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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: A macro view of logistics
Thread: A macro view of logistics This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT»
ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 08, 2008 05:22 PM bonus applied by Elvin on 08 Aug 2008.

A macro view of logistics

i noticed that there are many threads/posts on creeping, combat strategies, and tactics, and even a thread on the movement of creatures, but there doesn't seem to be one on logistical strategies.
if there is one, mods please feel free to move this post. a few points:

1st off, aside from your main hero, you should also have a secondary hero at the beginning, aim for the skills like logistics, snatch, scouting and resourcefulness. Ideally, a wizard(like Galib) would be good. try to get a damaging destructive spell and try not to move his starting army to your main hero if possible(exceptions can be made for heroes with excessively powerful armies). the reason for this is that if your scout meets an enemy scout, the scout with better spells and a better army will prevail.(if you win, you just saved yourself 3000gp!)

2ndly, random creatures should be left alone and not attacked(unless they are blocking the road or something). they are extremely useful for a number of reasons: 1)if your main hero has to go home quickly, he can hand his army over to your secondary, attack a random creature and flee 2) if you hire a necromancer to get extra creatures, you can wait until the random creatures become more numerous 3)you may want to build up a secondary hero, and if you don't have mentoring you will want to leave some of these stacks to build up for training purposes 4) warpath --this ability is seriously underestimated. foolish beginners think that once the random creatures are all killed off it becomes useless. (wrong! - there are weeks that keep spawning neutrals) in any case you should allow enemy creatures to build up on the map and use this ability for the endfight to storm your enemy's castle. often your unprepared enemy will be shocked at how unexpected quickly you reached his castle

3rdly, record all tiles where you fought battles. you may not know this, but each square on the adventure map you fight in has its own characteristics(avoid grass vs haven/sylvan ofc). let's say you find a tile that has lots of barriers, this would be great for a spellcaster faction fighting against, say haven or sylvan. just leave you hero on that tile, and if an aggressive enemy hero thinks you an easy target, he will find just how much the terrain affects his strategy.

4thly, at some point in time it will be worth hiring many heroes to form the hero transport chain. this is an interlinking network of heroes that allow for rapid transport of units/artifacts/warmachines and possibly spells as well from your main castle to your main hero. now why would you do this if you have summon creatures? 1stly, summon creatures drains mana: summoning a lot of level ones will deplete you badly, 2ndly, it reduces movement. 3rdly, the hero transport chain allows you to send your army back to your main castle and your hero can go home too by attacking a neutral stack and fleeing. this ofc assumes that town portal is not feasible for some reason(maybe you just conquered a castle, but the enemy hero is getting close to your main castle). the hero transport chain is also useful for upgrading units from a upgrade fort. think of how much money and resources you save by not building upgraded structures and getting free level one upgrades!

5thly, creature dwellings have caravans that move at great speeds towards the town that are hiring the creatures. try to leave one creature behind in each dwelling(unless its a really important creature) in case you need to transport creatures back home.

6thly, garrisons; they seem useless, but are good for the following reasons: you can put in units strong enough to prevent secondary heroes from coming in and stealing mines/resources, or units that can mess up the main hero's army(say seducers/shadow matriarchs/mistresses/druids/mages, etc.)

7thly, the sanctuary: this dwelling is not merely to hide your hero in. it is perfect for hiding a suicide bomber ambush. get a low level warlock with armageddon + expert destructive + mask of equity, pretend that you are hiding from the enemy, but when the main army comes by, KABOOM!

8thly, consider situations where death march and snatch might be useful for your main. if you are a strong castle sieger, death march is right up your alley(+4 speed is nothing to sneer at). snatch is extremely useful for island hopping maps, since you don't lose a day when boarding ships.

9thly, consider using fast heroes like rutger, urghat, or grok if you have a "rusher game" where you have a good idea of the location of your enemy's castle. use your gold to hire secondaries, don't build crap, merge the armies, and flee down to your enemy castle to take it over. with some luck you will capture a well developed castle!

experienced players please add your thoughts!

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outshined
outshined

Tavern Dweller
posted August 08, 2008 09:04 PM

Well, as a relatively new player to the multiplayer facets of HoMMV, this guide has a lot of great ideas.  I never even considered using Flee as an "improvised town portal" because the game is usually over if you are defeated in campaign mode.  

One question I had was this:

When is it worthwhile to take the Logistics skill?  I've heard on some maps it is vital, while on others it isn't so useful.  

You already suggested one good use, Snatch on heavy naval maps (which would save a lot of time!)  But are there other scenarios where logistics is strongly suggested?  

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted August 08, 2008 09:30 PM

Very nice. It's a good part of the strategy involved and probably overlooked with people thinking about creeping, skill picking and battle tactics. These are not enough. In fact I lost today's game because my opponent had warpath and boots, it meant that he could exploit a huge part of the map and was many days ahead of me creeping-wise. All my previous choices meant nothing, I lost pathetically.
Insatiable's RR is the best example of how navigating the terrain can affect your game. Reach the key locations first and you get bonus, fail and opponent gains an edge. Also it's one of those maps that you cannot spare the time to take everything even if we are talking about relic artifacts. You simply have to get what you can and go for the garrison week 3 if you want to exploit the riches there first. Of course the first is not necessarily the best but it's all a fight for control of the artifacts and locations.
Onwards.

Nah I think I'll keep the secondary's army for my main thank you very much Better creeping and the secondary will rarely have much he can do by his own unless in special cases. Heroes like Galib are to follow main around and pick resources, if you want an aggressive secondary make sure he at least has suitable starting skills to develop fast. If you meet a secondary early it means the map is rushing in which case not balanced And if it is late then you don't care about the 3k, you'll probably have more than 2-3 heroes by then, depends on map of course.

Don't remind me warpath.. I will only say that it's a doubled edged knife if your enemy crosses half the map and reach your town because of the damn neutrals you left behind. Yes it's happened to me.

Very good idea of what terrain you leave your hero and not only that, distance is essential. Be able to strike at a main if you have logs but be out of range of secondaries that will attack you to remove luck/morale bonuses from the locations.

The interlinking network of heroes that allow for rapid transport is called chaining I've been known to send my unupgraded units back and forth to town within 2 days with the town being away 3-4 days
Where unit transportation is concerned I will often leave back unupgraded units giving me the time to build the upgs and summon them later. Being near a well at that time is advised lest your enemy catches you with your pants down.
Since fleeing is the poor man's town portal it's a good idea to have a secondary around to which to give the army while you attack neutrals with minimal army to flee. The secondary will eventually reach you, with chain at worst but your main will have gained valuable time.

Quote:
5thly, creature dwellings have caravans that move at great speeds towards the town that are hiring the creatures. try to leave one creature behind in each dwelling(unless its a really important creature) in case you need to transport creatures back home.

I didn't get that one. One annoying thing that has happened to me is caravan units on first day that will not reach you within same day. Because they may block one of your paths..

Quote:
7thly, the sanctuary: this dwelling is not merely to hide your hero in. it is perfect for hiding a suicide bomber ambush. get a low level warlock with armageddon + expert destructive + mask of equity, pretend that you are hiding from the enemy, but when the main army comes by, KABOOM!

LMAO But I'd never play you twice not to mention mask of equity is usually banned.

Quote:
snatch is extremely useful for island hopping maps, since you don't lose a day when boarding ships.

That and annoying portals that have 3-4 destinations and waste your movement
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Asheera
Asheera


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Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted August 08, 2008 09:38 PM
Edited by Asheera at 21:40, 08 Aug 2008.

I'll just add my opinion on secondary Heroes:

I like to have two secondary Heroes, one to follow the main and pick up goodies, and the other to stay around the Town when you need some creatures from the town.

EDIT: I also like to "test" every Witch Hut with my secondary hero so that I won't get a useless (and annoying) skill for my main
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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 09, 2008 12:29 AM

@outshined: depends on the map and the kind of strategy you seek to use. if you are a rusher/castle sieger, i think logistics is worth it. if the map is large with many different terrains its worth it. if you plan on defending and your opponent is aggressive(say you are fortress vs. opponent sylvan or haven) getting an extra skill like defense or attack instead of logistics would be better.

@elvin: thanks for the nice comments. many of your comments show just how experienced you are. i used to transport my secondary hero's army to my main hero, but then started playing on heroic difficulty where gold and resources are more scarce.

as for caravans, what i meant was that your main hero can put his army into a caravan to get it transported back home, in case you know a powerful hero that you can't beat is about to attack next turn. the caravan travels faster than most heroes can run

@asheera: those are good ideas

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Elvin
Elvin


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What if Elvin was female?
posted August 09, 2008 01:52 AM

Hey I hadn't thought of using the caravans that way It may help me in future games.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted August 09, 2008 02:38 AM
Edited by broadstrong at 02:39, 09 Aug 2008.

Quote:


4) warpath --this ability is seriously underestimated. foolish beginners think that once the random creatures are all killed off it becomes useless. (wrong! - there are weeks that keep spawning neutrals) in any case you should allow enemy creatures to build up on the map and use this ability for the endfight to storm your enemy's castle. often your unprepared enemy will be shocked at how unexpected quickly you reached his castle


Warpath is imo one of the best abilities, not just under Logistics perk, but also in the whole game.  The focus is so much on combat, hero build, army composition etc, that it is easy to overlook efficiency, which logistics helps to achieve (uncovering more of the map, doing more things each turn). And not to mention that by earlier sieging, it means an extra week's troops for you and less for the enemy.

Quote:

4thly, at some point in time it will be worth hiring many heroes to form the hero transport chain. this is an interlinking network of heroes that allow for rapid transport of units/artifacts/warmachines and possibly spells as well from your main castle to your main hero. now why would you do this if you have summon creatures? 1stly, summon creatures drains mana: summoning a lot of level ones will deplete you badly, 2ndly, it reduces movement. 3rdly, the hero transport chain allows you to send your army back to your main castle and your hero can go home too by attacking a neutral stack and fleeing. this ofc assumes that town portal is not feasible for some reason(maybe you just conquered a castle, but the enemy hero is getting close to your main castle). the hero transport chain is also useful for upgrading units from a upgrade fort. think of how much money and resources you save by not building upgraded structures and getting free level one upgrades!


Hero chain...the ability used so much in H3 that in H4 this was made impossible...now it makes a comeback.

Summon creatures is more for getting high-level creatures...I even feel that the current spell should be modified to consume more mana for high-level creatures (say, 2 mana for lvl 5 to 7 creatures).  I know a lot of players will feel unhappy, but think again, being able to get creatures like that at a *lowly* level of lvl 10 sounds just too unbalancing and exploitable by cheating AI (which it really does, even at difficulty levels where AI supposedly does not cheat)

H5's fill fort is not very good now as upgrading lvl 4-onwards creatures become expensive, but it is much needed for necro's skeletons, Havez's troops of gremlins (numerous) or dungeon's scouts (because they are expensive)

Quote:
9thly, consider using fast heroes like rutger, urghat, or grok if you have a "rusher game" where you have a good idea of the location of your enemy's castle. use your gold to hire secondaries, don't build crap, merge the armies, and flee down to your enemy castle to take it over. with some luck you will capture a well developed castle!


Rutger and Urgart really need to re evaluated...saw elsewhere a 6/10 for Rutger because his ability "does not help in battles" --- this misses out the potential that Logistics (+ pathfinding) gives.  In fact, these heroes are not just good at rusher games but also good at XL maps (forget Deleb and Kaspar, imo I don't find them very good at long games)

All in all a very good thread that informs us of another dimension of Heroes 5 --- logistics (one of the 4 "must-take" skills in H3 and a very good skill to take in H5)


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Isabel
Isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted August 09, 2008 04:29 AM
Edited by Isabel at 04:32, 09 Aug 2008.

Quote:
3rdly, record all tiles where you fought battles. you may not know this, but each square on the adventure map you fight in has its own characteristics(avoid grass vs haven/sylvan ofc). let's say you find a tile that has lots of barriers, this would be great for a spellcaster faction fighting against, say haven or sylvan. just leave you hero on that tile, and if an aggressive enemy hero thinks you an easy target, he will find just how much the terrain affects his strategy.


This is a new idea to me, you make good use of obstacles indeed. But how do you lure your enemy into that particular spot?

Quote:
5thly, creature dwellings have caravans that move at great speeds towards the town that are hiring the creatures. try to leave one creature behind in each dwelling(unless its a really important creature) in case you need to transport creatures back home.


Never thought of that. Putting hero's creatures into the caravan is an odd move (I usually do the opposite), but who knows when will it get useful?

Quote:
7thly, the sanctuary: this dwelling is not merely to hide your hero in. it is perfect for hiding a suicide bomber ambush. get a low level warlock with armageddon + expert destructive + mask of equity, pretend that you are hiding from the enemy, but when the main army comes by, KABOOM!




Very nice ideas, ebba. And by the way, heroes like Rutger are excellant scouts or secondary, and also good to surprise your opponent with their speed. You can use them to reach your enemy's town suddenly. Thus even though they are not your main, you should train them up a few lvs if you can.

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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2008 05:52 PM

cOnFuCius say: a swift mind is a deadly mind...

i just wanted to update with another one of logistics' many awesome perks...

!swift mind!

this perk, in my opinion, now makes logistics almost game changing.

effectively, your hero now has a 14 initiative, which, while not the best, often allows you to act close to first.(please note that this perk is much easier to get with might characters than magic characters, path is different: might character is advanced logistics -> scouting -> swift mind, magic character requires the same but additionally basic enlightenment -> arcane intuition)

now let's examine how this perk is useful for each race:

necro: necromancers specialize in dark, and frenzy is often the way to go. for example, if you are fighting sylvan and manage to go before his crystal dragons do(better if you have the staff of the netherworld), its pretty much game over. if you have deidre, the necromancer set and howl of terror, then you might consider using banshee howl.

academy: academy is very versatile, so there are a number of things you can do, but let's look at one of the commonest problems: the enemy has dragons/paladins/archangels/grim raiders/etc. that can reach your titans first, effectively blocking them off and inflicting a powerful first strike. if your hero gets to go first and is of a high level(say 25+) you should phantom force your titans(also place them on the left corner). the clone appears adjacent to your own unit on top and one tile to the right.
now you have blocked off a potential double attack from dragons; furthermore, because your hero is so high level, your phantoms probably get to go close to right away, scoring a big free hit on the enemy's dragons! Also, now the enemy hero has to think of countering the phantom!
tip: the best way to do this - try to mentor a knight with swift mind(recall that might characters get this perk more easily) and summoning magic + unicorn horn bow. equipped with mini artifacts and hero combat skill enhancers, the titans are going to smack the enemy silly!

haven: the knight's key unit is the paladin/champion. everything else is just decoration klaus w/ swift mind and phantom forces can allow for a powerful free strike with champions/paladins, not to mention that they are now 2 tiles closer to the enemy! (anyone wants corrupted soil now?)
tip: maeve can cast mass haste first and drastically raise the initiative of all units for the remainder of the battle. she is one of the characters worth getting eternal light for to counter mass slow.

warlock: never thought of using red dragons before? now's the time! phantom and attack! or blow your enemy away while they are still clustered together!

ranger: phantom crystal dragons or dirael vs non-necro: rain of arrows wasp swarm or rain of arrows frenzy or rain of arrows etc. sylvan is so overpowered already anyways...

demon lord: frenzy or phantom archdevils

dwarves: armageddon + master of fire/fire resistance, your enemies lose defense and take damage, while your units take much less damage and resist the armor damaging abilities. you can also phantom magma/lava dragons, but you would need tactics, windstrider boots, and/or aura of swiftness to reach the enemy. you can also cast divine guidance on your thunder thanes + rune of battle rage to devastate the enemy or divine guidance on dragons + rune of charge.

barbarian: your untamed cyclops are often a source of worry because of frenzy and because they have a speed of 5, making it hard to reach the enemy. well it is possible to reach the enemy first!
you will need tactics, windstrider boots, and the perk aura of swiftness. your barbarian hero will also need the spell word of the chief. if your enemy does not have tactics and you luckily positioned your cyclops properly. WHA-BAM!!! Half of the enemy army might disappear!
2 side notes about this: kilghan, mostly considered useless, can easily get aura of swiftness because he starts with leadership and recruitment. he is a good hero to use with this tactic.
kragh getting swift mind is useless because of his special pounder ability. however: if you get the artifact set weapons of might, the pounder ability counts as an attack, and then you will get to go 30% earlier on your next move! effectively giving him swift mind!

battle on!


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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 20, 2008 07:03 PM

that reminds me my favorite strategy on H2 : cloning phoenix. the sorceress was my favorite hero because of the phoenix.
but in H5 I find phantom force harder to use, I'm not sure when the phantom will act. sometimes you clone an unit, and the phantom gets killed before it can act.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 20, 2008 07:13 PM

It's a matter of level and luck. At higher level it acts almost instantly.
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BlizzardBoy
BlizzardBoy


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 20, 2008 08:09 PM

Quote:

demon lord: frenzy or phantom archdevils



**phantom nightmares
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asdf

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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted October 22, 2008 04:36 PM
Edited by broadstrong at 16:37, 22 Oct 2008.

@Ebbafan,

  Good analysis of swift mind, I did get this once on my haven hero and it is certainly a good perk for heroes to have a first turn.  This is useful for using those racial abilities that need to aim a friendly/enemy troop (retaliation strike, mark of the wizard etc).

  The reason why magic heroes require arcane intuition is probably that a hero casting magic (and before every other troop can act) can potentially cause greater damage / tip the battle to his/her favour, but then, arcane intuition is not very useful, even for magic heroes.  So I am quite inclined to say that swift mind is more for might heroes (especially knights, rangers and barbarians since they are hardy offered sorcery) even though magic heroes (who easily gets offered sorcery, except runemages) are supposed to benefit even more.

  What's more, it also prevents the rangers and demonlords from obtaining their ultimate abilities (which are both quite good), though this probably is immaterial in a short game or small map.

  If swift mind can make logistics game-changing, then I feel that teleport assault is even more game-changing (why else is it not available to the might factions like haven and sylvan?)

  Perhaps you can give an analysis on teleport assault?
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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 22, 2008 05:47 PM

@broadstrong: teleport assault can be very useful, but is very situational. obviously being able to properly place your thunder thanes, hydras, war dancers, etc. in the right place can be devastating. however, your hero without swift mind is not that fast. by the time he gets to cast teleport, many of the good positions to take advantage of may have changed already. furthermore the unit you want to teleport may have been hit already by someone or something, making it less effective.

swift mind is much more flexible because there are so many things you can do: although the key in my opinion is to get a powerful first strike whether it is a super damaging destructive spell or a lucky powerful double hit by a level 7. after this first hit, the game drastically shifts in favor of the attacker. this is why wyngaal is often banned.

notice that swift mind cannot be combined with teleport assault. if this were possible it would indeed be game changing. the next best things are swift mind with divine guidance, word of the chief or phantom forces(at high levels).

happy playing!

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Locksley
Locksley


Promising
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Wielding a six-string
posted May 20, 2009 01:03 AM
Edited by Locksley at 03:06, 20 May 2009.

Hello
I wonder when it is best to pick up logistics. It should be early so I get the most out of it, but at the same time I feel that it is more important to develop the skills I need for creeping and defeating the enemy. Do you get logistics asap or a little later when you have developed the most necessary skills?

Examples, logistics problems and questions:

A common knight has empathy, retribution and light magic with mass spells. If you want logistics as well, perhaps with swift mind or familiar ground, you need close to 25 levels. That's usually too many.

For creeping with summoning or destructive you need few levels but you often want swift mind with a magic hero, so you have to pick enlightenment and logistics too. And it could be difficult to get perks that you want if you pick too many skills. For example if you go for summoning, swift mind and dark and you need Master of Mind, MoM may not show up.

If your knight gets logistics early, but you don't want any log-perks, the light magic master of X-perk you have the spells for may be hidden. The solution is to get light + perks before logistics, but when you finally get expert logistics and move 30 % faster, much of the creeping is already done. If it's not a big map maybe it's better to pick a few levels in a battle-skill instead and go to your enemy?

To get tent, ballista and flaming arrows you need many levels, and if you pick logistics you may be weak in the (shatter) magic department. When your ballista is gone you have to fight with expert attack, archery, logistics and some (shatter) magic. Not so hot. The movement bonus is lesser too since you pick logistics after your creeping/fighting skills. You can skip logistics and get luck/defense/leadership instead and you have a better end fight, or keep logistics and get luck/defense/morale artifacts. But since both players usually will have artifacts like those, noone have a clear advantage.

Of course logistics helps to get to the rich places first, but can attack, archery, logistics, (shatter) magic and the few strong  artifacts your enemy lacks make you win against a hero with better skills? (The extra resources will help though).
If you go for magic instead of war machines this is not a problem (no lost skills), but if you get other might skills instead of war machines, can your hero be strong enough to really use its movement advantage to creep faster?

Logistics often feels like the skill I want but don't have levels for.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted May 20, 2009 08:43 AM

That's a good question that you may have provided the answers yourself!

While it's somewhat easier to say in what type of map logistics is good for, I have not seen many comments on which level should you accept logistics.

I don't pick logistics if I still am looking for another high-priority skill/perk that I need (eg. empowered spells for warlock or MotW for wizard).

As you said having another skill early ruins your chances with perks
because often you don't want the logistics perks cluttering up the level up choices.

The main thing for an average creeper like me is to determine if I can still creep OK while having logistics rather than another skill that would help with creeping (like higher magic skill or mass-spells).  If creep OK, then logistics would be more attractive.

In fact, I think the estimated level that you would reach when the main battle begins might influence you there.

Of course if your main will meet enemy main after level 25, then probably go for logistics early

for example given: knight has not as good creeping: logistics early makes it too hard to get empathy/retrib/exp light/MoW/stormwind plus enlightenment. [exception is swift mind for quick mass slow & vs inferno who will take all your mana]

but destructive warlock good creeping plus swift mind perk is a good choice

sylvan not sure because they have so many good choices.  I'd pick swift mind for Wyngaal as creatures act fast & a quick mass spell really boosts the features

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 20, 2009 10:21 AM

Some maps really require logs - say rat race - so there you don't have many options and taking the risk that it will appear later is not a good idea. Some early losses are acceptable if you get to the riches first. Ideally though I'd like to get them sometime late week 1. My leveling typically hits lvl 17+ end of week 2 so you can't complain you don't have a spot for them, what you gain by maxing logs early you get it back and more. Anyway week 1 you don't need the extra movement since your options are limited anyway, it's what happens after you have gotten a few levels and week 2 army.

One example when playing Haggash(early days when I still used lame heroes ) I had noticed that if you get logs early chances are you will miss warmachines or get them too late to matter in your early creeping. But if you aimed for flaming and machines you always got logs, not that it's hard for barbarians with logs being a key skill. Telsek on the other hand that starts with warmachines has the fastest and most reliable creeping. You get a few on tent/ballista, max logs and then get the rest of your skills at your leisure while defeating any neutral on sight. With sylvan and inferno it's an instant pick as well since they have their tricks for creeping. Dungeon is a bit harder to tell, what you need is logs and enlightenment and if you pick one the other may delay a bit. I tend to go for enlight first there. All necro needs is summoning which you can max asap so logs is also a no brainer when it pops up.. In others it rarely appears anyway.
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted May 20, 2009 10:25 AM

For me it's instant pick. The sooner the better.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted May 20, 2009 10:27 AM

And then there are players like above that will creep and be awesome anyway
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.

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SKPRIMUS
SKPRIMUS


Promising
Supreme Hero
The One and the Prime
posted May 20, 2009 11:26 AM

Quote:
For me it's instant pick. The sooner the better.

Hey samiekl,
interesting views of good player considering you asked "Why is logistics a must-have skill?..." in the "Which skill do you always pick?" thread

[I know the words are different but essentially meaning you'll always pick logistics? ]

Anyway, if you were knight hero & both enlightenment & logistics popped up at same level up (plus some other unrelated perks), I suppose you'd pick logistics?
[unlikely I know]

Hmm, essentially this may mean that getting artifacts/gold mines/treasures are too important (including more gold for more Haven training) vs 5-6 levels of other useful combat skill/perks which one would choose instead of logs?

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