspect) and Inferno in essence both represent Death and should be in the same faction. Which this logic is no more or no less flawed than the one above, from a more subjective point of view, the mixing of these two factions would just seem plain wrong. In the same way, for a RPG player (like most of the gamers are, let's face it), mixing of Inferno and Necropolis is simply not a good idea, because although periferically related through their mythological origins, they represent two vastly different aspects of death.
Inferno and Necropolis might be the most criminal example here, but i nthe same way, mixing Academy and Haven or Sylvan and Dungeon is a very bad idea to me - not that I cannot follow the logical reasoning behind it, I just think it's the wrong decision to make. I'm very certain it will take out the proper atmosphere of all those four factions, and make them end up like a mumbo-jumbo mix of different alignments and philosophies that from a less rational and more ideological view-point has nothing to do with each other.
Multiple creatures on each level
The next thing I'd like to adress is the prospect of having multiple creatures on each level - and having you choose one of them at level up. I think this was an idea that was proven very well to be bad with Heroes IV - simply for the reason, that far, far too many times, you'd end up choosing the same combination every time. In Heroes 4, this ment that almost half the creauteres never or rarely came into play, which is simply a waste. Furthermore, I think all Heroes IV players will aknowledge the fact that it was tremendously annoying to conquer a town of your own allignment only to discover that the enemy had chosen the other alternative that you had - while this does not necessarily speak against this model, it does necessate a means for tearing down structures to redo choices of other players.
I know that having to chose between several options on paper makes the game more tactical, as you have to make a decision according to your position in game. Unfortunately, this very rarely works in reality. Often, one unit will simply end up being far superior to the other, and you will choose that one each time - just remember Heroes IV Naga vs. Genie or Cyclops vs. Ogre Mage. Of course, even if careful balancing was applied, I think you still would have a tendancy of ending up running the same track each time - but maybe that's just my belief. Personally, I like to see possibilities rather than inhibitions, and having to chose only 1 of 4 possible units is not favorable for me in that light. I must admit I like better the current system with more creature layers to choose from, and then you'll have to chose based on various factors whether you will build early the expensive but more powerful high-level creatures, or rather the more cheap low-level creatures.
And why is it, that we always need to have several level 1 (and 2) units, but only one level 3, 4 (and 5) unit? It's not like the level 1 and 2 units are the most fun to play with, so I don't really see how this enhances gameplay.
No upgrades
I know you have not fully adressed the concept of these "extensions" to the units, but I will still leave a remark on units without upgrades. I must admit that I think it's important to learn by mistake, and I think the majority of Heroes fans have said that they don't like the no-ugprade option - there are polls lying about, but I haven't dug out any yet to confirm this statement.
It is my personal oppinion that removing upgrades, more than anything, reduces the strategic element of the game. I think the current Heroes V system, where basic building is relatively cheap and upgrade only comes at a relatively high cost works very well, because you have to make an important decision in order to upgrade - and get the really powerful units - which will often inhibit building of new structures, giving larger amounts of units, because of resource demands.
All that being said, however, I would like to repeat that it's nice to see a fresh suggestion which seems to carefully worked over.
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What will happen now?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted January 20, 2008 02:07 PM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 14:09, 20 Jan 2008.
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First off I'd like to compliment the innovation in this project. Unfortunately, and this is VERY hard for me to admit, I have to agree with Alcibiades.
Mixing Academy with Haven and Sylvan with Dungeon might seem like good ideas, but in my humble opinion it would work simply better if the factions were simply allied - you don't need to mix them for it. While I DO like the idea of multiple creatures to choose from, again I have to side with alci - one always tends to be more favoured than the other.
That aside I'm quite in favour of tradition, that tradition being the preservasion of the 4 most basic towns that Heroes of might and magic started with: Haven, Stronghold, Sylvan, and Dungeon. Usually extended with Academy, Necropolis, and Inferno.
Those are, in my opinion, ever since Heroes 3, the seven most BASIC towns that should NEVER ever be missing from this game. And by mixing Sylvan with Dungeon - two completely different concepts - you ruin a whole faction. You could argue it matches due to both being elves, but I never liked the concept of elves taking over Dungeon anyway.
Of course we don't know how exactly you envisioned the style and atmosphere of the factions, neither do we know much about the magic system you'd envision, although I suspect every faction would have a unique magic system, as in H4.
Now mind you, unlike some others I don't believe basing your game on an older installmen is a bad thing. H5 was based on H3, and it proved to be a good thing. Unfortunately, while H4 DID have some good concepts, it was generally considered far worse than H3. TOO innovative one could say, tearing away some great concepts and replacing them with less entertaining ones. So trying to do the same thing to H5 will inevitably lead to bad reactions, I'm afraid.
One thing I do support is limited building space, though  But I wonder aside from creature dwellings what you would restrict?
And on a personal basis, I don't really like the race-based factions. Actually, I think I'm going to make a poll on this.
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Tobius
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 20, 2008 08:24 PM |
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Edited by Tobius at 20:29, 20 Jan 2008.
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Clearing up
With this post I want to clear up what for me seem to be misunderstandings.
Upgrades
I want to quote Charles Watkins, because I could not find any better expressions:
"Creature upgrades have become a popular part of the game, but the idea of replacing creatures by upgrading dwellings is all wrong. What’s supposed to be going on there anyway? Are Red Dragons being painted with black, magic-proof paint to make them into Black Dragons? (I don’t even want to think about how girl Genies become boy Master Genies.) A simpler and more credible implementation would be to allow each army to have various add-ons that provide the enhancements. For instance, when Dwarves visit the Armory, the player buys them Battle Suits so they become Battle Dwarves. And maybe there’s another place to add a Lord’s Mace to make them into Dwarf Lords. The point is that these new powers would be additions and not transformations. If the Battle Dwarves lose their Battle Suits, or want to add some plain Dwarves to the army, they go back to being Dwarves. Each base creature would have several such add-ons and these would be reflected in their renderings. (Get out the black paint again.) Provision for these various effects is already in the code."
If you expand this basic idea of the enhancements, than you can increase the tactically side of the game even further.
Mixing factions
The premise of the wohle concept is to evolve the Heroes franchise with giving the players much more freedom in playing the game. This is inspired by other games like Morrowind which show us how much freedom is possible, and more important how much fun you can have this way. The aim is that the player should be able to play the Heroes he wants to play. The limitations of fixed factions are just disturbing within this context of a greater freedom. This concept does not force the player do to anything. The only limitation is the race you choose, and these races are not simply thrown together factions of former Heroes games. They are a step forward to a more tactical and strategical gameplay. We do not speak of Inferno or Haven anymore, because they are not existing anylonger - they are completely overhault. The idea of changing details of old factions and adding more and more upgrades, artifects, etc. is all wrong. If Heroes shall live on to the next decade bigger changes have to come. This concept tries to show one possibility to follow this route.
You have to leave the old imaginations of fixed factions behind if you really want to comprehend this concept. Of course, the current Hævok are controversial, but everything can change. The Humans, for example, are not juts a mix of Academy and Haven. They are of much more epic scale, because they stand for a whole race and not only an alignment. Noboday says that mages and clerics have to be best friends, but in wartime (and Heroes is definitely a game of armies) they fight together.
Multiple creatures on each level
The principle of choosing the creatres you want for your army correlates with the premise of a greater freedom. New tactical depth is the consequence. But, of course, it is a question of balancing. The current concept allows 10 combinations on tiers 1 and 2 plus 4 combinations on the higher tiers. That is a total of 32 different combinations if we regard only the tiers. If we look further to a 7 stack army we have incredible 6400 possible combinations. That is what I call diversity. How to balance this? Well, I would suggest to balance the creatures tier-wise, because you will never choose between a Titan and a Sacristan, but between a Titan and an Angel. If the creatures of each tier are well balanced (what includes the specials as well) then there is no problem about the 6400 possibilities to set your 7 stacks, because the choice of the creature is depending on your situation right in the game.
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Wulfstan8182
Famous Hero
, eh?
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posted January 20, 2008 09:22 PM |
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oh, thanks for clearing that up. to quote Daystar, "You brought in some good concepts in there, but it is not a Heroes game anymore." It just doesn't fit in with the rest of the series. Let me tell you what my opinion is on these topics.
Creatures.
The idea of HoMM is that you have about 7 different tiers and each has an upgraded version. 2, in the case of TotE. So, you said that the creatures are "transformed" into differant creatures. It does not happen in this mod, for sure, but in the actual game it does not happen either, well, at least from my point of view. An upgrade is a unit based on the base creature but is far more powerful. it's not like the same dwarf spends time working out in a fitness club and then comes out as an upgrade, it's just... well, you get the idea, units are replaced by more powerful ones but with the same idea.
Mixing Factions
Although i like your idea of having a lot of freedom for a player, it, again is not for a HoMM series. H3 had the idea of different races coming together to one town. It was based on the creature's habitat, alignment, and theme(magic, might, nature, etc.). H4 brought in a lot of confusion. Since undeads were raised from dead units and demons are actually aliens(NWC said that, a while ago) which look like our classical "hell punks", how can they fit together? Undead isn't just there it is summoned by a powerful mage or is a form of an ever-living human. Demons, on the other hand came to every single HoMM game at the beggining of it, and were prisoned in Hell. H5, had the idea of races, which i didn't like in first place, but then sort of got along with it, "Heroes 5 towns on the other hand more represent humanoid societies, where one race dwells with a selection of associated beasts."- as written by alcibiades in the faction-maker guide here. Grouping Haven and Academy works out well, but Haven is a more "religious" faction. Haven is based primarily on knights, while academy is purely mages. Even though they seem to balance each other out, they are unmixable. Sylvan-Dungeon, this one is i am very confused about. They were enemies in every single game, and now they are allianced. there are many warfares, Elves vs. Dark Elves, Nature vs. Underground, Green/Gold dragon vs. Black/Red dragon. you see, they just don't get along with each other. The only faction i don't really see any problems with, are the Orcs.
Multiple Creatures on each Level
Having lots of freedom is fun, but after a while you sort of have just 1 combo of creatures which is just overpowered compared to the others. 6400 combinations... at least half of them would be gone as players mostly use one type of each unit. And people only use certain strategy which involve same tiers for certain situations. A big diversity is good, but not for HoMM.
That's what i think about this. It is just my opinion although i think that many people would agree on this.Your ideas a great, but for a different TBS game, just not HoMM. And sorry for being so negative last time, it's just that i hate H4, and for some reason whenever i see someone proposing less than 7 tiers, and each one having different possibilities, i remember H4, and how much i hated it.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted January 20, 2008 09:51 PM |
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I think the ideas might be nice, but not as Heroes sequel, but as different TBS strategy game.
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