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| Thread: two images for the units |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 27, 2003 05:34 PM |
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The idea is not bad, but should not be applied to every creature. So simply:
Clearly female creatures only have female icons (Medusa, Naga, Harpy and some more.)
Clearly male creatures only have male form (Can't think of all that many at the moment. I don't think either vampires or angels are male by necessity. But I guess there are others that could be male... female titans??? female berserkeres??? female satyrs??? female imps??? hmmm.....)
Animals, machines and constructs only have one form. (Wolfs, Tigers, Ballistae, Catapults, Golems.)
Remaining creatures could have two forms.
I don't think this is high priority, but perhaps 20% of the creatures appearing in both sexes might very well be a nice touch to the game, as well as offering some alternate graphics to be displayed.
Doing all creatures in two sexes, I don't think is reasonable. Would then rather have Ubisoft spend more time on the creatures they do make.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted December 27, 2003 06:57 PM |
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Personally i see no point in this whatsoever.
IMO this is just something that might delay the game and will take up extra space and might make the gameplay slower.
Id rather see that they focused on putting in a random map generator or something else. Making units with two possible genders is just waste of time and could be included in some expansion pack to make graphics more appealing.
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted December 27, 2003 07:45 PM |
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well i think something similar that might be cool is customizing the colors/look of your heroes. Kinda like if you fire up a Mario game such as Mario golf or the like, you may have a normal brown and white donkey kong, or you might have a orange and yellow donkey kong. I think that would be cool 
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted December 27, 2003 08:41 PM |
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The idea sounds good but doesn't make sense. The creature on the battlefield is supposed to represent an entire army. Male or female, it is obvious that the army it represents could have creatures of both gender. So if you make the choice described above, it would be implied that the entire army of creatures is of a single gender.
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regnus_khan
Responsible
Supreme Hero
[ Peacekeeper of Equilibris ]
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posted December 27, 2003 09:19 PM |
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I agree with Djive and with all of those, who thought of an idea like this. I think there should be many examples of the creatures that should have only ONE gender:
Sprites - women
Satyr - men
etc.
But... some of the creatures: wolves, tigers or mechanicals: balistae should have NO gender.
I think I didn't say anything new, just explained my decision.
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LordZXZX
Famous Hero
Overfished
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posted December 27, 2003 09:51 PM |
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Besides, would the male and female units have any difference in their stats?
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Blue_Camel
Famous Hero
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posted December 28, 2003 02:18 AM |
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would at least be interesting if the male and female creatures had different stats.. maybe a male elf would have more hp than the female elf, but the female elf would have higher speed not that i like this idea that much for homm, but it would at least be somewhat interesting if both options had their own strengths/weaknesses.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 28, 2003 01:08 PM |
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Quote:
Id rather see that they focused on putting in a random map generator or something else. Making units with two possible genders is just waste of time and could be included in some expansion pack to make graphics more appealing.
I'd say you're wrong here. Artwork and a random map generator is usually done by different people, so it's not having one or the other.
You have to value this feature against things like:
* additional terrain objects on map.
* more artifacts
* more neutral creatures.
* skins.
* cut-scene movies
* unique graphics for upgrades (beyond a simple colour substitution)
Or other artist graphics which can be considered to be added to the game.
I guess it would be possible to have slightly different characteristics for the female monster versions, though I don't see that as strictly necessary.
Hmmm different stats... It would lead to different upgrade paths for the male version and female version. I can't see the designers enforcing a gender change for upgrades here. (it was done in a few cases in H3, but I hope they discontinue that particular feature.)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted December 28, 2003 06:26 PM |
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With all the respect djive i do believe i have about as much knowledge as you in game making. And therefor i think you overlook some points now.
What you did cut out with your quote from the post of mine was the part that focusing to much on a more less imortant thing as 2 gender creatures could cost you a delay in game and etc.
Also i do know that there are different sections in making a game. But since neither of us is a part of heroes V developement we dont know the co operation between these different sections and how many people there are working on each part of the game. And im sure many of the lay out people knows the way to beta test for example RMG and such instead. Point being even if you as a lay out expert dont have the same knowledge when it comes to for example testing things you can still make an effort.
And if that effort leads to an earlier released game without 2 gendered creatures then im more then happy with that.
But IMO i see no use of this at all unless further developement of this idea. If a change of gender also means a different build up of the creatures stats it could work since it could be an option to use instead of upgrades.
So not every creature could be upgraded but you will get the option of choose between gender on some creatures and try and make them suit your army better.
But as suggested as a pure graphic pleaser it is just something that slows the game down and makes the game bigger IMO.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted December 29, 2003 01:16 PM |
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Quote:
What you did cut out with your quote from the post of mine was the part that focusing to much on a more less imortant thing as 2 gender creatures could cost you a delay in game and etc.
Simply because such a discussion is too hypothetical. If making graphics is what's holding down the final product then yes, otherwise probably not.
To be honest, I don't think graphics would be holding down the game at any rate and if it did it would be cut from the scope as being non-essential to the game.
I do have enough experience to know what will happen to non-essential features if the choice is delay to an already committed date or feature being cut.
The consequence you should make of not knowing the details of how the developement cycle look like is the following:
- Do NOT dismiss features referring to said development cycle which you said you knew very little about.
Instead you should discuss the feature based on it own merits and how good (or bad) it is when compared to other similar features.
I'm convinced that the choice is not one of the other when it comes to strategy, or graphic appeal, the game must have both to be successful.
Speaking about an earlier released game when no release date has been set seems useless to me.
The feature could be implemented in three or more different levels, depending on how much work is to be used:
1. Different art for the mini-icons.
2. Different art for the mini-icons and animations.
3. Different art for the mini-icons and animations, and male and female versions being different in stats.
In the case of 3. being used, I'd expect this to replace upgrades to some extent. Which would mean that the work for doing the "upgrade art" can be saved. If this is done, then it doesn't necessarily take longer time to develope male and female versions than it does to do alternative art for upgrades.
Graphics pleasers is necessary to the game. A lot of the replay appeal in the game is due to these graphic pleasers which you are so quick to dismiss.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Sir_Stiven
Honorable
Legendary Hero
banned
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posted December 29, 2003 03:48 PM |
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Newsflash, all of this discussion is "too hypothetical" because as mentioned earlier you aswell as me have no insight whatsoever in ubisofts developement team.
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To be honest, I don't think graphics would be holding down the game at any rate and if it did it would be cut from the scope as being non-essential to the game.
... and since that makes your guess as good as mine id say this, i have a friend who have created a game with a couple of his friends. And for their game the graphics (which my friend has responsibilty for) was the by far biggest area and he got help from his friends to finish the graphics part. Point is do not dismiss graphics as something little because it is not.
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Instead you should discuss the feature based on it own merits and how good (or bad) it is when compared to other similar features.
nope.
Your missing my point. Im not comparing this to other similiar features, im comparing it towards the games release date. Because i rather have a earlier released game then a one with a special two gender graphic thingy. Because id rather have a faster game then something that will lag me down in stressful multiplayer turns.
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I'm convinced that the choice is not one of the other when it comes to strategy, or graphic appeal, the game must have both to be successful.
Computer chess would be a great way to prove you wrong. But i still believe you have a point, off course a new game of the modern days will have to look good. But the graphic part isnt as important as the strategy one, some bad graphics you can live with but a bad game idea means you wont play the game again and will turn to other games instead.
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Speaking about an earlier released game when no release date has been set seems useless to me.
ok.
So i could just say speaking about different genders of creatures when no creatures has been set would make as much sense then?
Thing is we no basically nothing about this game and therefor most of this is speculations and different ideas. I can understand that. But i dont understand how you want to dismiss somethings as speculation and yet speculate in other things?
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The feature could be implemented in three or more different levels, depending on how much work is to be used:
1. Different art for the mini-icons.
2. Different art for the mini-icons and animations.
3. Different art for the mini-icons and animations, and male and female versions being different in stats.
My opinions:
1) will be a complete toss since having two different mini icons and the animations will still look the same will just look stupid.
2) Would be the one we are discussing now in general i guess and i have alrdy made my feelings about that known.
3) The only of the 3 options that would improve the game in some way. How it can improve i mentioned in my last post and i think it could be a good compliment to creature upgrades. With some units to upgrade and some to choose gender of you get more possibilities.
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Graphics pleasers is necessary to the game. A lot of the replay appeal in the game is due to these graphic pleasers which you are so quick to dismiss.
To a certain degree they are yes, when it comes to graphics that still needs to be done. Like for instance in town picture, skins and so on. But when it comes to different genders i see no point of this at all, if someone want to play some kind of "father, mother and child" game im sure there are more suitable games as the sims or something.
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jaxxa
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 29, 2003 04:02 PM |
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wel i think that the heroes, should be optional. like beeing able to create different facial features, body size like thick or thin, different hair styles and color of the skin. and last but not least there basic outfits. for we all have different taste in colors. and the creatures, wel the most are optional to, but surtain types of creatures only female and others male, and some no gender at all.
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Lothar
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 11, 2004 07:11 PM |
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i don't think it's a good idea...
but let's try my own opinion about this
(ok, i know it isn't the best way to improve graphics, but let's try it)
my discussion about this is:
graphical upgrades
http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=5&TID=11030
so, i disagree, but my idea isn't much better...
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back to the nature
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted January 11, 2004 08:18 PM |
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... and since that makes your guess as good as mine id say this, i have a friend who have created a game with a couple of his friends. And for their game the graphics (which my friend has responsibilty for) was the by far biggest area and he got help from his friends to finish the graphics part. Point is do not dismiss graphics as something little because it is not.
Nobody said it was small, what was said is that you do the graphics early, and if you don't have time to complete a second set of models in time for the release then you simply cut the feature, and perhaps include it in an expansion instead.
I can't see a company postphone the release date on the count of this, therefore I feel your point is moot. There is IMO no choice to begin with in the situation you describe. The feature would be cut. Period.
I see no way a feature like this would delay the release date.
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Because id rather have a faster game then something that will lag me down in stressful multiplayer turns.
I'd be inclined to say that the effect the number of existing animations have on speed ought to be none, or as good as none you can come.
Things like animated adventure maps object or the like would slow down the graphics on your computer, but alternative ways of representing units ought to have negligble effects.
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So i could just say speaking about different genders of creatures when no creatures has been set would make as much sense then?
This is a conceptual idea about the game, whether you like it or not. The kind of idea this forum is meant to discuss.
While it's possible to discuss release date in the forum, I'd say this discussion should be kept out of the conceptual topics (like this one) and put into a separate thread. And you could possible say in the release date thread, that you wouldn't want this feature to put the release date at a later time. And you'd probably get no argument, because this feature would be cut for sure if it endangered the release date.
About speculation.
You're free to specualte about release dates, and what you want in first relase but create a dedicated topic for this. Release dates is off-topic for this topic as it has nothing to do with this idea.
An idea by itself does not necessarily have to be in the first release of the next game, and if you feel it's unsuitable there then instead respond to the idea as if it was introduced in an expansion pack instead.
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To a certain degree they are yes, when it comes to graphics that still needs to be done. Like for instance in town picture, skins and so on. But when it comes to different genders i see no point of this at all, if someone want to play some kind of "father, mother and child" game im sure there are more suitable games as the sims or something.
Well, then why not make all heroes male? Save in nearly 50% of animations. And why have say 200 different portaits of heroes when perhaps 50 would be enough? Why have say 6 towns when you can have only 3. Why have 150 spells in 5 schools, when you can have 40 using one common school, all in the interest of getting an earlier game.
It's one thing that you don't like the idea, but I don't like that you try to ridicule it.
Pray tell, what has "play father mother, and child" to do with using separate models for the two genders for monsters?
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 11, 2004 09:05 PM |
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For most of this topic, I thought we were just discussing changing the portraits of the units. That has little or no effect on how long the game takes to develop. Graphics are usually done a little over halfway through the development cycle. How else do you think they make screenshots? Graphics are tweaked (for various reasons and to varying degrees) after this.
But I think what hasn't been considered that SHOULD be considered is how the graphics are made. Suppose an artist wants to make a Goblin. The artist will start by making concept art that matches his or her mental prototyle of what a Goblin should look like, and adapts it to theme of the game. Then he or she will actually go about making the model or sprite.
Now we are suggesting there is not just one representation of this creature, but two. There is also probably a fair amount of difference between the two- why else would we be making both?
There are two solutions: either make 2 sets of concept art, or make more generic concept art. Neither are acceptable because they both reduce the characterization that is possible with the creature. Now we have a bland two faced male/female goblin rather than a unique one-of-a-kind goblin.
Which would you rather have?
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted January 11, 2004 10:27 PM |
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Quote:
Now we are suggesting there is not just one representation of this creature, but two. There is also probably a fair amount of difference between the two- why else would we be making both?
As has been mentioned, a lot of creatures falls into one or more of the following categories:
- Has no sex.
- Has only one sex.
- Machine, no sex needed or desired.
- Animal or Monster with no visible difference between sexes. (Phoenix, Wolves, Tigers, Behemoths, Sea Monsters, Dragons)
So making two images requires that males and females are sufficiently different (as you pointed out), and have their own characteristics. Perhaps half of the creatures will fall into this category, I made a quick estimate below, and it would point to less than half of the creatures.
There is no point in making two representations if the male or female look too alike. Much better to put artisitc efforts elsewhere then.
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There are two solutions: either make 2 sets of concept art, or make more generic concept art. Neither are acceptable because they both reduce the characterization that is possible with the creature. Now we have a bland two faced male/female goblin rather than a unique one-of-a-kind goblin.
I think it should work like this. First you make one set of concept art, using the most appropriate sex of the monster in question for it.
When it comes to concept art, for some creatures it may try out both to begin with, for others making the concept art for the second gender will be done at a later time. The game works with just one set of creatures animations, so no need to risk delaying the game for it.
If a creature doesn't have enough different character when male or being female, then don't bother doing male and female versions. The assumption behind making two versions is that they are sufficiently different to begin with.
Creatures which already have been used in both genders are for instance:
- Elves
- Angels
- Genies
- Humans
- And there a few more of these.
Goblins would be a case where it would be difficult to find something distinctly feamle, but if you go all out with different stats then you could make female goblins different, perhaps make them magic oriented or shooters.
Quick summary:
Heroes 3 creatures:
Pikeman Perhaps, but best if armed differently.
Archer Perhaps, but best if armed differently.
Griffin. No.
Swordsman. Yes, unless face is covered.
Monk. Yes.
Cavalier. Yes, unless face is covered.
Angel. Yes.
Centaur. Perhaps.
Dwarf. Yes.
Elf. Yes.
Pegasus. No.
Dendroid. No.
Unicorn. No.
Dragon. No.
Gremlin. Perhaps.
Gargoyle. No.
Golem. Perhaps.
Magi. Yes.
Genie. Yes.
Naga. No.
Titan. Perhaps.
Sprite. Perhaps.
Elementals. Perhaps.
Phoenix. No.
Goblin. Perhaps.
Wolf. No.
Orc. Perhaps.
Ogres. Yes.
Rocs. No.
Cyclops. Yes.
Behemoths. No.
Gnolls. Perhaps.
Lizardfolk. Perhaps.
Dragonfly. No.
Basilisk. No.
Gorgon. No.
Wyvern. No.
Hydra. No.
Imp. Perhaps.
Gog. Perhaps.
Hellhound. No.
Demon. Yes.
Pit Fiend. Perhaps.
Efreet. Perhaps.
Devil. Yes.
Troglodyte. No.
Harpy. No.
Beholder. No
Medusa. No.
Minotaur. Perhaps.
Manticore. No.
Skeleton. No.
Zombie. Perhaps.
Wight. Perhaps.
Vampire. Yes.
Lich. Perhaps.
Dark Knight. Yes, unless face is covered.
Bone Dragon. No.
Heroes 4 creatures:
Squire. Perhaps, but best if armed differently.
Crossbowman. Perhaps, but best if armed differently.
Ballista. No.
Catapult. No.
Halfling. Perhaps.
Dragon Golem. No.
Evil Sorceress. Yes. (This could be the alternate form of the Magi.)
Ghost. Perhaps.
Venom Spawn. No.
Mummy. Perhaps.
Ice Demon. No.
Bandit. Yes.
Pirate. Yes.
Troll. Yes.
Nightmare. No.
Leprechaun. Perhaps.
Tiger. No.
Satyr. No.
Waspwort. No
Mantis. No.
Gargantuan. No.
Berserker. Perhaps.
Nomad. No.
Mermaid. No.
Thunderbird. No.
Sea Monster. No.
Gnasher. No.
Summary:
Yes. 15.
No. 40.
Perhaps: 30.
I'm sure someone would like to see some of the 'No's in two versions, and would truly hate seeing some of the 'Yes' in two versions.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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