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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Interpretations
Thread: Heroes IV: Interpretations This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 21, 2001 07:07 AM

Heroes IV: Interpretations



As members at Heroes Community, we know that some very drastic changes have been made from Heroes III to the upcoming Heroes of Might and Magic IV. I’m sure that we agree with most of the changes made to Heroes of Might and Magic III, there has to be some, otherwise you don’t have a new game, do you. Interpreting aspects of the highly detailed Heroes IV even before it comes out is a difficult job. The only notable tools we have, is our knowledge and experience of the previous HoMM’s, whatever ones they may be. Since many aspects of HoMM IV have been derived from the ever popular Heroes II game, the new features will consequently be a mix of both. There are many good and bad points to the inclusion of older and seemingly ‘out of date’ games like Heroes II, most of them being positive. In turn many of the aspects from Heroes of Might and Magic III could possibly be too recent and fresh in our minds to bring back, apart from the usual ones, of course.

A new feature that was introduced in Heroes III and in many peoples minds a good inclusion was the Grail. The use of this structure has been included into HoMM IV. That is a definite good point for me. The Grail has excellent capabilities, which could even act as a castle within a castle, if you know what I mean. (Given the statistics exerted from interviews) A bad inclusion from Heroes of Might and Magic III, according to me is the spells and hero movement (In battle) takes up the turn, not one allowing for another, as in the spell is the turn, or the physical attack is the duration of the turn. In my opinion, in lower levels heroes should be able to cast spells and attack; or move in the same turn, since they are so undermanned and it is easy to lose them early in the game.

Heroes II has offered many good new features such as spells, creatures, and use of town combinations. The combination of the aspects of HoMM 3, HoMM2 and the new features, Heroes IV appears to be all it seems to be in the interview. That is not always the case. Although we know that things have been included, we do not know exactly what they will do on the adventure map or in battle.

Will things like having an isometric game view help the game?
Good Points:
Enables you to view the whole area and be in an excellent position to see exactly what line your opponent is on.
Makes turning around in a full circle possible, as you can see the whole creature, not just the side.
Has the capability to enhance the graphics of the creatures and heroes that are partaking in battle.
A siege will now look more lifelike in terms of the view, and how the war machines work. Previously, it was just a small are, and the war machines shot straight. They can now be moved from side to side.
The battlefield has once again been enlarged for maximum movement and playability.

Bad Points:
After changing the view, some creatures can be mistaken for turning the other way, when they are really facing you, but this really is a minor setback.
There will probably be no distinct wall shape where the castle starts or ends, which is also a very minor setback.

On paper, the isometric game view has much stronger good points than bad points, and also has much more of them. But how will this interpret into the game. I know it is too early to tell what will happen, but it is not too early to start speculating on how the game will turn out by the use of screenshots.
Will it help the way we view the screen, has it got the same components that made the Heroes series so special?

It is all about perspective for battle scenes. How would you like to be able to view your army and their doings? For many people, it may be a hard step moving from the landscape to isometric view. In turn, this could drastically change the way we see the battle screens. More view, larger area, and more 3D graphics. But when it comes down t it, will it have the same affect in the game as it has had on paper? Only time will tell.

The reversed method can be used on the infamous Dragon Golem: Pictured here.

Wanted Bounties: $10,000 LOL

Most people here on Heroes Community think that the introduction of a mechanical creature into a fantasy game was very bad news. Especially for the veterans who had owned Heroes of Might and Magic I, which had never had a mechanical unit.
At first sight, the Dragon Golem appears to be a very mechanical looking-spider with four legs, as Still had described it earlier. Beauty is only skin deep. This time, it is the other way around. Have we really even given the Dragon Golem half a chance? No. Here are some bad points and some good points submitted by fans over the months about the Dragon Golem.

Good Points:
“Simply because HOMM is a game based on fantasy. And dragon golems are definitely a fantastical creature...”-MaSTERgenie
“Let it stay! The forces of nature gotta have some things to hate and fight! The dragon golem is the perfect machine for this... “-Preserver
The Dragon Golem adds some variety into a very fantasy and living game. The Gold Golem is also mechanical, but crafted by mages. Both are suitable for the Academy and Heroes IV.-ThE HyDrA
hmmm...come to think of it there was a game out years ago called Fantasy General. The term "fantasy" in this game was not restricted to Tolkienesque creatures...there were many robotic creations.
Maybe the creators want a free hand to include anything "fantastic".-Oh_Smeg


Bad Points:
“It's ridiculous dude, a stone-age look-alike guy with glasses sitting in a dragon that has what seems to be springs and mechanic joints? And the teeth like nails? That is not fantasy, that's a robot!!”-Carz
Maybe 3DO needs a holiday...it isn't fantasy.... -Oh_Smeg
The whole idea of Dragon Golems is wrong. It is the step towards Bike Kings riding motorbikes swinging a chainsaw. -Holger
they are a little to fantasy to me. i know a lot of creatures in the game have a little something of other real or mystical creatures.-DarkTitan

How can we judge a creature so harshly when the animations, game play, and way it affects the game has not been confirmed, or hardly even talked about! There is a certain comment, which Hexa exerted which explains the whole Dragon Golem saga in one sentence. Lets all first play the game and than write off the Dragon Golem. Perhaps we'll all grow to love it ... or something!@

That is really right on the money. Everybody who is against the Dragon Golem is really judging a book by its cover. It may not have appeared in Fantasy, but isn’t this also a game where Iron Golems were once fought-against? Mages have the power to create mechanical enhanced creature, just as they did with the Golem. The only difference is that it is more notably mechanical. Which in some people’s eyes makes a whole lot of difference.

As you can see, there are still many, many aspects that can be thought over and interpreted into the game. Is the new Magic system worth the trouble? Will heroes fit into real battle with creatures? All are very valid questions, which can be interpreted with hours of knowledge and Heroes game play over the years. We are really all experts, stretching our knowledge to our full potential. Last year, we hadn’t heard of HoMM4. Last month the creature line-up was very much up in the air. Last week a new interview was performed. Yesterday, we came a step closer to finalising the creature line-ups. I wonder what we will know tomorrow.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted November 21, 2001 02:14 PM
Edited By: Jenova on 21 Nov 2001

Who cares? I don't like its (Dragon golem) design.. Looks mechanical and it has a geek riding it. They could redesign it without the geek and make it have less nuts and bolts and nails and I won't say a word.

The bottom line is, I don't care whether the unit is good or not, I just don't like its "design" or "look". Just like how some people think the Vampire lord looks wimpy.

When it comes to mechanized units in a fantasy game, NWC received quite a heated response when they first tried to introduce the "Forge" in HOMM3 expansion..* Why shouldn't they now?

* Of course, in the end we were given the unimaginitive Conflux instead (yeah let's just collect together all the past units we didn't bring back and every elemental and slap it all together to make a new town). That was the most uninspired piece of work NWC ever came up with.. until they started milking the Heroes franchise with the Chronicles series and other rehashes (*cough* SOD *cough* H3 Complete)
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 22, 2001 10:29 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 22 Nov 2001

Jenova..


"Who cares? I don't like its (Dragon golem) design.. Looks mechanical and it has a geek riding it. They could redesign it without the geek and make it have less nuts and bolts and nails and I won't say a word."

Yes, but the fact is that it does have all of those nuts and bolts and King Magnus riding in it. So you do care. You  are obviously against it, and would like it changed. This, may i remind you is an example, like the isometric game view.

"The bottom line is, I don't care whether the unit is good or not, I just don't like its "design" or "look". Just like how some people think the Vampire lord looks wimpy."

You don't care? Would you have rather picked another creature that you liked better for the Academy, or would you have stuck with the Dragon Golem? Vampire looks wimpy-possibly-but do you know how it attacks, moves? No you don't. It's movements could even be better than the ones in Heroes II.

"When it comes to mechanized units in a fantasy game, NWC received quite a heated response when they first tried to introduce the "Forge" in HOMM3 expansion..* Why shouldn't they now?"

Did you like the Forge town in the screenshots no you wouldn't have. But it could have turned out OK. Plus this Dragon Golem is one creature. You're talking about a whole town! Yes, a heated response is what the Dragon Golem is getting-but how is it going to turn out? We are judging it by frozen images. Not in action. It could turn out to be one of the best creatures in the game for all we know.

"* Of course, in the end we were given the unimaginitive Conflux instead (yeah let's just collect together all the past units we didn't bring back and every elemental and slap it all together to make a new town). That was the most uninspired piece of work NWC ever came up with.. until they started milking the Heroes franchise with the Chronicles series and other rehashes (*cough* SOD *cough* H3 Complete)"

Yes. Did you like the initial screenshots? It was quite creative when you saw it in still. But when you played it, it was an overall bad town according to you. Why couldn't this be the opposite with the Dragon Golem?

So I take it you would not care if the game view is ismetric or normal then?
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted November 22, 2001 06:06 PM

i agree w/everything that was said except...

this:
"Did you like the Forge town in the screenshots no you wouldn't have. But it could have turned out OK."

LOL! you did not just say that!!! ok, so you're saying that zombies with chainsaws would have been ok?!?!  RIIIGHT, whatever you say.

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 24, 2001 12:01 AM

Again, Camelnor, that is only a creature, and you can't judge it by what you see in the screenshots.

It is more than that. The animation. None of the creatures look really special when they're not moving. That is also a reason i'm against the creature verdict thread. That is a 'look judging thread' which means they don't give it a chance to get moving. Also, the way the creatures attack is really important. The Hydra looked extremely good when it attacked in Heroes II and III. But when it walked in Heroes III it looked a bit lost. Opinions can change if you look into them long enough.

OK. Moving on. As we can see by the information that has been transferred to us, Heroes of Might and Magic IV is a large step up from Heroes III. Many things have changed.

-Heroes in Combat
-Riding creatures
-Isometric Game view
-New map sizes
-Castle structures
-New spell system
-No spellpower, attack, defence
-New skills
-New hero abilities
-No hero needed in an army
-Creatures can move when gurarding something

Please point any more out to me, but that is enough to have a significant impact on the way we play Heroes of Might and Magic IV, and the question is, will all these special 'new and improved' features actually benefit the game, or will it hinder it?

New skills- they have the abilities to change combat, and they way we approach it, and that hasn't happened with as great affect in previous series.
It really could have a major effect, when you com bine all the new elements up, on the way we play the game, and i am asking if you think it will be better for the game?

The Dragon Golem and isometric game view were just examples of new apsects to the game, i have listed nearly all of them here.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted November 24, 2001 07:34 AM
Edited By: Jenova on 24 Nov 2001

About the Conflux, when I saw it before it released I was already skeptical. It wasn't really the design (except the Phoenix which I liked better in HOMM2) it was the idea that they just gathered old units and slapped them together instead of thinking up better ideas.

As for the Dragon Golem, sure it might move good, or might work good, but it doesn't look good (IMO) and if its looks were changed it can STILL move and perform good.

"You don't care? Would you have rather picked another creature that you liked better for the Academy, or would you have stuck with the Dragon Golem? Vampire looks wimpy-possibly-but do you know how it attacks, moves? No you don't. It's movements could even be better than the ones in Heroes II."

I never had a problem with Vampire Lords (I never really paid any attention to how it looked). The group complaining about Vampires I am not part of. As for the DG.. It wouldn't have mattered. I would have taken the Titan anyway because I prefer a shooter, and I've always loved Titans since H2.

"So I take it you would not care if the game view is ismetric or normal then?"

I never had any problem with the new view. In fact, I think the perspective looks better isometric. Other people might not like it, but I don't see what problems there are.. It doesn't really affect combat. Sure they might not all be facing the right direction, but I think their unit number is in a different color so you can tell each side apart. I don't think backstabbing is in the game.

"Yes. Did you like the initial screenshots? It was quite creative when you saw it in still. But when you played it, it was an overall bad town according to you. Why couldn't this be the opposite with the Dragon Golem?"

It wasn't the design that bothered me, it was the lack of imagination. I actually liked the way the elementals looked and moved (especially the one that seemed to teleport its way accross although in reality it was only walking). The Phoenix however I didn't like, but I didn't mind it so much, it was just a tad less powerful than other Level 7s. Sprites, Phoenix, and Elementals. Just a collection of past units which don't belong to a town yet.. Before it released, I liked the look of the town view, but I liked pretty much every town design so that wasn't saying much. I forget which other units it had, but my overall reaction was that the town was underpowered, although I don't admit to be an expert in H3 so it may be my lack of experience.
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 25, 2001 07:54 AM

"About the Conflux, when I saw it before it released I was already skeptical. It wasn't really the design (except the Phoenix which I liked better in HOMM2) it was the idea that they just gathered old units and slapped them together instead of thinking up better ideas."

OK, but how does sloppy-putting together with creatures relate to the Dragon Golem's appearance? As you said, the phoenix's artistry was quite good. The idea for the Dragon Golem is not a bad one by me, just different. There needs to be variety in a game, or it is all the same. Just because we have not experienced a metallic looking creature before, it doesn't mean it is going to be bad.

"As for the Dragon Golem, sure it might move good, or might work good, but it doesn't look good (IMO) and if its looks were changed it can STILL move and perform good."

It's looks were actually changed from this less-machanical looking dinosaur to what you see know. It still doesn't look 'good'. OK. It's your opinion. But just give it a chance though. It may not be what it turns out to be in the screenshots.....

"I never had a problem with Vampire Lords (I never really paid any attention to how it looked). The group complaining about Vampires I am not part of. As for the DG.. It wouldn't have mattered. I would have taken the Titan anyway because I prefer a shooter, and I've always loved Titans since H2."

Never really paud any attention to how it looked... What has changed that with the Dragon Golem? Of course you just would have chosen the one that looked 'better' in your opinion, the Titan (Doesn't look too flash if you ask me) and left the Dragon Golem out so you wouldn't have to see it. Out of sight out of mind.

"I never had any problem with the new view. In fact, I think the perspective looks better isometric. Other people might not like it, but I don't see what problems there are.. It doesn't really affect combat. Sure they might not all be facing the right direction, but I think their unit number is in a different color so you can tell each side apart. I don't think backstabbing is in the game."

That's what i said. You don't care which ine it would ahve been. As you say, the perspective is better in isometric view, but if there was a chance of it being isometric or normal view, you would n't care which one was chosen.
They are facing the right direction. You remember in Heroes III, that the creatures sometimes had to turn around then attack, then turn around the other way again. Well, isometric game view has eliminated this problem.

It wasn't the design that bothered me, it was the lack of imagination. I actually liked the way the elementals looked and moved (especially the one that seemed to teleport its way accross although in reality it was only walking). The Phoenix however I didn't like, but I didn't mind it so much, it was just a tad less powerful than other Level 7s. Sprites, Phoenix, and Elementals. Just a collection of past units which don't belong to a town yet.. Before it released, I liked the look of the town view, but I liked pretty much every town design so that wasn't saying much. I forget which other units it had, but my overall reaction was that the town was underpowered, although I don't admit to be an expert in H3 so it may be my lack of experience.

OK. So you think that the Dragon Golem is unimaginative? Ah, now it has to do with the animation of the creatures. This of which we have not yet seen from the Dragon Golem. So have you actually seen the Dragon Golem's full potential, what it can do, the uniqueness of the creature.
Again, you are talking about a whole town, and i am just commenting on one creature. There is a vast difference between the two. And this time, the Dragon Golem is definitely not underpowered. It is probably one of the strongest level 4 creatures. The Conflux had a mix of elementals, sprites, psychic, air, earth, water, fire. And of course, the phoenix. The Dragon Golem is a mix of magecraft and steelwork, exactly like the Iron and Steel Golems of Heroes II and III. The Dragon Golems are just more notably mechanical, which makes a HUGE difference in some people's minds.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 25, 2001 11:30 PM

Quote:
-No spellpower, attack, defence



I'll just have to disagree with this. There will be attack/defense (offence and defence under Tactics primary) and Spellpower. Maranthea said something about the spells in her last interview. The duration of the spells will be determined after careful playtesting, and their power will depend upon the hero's level.

But I agree with you, when you say that there won't be any of these skills, as I know that you're refering to "we won't know them as they were until now".

As for all other things you've pointed out I agree. Sometimes we're so rude, and judge the game before is even out. Disagreeing with certain things is OK, but there's a limit to it. For example, I dislike the Vampire, because I know how he looked like in HOMM3, and all I wan't is that they change it's look because HOMM3 version fits better in the game. But that's one thing. And it is really different from the request that the Dragon Golems should be thrown out of the game. We love and hate things, but let NWC do their job, and I'm sure we'll love the final product. As you've said, we haven't seen the things in motion. When I saw those Gamespot videos, I reamined breathless. The town screens, the map screen, it's all animated, and great looking. And after that I know that even if they don't change the appearance of Vampire, Troll, Unicorn and all other creature that bugs me, I'll grow to love them.

We should just put a liitle more confidence in NWC.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted November 26, 2001 12:18 AM

What if the final product of games didn't turn out the way you wanted BECAUSE you "cut them some slack" and didn't raise potential issues..? I'm not referring specifically to the Dragon Golem here, but with anything that sparks a controversy.. Then you would have to live with something that didn't turn out well because you put too much confidence in the developer.

If no one complained about the Forge before H3 expansion came out, we would have gotten the Forge instead of the Conflux. As it is, no one knows how well the Forge would have worked out, it could have been good, it could have been terrible. But if it was the latter, it would have been our (the fans) fault for not raising the issue earlier when something could have been done about it. Too much confidence in a company is not good. I loved the Heroes series, but I don't have total faith in NWC because their Might and Magic series got stale after 5 and seemed rehashed. And also for milking the Heroes franchise.

That said, I don't have any major issues with HOMM4 that I can't adjust to except for the Dragon Golem, but thankfully they offered us an alternative for level 4 units (all level units actually) so I don't actually have to build them if I don't like them.
____________

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vladpopescu79
vladpopescu79


Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
posted November 26, 2001 12:40 AM


"Just because we have not experienced a metallic looking creature before, it doesn't mean it is going to be bad."

If what you say is right, how about this: we should introduce Robocop in the game, he is "metallic", he cerainly moves ok, and any prosperous mage could have built it.


"It's looks were actually changed from this less-machanical looking dinosaur to what you see know. It still doesn't look 'good'. OK. It's your opinion. But just give it a chance though. It may not be what it turns out to be in the screenshots....."

Sure it will be what it is in the screenshots....it really doesn't matter how good it moves if it looks bad...needless to exemplify here, I hope...

" The Dragon Golem is a mix of magecraft and steelwork, exactly like the Iron and Steel Golems of Heroes II and III. The Dragon Golems are just more notably mechanical, which makes a HUGE difference in some people's minds"

Can you point out the part of the dg that involves mage craft? There is a long way to the golems of h2 and h3. And yes, the machinery makes a HUGE difference in my humble mind.
There's a difference between a piece of metal insuflated with life (you recognize here the golems) and a machine built in a garage (dg, who else?). What is next, a T80 tank?

And one more thing...I would really like to hear the Hydra's opinion on vampires.Thanks.

____________
MANE, TEKEL, FARES

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Darion
Darion


Promising
Famous Hero
posted November 26, 2001 01:40 AM bonus applied.

Yay fer Vlad. Yes... there is a difference between the iron golem and the dragon golem. The way I percieved it was that the iron golem by use of chemicals and magic applied by the wizard/alchemist it was brought to life... in that a certain enchantment was used on the iron to give it life. The iron golem was first constructed out of iron as a solid statue, but when it was brought to life it moved as much like a human being as it could.

The dragon golem, on the other hand, apparently needs a human at all times to make it move and attack, and it apparently has no life of it's own. Were this a ballista, or a simple machine constructed of wood, this would be acceptable. However, the idea of this automated machine with pistons and air valves and nuts and bolts and screws and gears (much like a primal car) that needs a nerdy small gnomish creature to control its attacks is not at all fantasy belonging in the Heroes world. If the little man were taken out, I would accept it perhaps. If it were simply made out of smooth iron, I would be willing to accept it joyfully and with open arms. However, this dragon golem not only does not look pretty, but it does not follow the setting of the Wizards no matter how much we want it to.

This is simply because if the dragon golem is there, why does the Haven have a simple wooden ballista? Why not change it to a medieval artillery gun? And give the goblins laser rifles, the ogres bazookas... thus was the forge born. And people did not like the forge. I was abhorred from the beginning (as you might have guessed) despite the pleas of other people that it would be a cool town, that it would work out. I said no, and joined the others and sent an e-mail to NWC.

Why? Because I like the world NWC made, of fairies and elves and goblins and dragons taken from legend and put into an epic, noble game of fantasy magical warfare. I did not want to see this technologically advanced race come in... because I personally like the way Heroes allows us to escape the reality of the world. This town was too much like our modern day weapons or futuristic weapons of science fiction games and novels. This was something completely foreign to the Heroes series, and something we did not like, because it as a whole did not fit in right with the rest of the stories.

This is why we detest the dragon golems. I wish something were possible to change it from being in the game, and while yes it is a cool creature, I would rather have it be in some other game rather than Heroes IV. It might belong in the world of Warcraft, where already gnomes build flying machines and dwarves use explosives, or in the world of Arcanum, where technology and magic exist side by side. However, not in our Heroes world, where magic and physical strength rule, where the modern technology is far far away, giving it a sense of innocence and spreading its magic across our minds as we are sucked into this noble world of heroes and enchantment.

Heck, it even manages to make death graceful and cute... not the horror and mindless killing it would be reduced to had the Forge been instituted. I for one thought the Conflux was extremely beautiful and innovative with what they did in that short amount of time.
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 26, 2001 12:05 PM

Oooh, this thread seems to be booming! ;)


Replies….

“If what you say is right, how about this: we should introduce Robocop in the game, he is "metallic", he cerainly moves ok, and any prosperous mage could have built it.”

??? Look, you really don’t get it, Robocop could never be included in the game, and he is not the same as a Dragon Golem. You are just taking the biggest negative. Think positive about things, does the Dragon Golem look cool when it attacks, like the Vampire in Heroes 2, or does it’s eyes flash like the phoenix in HoMM2. To me, the Dragon Golem doesn’t look that bad if you ask me. You could have also said exactly the same thing about Iron Golems. The look more like Robocop to me.

“Sure it will be what it is in the screenshots....it really doesn't matter how good it moves if it looks bad...needless to exemplify here, I hope...”

It will? Tell me, do you play a game by looking at the screenshots, do you judge it like you would when you actually play the game? It only looks bad if you want it to. I think it is OK to have a Dragon Golem in the game. As I said, there must be variety in the game, otherwise it is the same creatures. Doesn’t matter how good it moves, or attacks… hmm…. What happened if the Vampire scratched somebidy as its attack, and walked around the battlefield like a total goof.
Would it matter?

Can you point out the part of the dg that involves mage craft? There is a long way to the golems of h2 and h3. And yes, the machinery makes a HUGE difference in my humble mind.
There's a difference between a piece of metal insuflated with life (you recognize here the golems) and a machine built in a garage (dg, who else?). What is next, a T80 tank?”

Huge? There is nothing that extreme from the iron golems of HoMM2. The Dragon Golem is finer detailed and you can see the mechanics inside it. To me, the Iron Golems were just some metal in HoMM2. At least the Dragon Golem has some feel about it. T80 tank. That has nothing to do with HoMM. I don’t they would have kept the Dragon Golem if there wasn’t such a negative response at 3DO Community. Is there something different here?

“And one more thing...I would really like to hear the Hydra's opinion on vampires.Thanks.”

Vampires. Ah yes, the disappointment of Vampire lovers in HoMM4. Not enough bite, pardon the pun. Doesn’t have the ferocity neither the scary look of the vampires of Heroes 2. Theres my opinion. I could expand.

“Yay fer Vlad. Yes... there is a difference between the iron golem and the dragon golem. The way I percieved it was that the iron golem by use of chemicals and magic applied by the wizard/alchemist it was brought to life... in that a certain enchantment was used on the iron to give it life. The iron golem was first constructed out of iron as a solid statue, but when it was brought to life it moved as much like a human being as it could.”

Well of course there is a difference between the Iron Golem and Dragon Golem. Yes, but mages also created the foundation of the Dragon Golem, but what you said about the last part is correct. Yes, the immortal King Magnus controls the Dragon Golem. No it is not a little dwarf. Wonder what will happen if he didn’t control it?

“The dragon golem, on the other hand, apparently needs a human at all times to make it move and attack, and it apparently has no life of it's own. Were this a ballista, or a simple machine constructed of wood, this would be acceptable. However, the idea of this automated machine with pistons and air valves and nuts and bolts and screws and gears (much like a primal car) that needs a nerdy small gnomish creature to control its attacks is not at all fantasy belonging in the Heroes world. If the little man were taken out, I would accept it perhaps. If it were simply made out of smooth iron, I would be willing to accept it joyfully and with open arms. However, this dragon golem not only does not look pretty, but it does not follow the setting of the Wizards no matter how much we want it to.”

You brought up an interesting point about the ballista. Why aren’t people against that! A war machine being transferred into a creature with a human stuck on top. Poor imagination from 3DO, I must admit. But it is not the same with the Dragon Golem. It has imagination. So what if it has nuts and bolts? How do you think they made the castles? With wood?
Anyway, yes, it would be better with smooth iron, but it is OK how it is. How course people have their own opinions on how it could change for the better, but then you wouldn’t have a game with all people just thinking one type is better than the other.

“This is simply because if the dragon golem is there, why does the Haven have a simple wooden ballista? Why not change it to a medieval artillery gun? And give the goblins laser rifles, the ogres bazookas... thus was the forge born. And people did not like the forge. I was abhorred from the beginning (as you might have guessed) despite the pleas of other people that it would be a cool town, that it would work out. I said no, and joined the others and sent an e-mail to NWC.”

Ok. You’re over-emphasising like Vlad did. Just stick to the facts-this is only one creature. Ir doesn’t have laser rifles, it doesn’t chop you with a Vibro-ax. It is just a Dragon which has been created mechanically and partly by mages. Here we go with the Forge Town. I will say again that the Dragon Golem is 1 solitary creature. Not a whole two with 8 creatures.

“Why? Because I like the world NWC made, of fairies and elves and goblins and dragons taken from legend and put into an epic, noble game of fantasy magical warfare. I did not want to see this technologically advanced race come in... because I personally like the way Heroes allows us to escape the reality of the world. This town was too much like our modern day weapons or futuristic weapons of science fiction games and novels. This was something completely foreign to the Heroes series, and something we did not like, because it as a whole did not fit in right with the rest of the stories.”


Yes, OK Goblins, elves trolls and fairies are classic and have been part of the Heroes series for eternity, and will continue to be. Yes, but I’m sorry to say that the Dragon Golem is not in real life, and its not in books, nothing. Heroes is making a stand. You don’t like it because you can see the parts. But if you couldn’t as you said you’d exept it. So you’re contradicting yourself, there.

I'll just have to disagree with this. There will be attack/defense (offence and defence under Tactics primary) and Spellpower. Maranthea said something about the spells in her last interview. The duration of the spells will be determined after careful playtesting, and their power will depend upon the hero's level.

Yes, you do. They are here, but in a different form, as you said. Spellpower and defence etc. will be a secondary skill I think.
Thanks for the support, Svetac.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 26, 2001 01:27 PM bonus applied.

Quote:

The dragon golem, on the other hand, apparently needs a human at all times to make it move and attack, and it apparently has no life of it's own. Were this a ballista, or a simple machine constructed of wood, this would be acceptable. However, the idea of this automated machine with pistons and air valves and nuts and bolts and screws and gears (much like a primal car) that needs a nerdy small gnomish creature to control its attacks is not at all fantasy belonging in the Heroes world. If the little man were taken out, I would accept it perhaps. If it were simply made out of smooth iron, I would be willing to accept it joyfully and with open arms. However, this dragon golem not only does not look pretty, but it does not follow the setting of the Wizards no matter how much we want it to.



I really can see the love in you for this game. And all those things that you say about the Heroes world, it's innocence and stuff - it's great. And I really understand you. But don't forget that you crticize here something that you've only seen it on the pictures. We don't know the background of the Dragon Golems. We only know that Gavin Magnus invented them. But he's not mechanic to invent machine. He is magician. So those nuts and bolts, may turn out at the end into amplifiers that amplify the magic. Why? Well maybe this Dragon Golems need lots more magic to be brought into life, than those Gold Golems. And there's simply not enough magic that can be put in them. SO the wizards are putting equal amount of magic in the Dragon Golems as in the Gold Golems, but they do the trick with this nuts and bolts and polarizators to further amplify and strenghten the magic.

Now let me speculate furhter more on this one. Do rider on his back proves that this kinda creature have no own mind? Does rider on the back of the horse proves that the horse have no own mind? It may be the thing that the Dragon Golem has life on it's own, but his not acting inteleegent enough, and he need a rider who can controll it.

I won't enter the part wether I like or dislike this creature, because that will open a whole new point, and that's something that I intend not to talk about in this post. But my point was, that you can't prejudice about something, of wich you've only seen a bare picture and don't know any background. Maybe when they release it, or give some additional info on it, you'll grow to love it. So, put up a little patience in there.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted November 26, 2001 05:33 PM

Quote:
I'll just have to disagree with this. There will be attack/defense (offence and defence under Tactics primary) and Spellpower. Maranthea said something about the spells in her last interview. The duration of the spells will be determined after careful playtesting, and their power will depend upon the hero's level.


She said that, but you forgot to mention what she said just before. She said that the default duration for spells with duration would be the length of the combat. (That encompasses almost every spell which has a duration in heroes 3: haste, stoneskin, shield, mirth, protection from X, prayer, forgetfulness etcetera.)

Also some spells are instant and have no duration, like damage dealing spells. Berserk, Frenzy, Remove Obstacle and the like would also fall into this category. The interview also said: "Damage is generally level-based for heroes and fixed for creatures. "

So in this case the Hero's level increases the damage caused by a spell, which means Hero level replaces spellpower for damage spells.

This leaves us a with a few spells which can't have 'until end of combat' as a duration and aren't instant either. In this category I can envisage a few spells like:

Blind (it's not fair if this spell is until end of combat, I hope they tone this spell down and limit it to 2-3 rounds.)

Hypnotize: This is the same as blind. It should have a limited duration.

Force Field: If this lasts until end of combat it may result in a stale-mate in the combat, which must be avoided. In fact any spell which adds obstacles must be limited in rounds, or it may cause a stale-mate.

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 27, 2001 04:36 AM

Yes you're right. I couldn't remember all those things and write them from top of my head.

Thanks Djive for further explanation of the things I mentioned.
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted November 27, 2001 09:38 AM

I just wanted to point out that in the game, the DG WILL look like it does in the screenshots. The screenshots don't show how they move or twitch or attack, but its basic look is there, just for the people who say the screenshots show nothing about the units.

The Hydra, SUPPOSING they brought in an ogre who had a laser rifle (this is not happening, but just suppose they came up with that idea for one moment) what would be your reaction? Because they just could.. in HOMM5.
____________

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted November 27, 2001 12:35 PM

Dragon Golem.. I wish we'd move on! Get onto something like an isometric view.

My reaction?

Really, i like knowing the full story before i make judgments. It is very hard to see what the Dragon Golem is truly like until we've played the game, and experienced it in full, active motion.

Anyway, with the Ogre and the laser rifle. OK. Obviously, a laser gun is not from the Heroes era, and a mage would use specters, which fire lasers. Really not much difference. But then you start looking at the small things.
The Design of the gun to the spectre.
The way it is held.
The size of it.
There are very small differences that make things unique.
As Svetac said, the Ballista is a problem, since it is similar to Dragon Golem. It is, in a way. But then again, it is very different.
The Dragon Golem is made from Steel.
The DG is moulded from a creature.
The Ballista is a shooter.
This i think is what makes the difference between a unit like a ballista different from a Dragon Golem.

Back onto the Ogre. My reaction would be one of patience. I wouldn't agree with the idea, but i would see how it would turn out, maybe before the game is released, you could be able to see it in action. If it looks really out of place holding a laser, i wouldn't like it, and would be agianst it. I would have been against it from the start, but i like to give small things a chance. But the Gun situation is different from the Dragon Golem.
A gun has nothing to do with Ogres or a Stronghold town, which can hardly build a solid brick building.
On the other hand, the Dragon Golem fits into the Academy town well, since it includes advanced creatures, and new technology capable of creating such a creature.
I like looking at all aspects of the creature, sizing it up, and then, once i have taken all things into account, make a judgement.

About Isometric view...

It gives us the capability of viewing the whole screen from a central position, and making more use of the undulations and obstructions that are placed.
As i said earlier, it saves the creatures from turning around everytime a creature attacked them from the other side.
Also, with this view, there is no reason to go backwards around an obstacle, since the teams are facing each other across a diagonal.
It would also be interesting if the camera angle was a birds eye crossed with a diagonal, looking across the field.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted November 27, 2001 01:17 PM

I think that the idea of a dragon golem is a little bit far fetched, but then again, what's far-fetched when it comes to fantasy?

As for isometric views well, I don't think it really adds a whole lot to the game. I mean how far is too far when it comes to camera viewpoints? Few of us are budding hollywood directors anyways...

We can of course go as far as to have 1st person perspectives for each creature as they move, you know kinda like a 3d thing... You see what the creature can see.

Of course during an opponent's turn, you would get a better view of the battlefield as a whole (from the hero of course who would know where all his units are) and this would give you a chance to study creature moves before going back into the 'creature 3d view' again.

LMAO!

Sorry! I know that wasn't funny!

*smile*

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Svetac
Svetac


Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
posted November 27, 2001 04:26 PM
Edited By: Svetac on 27 Nov 2001

Dragon Golem issues is by far different from the Ogre with laser one.

If the Dragon Golem had any lasers mounted on his back, indicating that it's all about tanks and stuff, I would also complain about it.

But wait a second. What the word Golem means? We all know that that's a solid metal, stone or whatever creature, brought in life with magic.

So if it says so, please look at it that way. Or what do we think?
"We the players, we are the smartyes of the world, and those guys at NWC didn't knew that. So they made a tank unit and call it Golem. Oh they're so dumb, so let's tell them now what Golem means."

This my friends is ignorant attitude from us, the player - towards those who gave us the greates game of our lives. And we can't go on like that. So, if they say it's Golem - it's Golem. Why all those nuts and bolts and drivers are needed? Well, we must have patience and see. We must stop being ignorant.

As for the isometric view - I like it. THe game gets new, better look, and new better feeling. And it's great refresh after that semi-top down view. About 3D. Who needs 3d? HOMM don't need 3D. And isometric and 3D are really different things. So please don't mess up those two things. Don't add unnecessary confusion where you shouldn't.

This perspective gives us better look on the world. When I saw that last underground screen with the lone Necro hero, I was stunned. The underground finaly looks like underground thanks to the new graphic engine, and the new perspective. The underground areas were always looking silly in HOMM3. But now that's not the case anymore.

And in the battles you get better look on the battlefield. Making you go for strategies and stuff instead of strugling with the view. Or saying "oh, I would've shot those 123 Beholders, but the Dragons were below them, and the number box was overed, so I thought that they are only 12". No more situations like that
____________
--- Paladin of the Macedon ---

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wizz
wizz

Tavern Dweller
posted November 27, 2001 04:59 PM

i feel i like to comment this about the dragongolems

maybe someone has mention this but the big fault with the DGs is that IF yau have acces to this kind if tecnology
then why bather with something less  
IF you could build it then you could allso build for example cars, tanks, whatever and therefor it makes no sense to mix such high (modern) tecnology into a world that is suposed to be middeleval
In short  It breaks the logic behid the world

(you could maybe think of it this way:  the mages have summond it from the future,    but I think this is kind of out of order )

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