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| Thread: tell me who is fair |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Kispagat
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 03:59 PM |
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I have a very easy reply abt what kindda trick is not "honorable" and what it is.
If you do hnr with your main hero, taking the risk that you would be killed cuz your opponent may wear shackles, you cant reteat, this is ok.
If you have shackles or shackles not exists on the map, you must not do hnr with your main hero and retreat before opponent had a chance to cause you pain.
HNR or kamikaze attacks or traps made by secondaries are always dishonorable.
So in my mind Natalka did nothing wrong, her enemy should have considered the option that she maybe flee, naturally causing as much damage as possible.
But.. This is just my opinion, thats how I see it. And.. no rules was the rule, so this is part of the game, it was normal for me to win by mentored secondaries, even tough I dont think its really honorable.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 15, 2008 03:59 PM |
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Quote:
I must disagree with you 100% here Strider! Imagine Dungeon team shows up with only Blood Maidens configured like this. 7 stacks...
276-1-1-1-1-1-1
And the 276 stack runs over and attacks and kills 3 Dragons and then surrenders.. Now how is that NOT hit and run just cause they only used army? Its SAME thing as casting Meteor and the leaving.
Rofl, how much cost to surrender with 280 maidens?
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Elit
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 04:04 PM |
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Quote:
In HeroesLeague they solved this problem by their MOD where magic races have very hard access to mentoring.
Good example for bad slove problem. Maybe its your suggestion again.  I can mentor easy dungeon/necro/academy hero with nonmagic main race. For example its perfect and easy with Sylvan.
Quote:
IMO, HNR can happen only with magic and not physical attack from units. Basically, attacking with magic means no risk of losing attacker's own army while using units to deal dmg one risks everything - after all to kill large number of adversary's troops there is required relatively the same amount on attacker's side.
Quote:
Actualy Natalka did nonmagic hit/run and did it very effective. Its can be well done in h3 too. So your definition is bad.
What we can do about it? Hmm noting. Its depend from honor on players. Hit/Run is most effective and dishonor tactics in heroes. Most from times its not possible to be conter. But Hit/Run make only problems. My suggestion to all is to avoid H/R nevermind if they have rule for it or not.
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 04:06 PM |
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those who think hnr is dishonorable are pussies
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted August 15, 2008 04:07 PM |
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Edited by Natalka at 16:14, 15 Aug 2008.
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Quote:
Also natalka used the very same tactics with me. I attacked, she let her flaming ballista kill half my army and then retreated while the battle was only halfway. No strider, I'm pretty sure she knew what she was doing and she should have known better since that because we argued badly about it.
Elvin yes i did but i also lost nearly all my centaurs while being with Haggash, so it`s not hnr it is that i sensed i am losing the battle and retreated.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 04:19 PM |
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Hit&run does not require retreating on 1st turn. That was a ballista hit&run and you certainly were not close to losing for several turns to come. In any case my point was that I had warned you about such situations.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 04:25 PM |
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 15, 2008 04:42 PM |
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Quote:
those who think hnr is dishonorable are pussies
I don't think you know what "honor" means then.
Of course, I think what you said was "Those who honor their battles are pussies" 
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 04:44 PM |
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Edited by samiekl at 16:50, 15 Aug 2008.
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Quote:
yeah baby. Ninja code of honor!
These romanians don't understand anything. Who the hell gave them access to computers???
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 15, 2008 04:49 PM |
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Ninja didn't have honor. Those were samurais. I think you have mistaken them 
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 04:51 PM |
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 15, 2008 05:02 PM |
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Also I forgot to mention, samurais did not employ "dirty tricks" like ninjas, precisely because of their "code of honor"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 05:04 PM |
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Damn you Death, how can you doubt samiekl's code of honour?
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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samiekl
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 05:10 PM |
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Ninja Samiekl's from the clan of Hidden Sword code of honor. Please
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Strider_HL
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 06:19 PM |
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Why attack and retreating with physical force is not HNR:
1. Surrender costs. It's easy to understand that to deal big dmg, attacker's army must be powerfull as well.
2. Risk. Contrary to magical HNR where you can deal insane dmg even if 4 stacks of your single digit units have already perished, attacker might actually lose great ratio of his key units (arcanes, dragons, etc.). In magical HNR you risk nothing (assuming no schackles) even if ATB is not favourable and opponent gets some action.
Summarizing, physical attack is costly (most maps are quite tight with money) and has big risk to lose troops versus magical HNR that is free of charge and has no army loss.
Also, if we were to consider physical attack for HNR then where is the border? Is attack with executioners vs. dwarfs a HNR? How big should the gap be between initiatives of attacker and defender? It's a never ending story...
To me - if opponent enters battle with substantial amount of his key swift units to deal some damage I would gladly try and punish him for that. After all, by definition - if there is big risk and expenditure involved then it just cannot be a HNR.
As I said earlier - the best way to avoid all this bottomless discussion is to add schackles in maps. I'm glad that almost all popular maps on the market have this feature. In such case, the only dishonorable tactic is to use kamikaze.
To Elvin: mate, that is the problem with flaming arrows if you cannot eliminate ballista fast. IMO, heroes 5 were better off without this perk. But as it is - you have to learn living with it and invent counter measures against this monster. Now you sound pissed off just by watching your army perish even if that couldn't be called HNR by no means (again IMO).
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted August 15, 2008 06:26 PM |
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I would simply ban the damn Mentoring ability - it's just one of the worst ideas Nival could come up with.
Without Mentoring and some Shackles on the map, there won't be more abuses like this
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted August 15, 2008 07:04 PM |
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aaah, the drama threads always seem to grow faster than anything else haha. Hit and run is part of the game, I really find this situation a joke, when the opponent whines about it -- as if its a really big deal (and it sounds like the opponent would win in the long run anyways)?
Are you really forced to fight one final battle and then call it quits? Thats just lame, boring, and undynamic. Once again, TOH is no rules, unless agreed upon mutually by players.
Part of the problem is that these maps are so gold-heavy, that you can surrender without gold being a true financial hit.
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gmmari
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 07:14 PM |
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We use too many rules for playing a game or we forgot to ask this rules before to start..
I find best games in this day not setting any rules and this is a good way to cancel any problem.
Natalka you did nothing bad in this game but next time be prepared for any situacion or be more accurate with the rules in the beginning
But i'm the last player i can give you advice..I have done the same mistake with you..no more wingal for you 
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perathekojot
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2008 07:58 PM |
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No need to hide my name: pera.the.kojot, I too was considering of posting on same thing, but my laziness prevailed. Because what I did, I did intentionaly, and do not have any regrets, even so, I was glad to do it, because you deserved it. Only remains sore experience of what this game can become. And sole reason for it is your behavior. What you need is to play some more games and feel community, what I like in playing in TOH is not just a game, if I only played single player I would quit long ago. It's also about people you play against, or if you want with. It's certainly isn't about cheap tricks and winning at all costs.
So here are some details:
First of all she tried to make me into playing let's fights vs. she as Yrwanna, as in my short experience is pretty close to instant loss on that map. Thanks to certain Ninja from the clan of Hidden Sword code of honor. So I said: yes. "She doesn't play random." I choose Lethos
Then mirror was an issuse. I wouldn't let her play dungeon, even when she insisted. So we decide to go with other races. She choose first and took sylvan: Ossir, I took Vladimir. Great game on my behalf: early warpath, motn, summon elementals perk: summoning and logistics are "the fastest" skills for necro. Cleared both castles area and broke 30 titans in day 10. Two days later archangels were no problem at all. With the help of enlightment, it was really easy, no losses and full mana after each battle. Only those summon hive and wasp swarm animation are really damn slow. At that point I saw her main at the shore near first town. Went to center, and the game crashed again. Next time reload tooked us back two turns, and when we finally continued sim turns went off one turn then before d/c. Btw, there were 7-8 d/c during the game, and all of them on her side. I even had a feeling, when there were 3 consecutive d/c happened, that she was trying to pass something big and scary, and kept failing every time. To due the internet problem, we finished for the day. Next time we load: she passed effortlessly and a lot quicker then the time before. So she charged for a hit. She even admitted that she had done it before against someone. I was helpless, just watched the whole thing: once casted suffering with blocked archliches and killed 1-2 pixies for a cost of 15 wraiths (would have been double unelss for a 4 skeleton warrior next to them). She surrendered and I earned 20K gold. For those who are insisting on the cost issuse, next day I had 60K+ of gold, all army bought and upgraded, bought all secondaries game allows, no use for that money, in short. Luxury, man I even used memory mentor with secondary. So, to say it mildly I was pissed. And decided to teach her a lesson: any can play dirty and using tricks. It took me only 2 days to mentor all my heroes and wait for her to come. As she did, right away. Going for a kill this time.
It seems to me that some people don't get that she had that idea all the time. Game was lost to her, she was slow, with fewer army and stats. And she decided to do anything to prevent it. And that anything was the issue. So, I decided, to do my best not to lose And to the good lawyer who is trying to make rules again, I say: I am not convinced. But sure would like to know what would you do in my place: surrendered, charged ahead for another salvo of arcanes, took faith in swift mind and make a gamble... Or, maybe, you would be the one using natalka's "strategy". Could it be that you are the one, and I quote: " i have to say two things / 1. u are stupid / 2. u played unfair / because / 1. i didn`t do hit & run because / 1.u attacked / 2. i used physical attacks / i heard this from greater player than u / of whose strength u will never reach" end quote. It was that greatness who teached you that very tactic, as she said during a game. And I say to a greater player then me, whose strenght I will never reached: stop making rules, nobody appointed you to do it. And keep your puppy on a leash. You can hit and run with magic, with troops and with ballista, and sometimes with none. I actually had a Helmar with w/m, flaming, triple ballista, last stand and expert dark, third in line on a puppy. To Elvin and Elit: you got it all right, and Elvin even experienced it. As for starting rules: I don't even remember them, last 30+ games I played no hit and run, and after I told her that I don't remember them, she said that we haven't made that rule. That conversation ofc happened after attack.
So I guess some people can play dirty but can not take same in return. And some can only play dirty I choose 99% of other, stand-up guys, in which company I dont get pissed, revangefull, and in the end do not waste what little time I can spare to this great game.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2008 08:12 PM |
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I had that feeling, there are hints about her. I have played with pera and he has given me every reason to consider him honorable and a good sport. As for Yrwanna on let's fight I have reached my utopia on lvl 22 by end of week 2, that's insane. Some people suffer from the best hero syndrome
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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