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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Sorcery vs. Leadership+Empathy
Thread: Sorcery vs. Leadership+Empathy This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
outshined
outshined

Tavern Dweller
posted August 21, 2008 07:53 PM
Edited by outshined at 19:58, 21 Aug 2008.

Sorcery vs. Leadership+Empathy

I was a bit inspired from the other thread about Might vs. Magic balance in the Dungeon faction.

At the first glance, it looks like Sorcery is primarily for heavily magic dependant factions, like Dungeon, Necro, and Academy, while Empathy is more for might factions, giving them a more combat-oriented option to increase hero's action speed.

However, as I think about the pros and cons, it occurs to me that Empathy may just be outright better.  Lets take a look.

As I understand the skills:

Expert Sorcery causes the hero to begin filling his ATB gauge at .3, as opposed to 0, whenever he casts.  In other words, you get a fixed 30% bonus whenever you cast (but not whenever you do other actions, like use abilities or attack, as far as I know).

Meanwhile, Empathy increases the Hero's ATB gauge, whatever it is, by .1 (10%) whenever a creature gets positive morale.  Assuming you have the full compliment of 7 stacks getting morale the maximum 50% of the time, you would expect to see the hero gain .35 ATB per round (and that assumes that no creatures get two or more opportunities to act while the hero fills his gauge, which is quite possible with higher initiative/hasted creatures.)  This increased ATB speed can furthermore be used to do whatever the hero would like, wether it be casting a spell or attacking, and it also stacks with the extra initiative of Mass spell usage, unlike Sorcery.  

So, it seems to me that Empathy is both faster in ideal conditions, and furthermore is not a "selfish" skill.  Sorcery only benefits the hero; only his spells become faster.  However, Empathy is based on the root of Leadership, meaning not only is the hero faster, but his troops see the benefit of faster turns from positive morale, as well.

Breaking some more points down in a bit by bit comparison:

Sorcery Pros
-Fixed bonus is consistent, predictable.
-Unlocks perks that increase spellpower, delay enemy casting, or reduce mana cost.
-May allow casting of higher level untrained spells (level 3)
-Easily available for magic-heavy factions.

Sorcery Cons
-Doesn't benefit Attack, Abilities, or Mass Spells at all.
-Doesn't benefit the Hero's army directly, at all.
-Depending on the hero and how long the game runs, decreased mana usage perks may not be important.  Once you get enough mana, it's rarely a problem.  
-Even if you learn level 3 spells with Magic Insight, casting spells you don't have mastery in is generally a less effective use of your time than using spells you have skills in.  

Empathy Pros
-Random bonus may be higher than Sorcery on average, allowing for greater than 30% hero speed increase.
-Leadership benefits the whole army by making the Hero's creatures go faster, too.
-ATB bonus is useful for any hero action, not just casting.
-Stacks with Mass spells.  
   
Empathy Cons
-Effective ATB bonus will decrease with time in a final battle setting as the Hero loses stacks, or in a creeping setting where fewer stacks are fielded.  
-Leadership may be harder to access for most magic factions. (You can work around this in some cases, such as taking a magic faction hero that starts with Leadership, such as Kythra).  
-Empathy often has additional prerequisites, which requires taking more skills and may interfere with taking other perks.  It probably disqualifies you from taking another major Perk, Mentoring.
-Empathy ties up part of the Leadership tree, often denying access to other perks like Aura of Swiftness, which in turn qualify for great Perks like Retribution.
-Leadership, and therefore Empathy, are generally useless for Necro faction. (No morale)

Overall, to me, it seems like if you have the time to take the extra skill investment needed and can bear to lose those few perks in the Leadership tree, the huge benefit of gaining army speed at the same time as gaining hero speed outweighs Sorcery's hero-only benefit.  Aside from Necro faction, who gain no benefit from Leadership, it seems like a pretty good option for any other Magic faction if you can get it.  



 



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zamfir
zamfir


Promising
Supreme Hero
Allez allez allez
posted August 21, 2008 08:22 PM

Perhaps, but I wouldn't choose Leadership for my magic hero at all.
It takes some time untill you get Emphaty and I'd rather pick some other magic skills.
I guess that Sorcery + Logistics, for example, beats sorcery + Empathy.  
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted August 21, 2008 08:36 PM

Yes i agree that sometimes(or even more often) the Empathy is more powerfull than Sorccery. And sometimes even a knight without it can outrun the Wizard who casted a spell(having Sprccery at Exp Lv)
The combo Sorcery+Empathy can really be powerfull, but i also use them seperatly if i have no Sorccery then take The Leadership->Empathy way.


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ebbafan
ebbafan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted August 21, 2008 08:58 PM

a good analysis.

sorcery is pure magic, like attack is pure might, so it depends on your hero build. the perks from sorcery can really help if you are purely a spellcaster. if you are aiming for a hybrid m&m hero, no question empathy is better.

but bear in mind that if you face a powerful necromancer with the right artifacts, you may actually be negatively affected by empathy because he can greatly reduce your morale.

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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 21, 2008 08:59 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 21:00, 21 Aug 2008.

Depends, here is what I prefer:

Haven - Leadership
Inferno - Nothing (low chance for Leadership)
Necropolis - Sorcery
Sylvan - Leadership
Dungeon - Sorcery
Academy - depends... most likely Sorcery
Fortress - depends again
Stronghold - sometimes both - Leadership and Shout (equivalent of Sorcery)
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Adrius
Adrius


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted August 21, 2008 09:11 PM

Heh, Kythra starts with Leadership

Too bad her speciality isn't that good in comparison to other Dungeon heroes.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted August 21, 2008 09:31 PM

Kythra owns everything once she gets Empathy.

Seriously, Empathy is almost broken, particularly in combination with Sorcery. Did that once with a Runemage, he literally spammed Circles Of Winter (with Cold Death ) all over the place. Extremely powerfull.

Notice, however, that Empathy normally requires you to invest 6 levels in the skill whereas Sorcery only requires 3. Also, for some classes, there are external prerequisits for Empathy (normally in Enlightenment > Scholar) which may prevent you from choosing Intelligence.
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samiekl
samiekl


Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2008 09:59 PM
Edited by samiekl at 22:01, 21 Aug 2008.

I had an empathy + sorcery Kythra and sometimes acted twice before Jhora did. This is an old trick against wizards and counterspell in general.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 22, 2008 12:34 AM

Let's take it simpler, leadership is rarer for a reason And since you rarely can get empathy at all it's hardly a comparison. Also depends against enemy faction. Consider for instance that lategame sylvan kills entire stacks effortlessly effectively making empathy a useless perk.
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adon
adon


Known Hero
posted August 22, 2008 03:53 AM

I think Leadership + Empathy might be more powerful than Sorcery, but it would take a lot of luck with selections and time to get it, whereas sorcery would start working right away and is easy for magic factions to get.

35% under ideal circumstances and at the cost of some useful perks versus solid 30% (Except Mass spells which are shorter delay anyway), 3 levels, and no wasted perks?

I'll stick with Sorcery and use my levels for expert magic schools earlier on.  But later on if I already have scholar, I might try it out.

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Isabel
Isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted August 22, 2008 06:30 AM

If you have Expert Leadership, all creatures are of the same alignment, and a "compatible" hero, then your overall morale will be +5. Assuming you have seven stacks, as Adon have said, the expected boost in ATB value is 35%, slightly better than Socery.

But morale can be reduced, and if some of your stacks are wiped out, the ATB bonus is actually smaller than Socery. I think I will only take Empathy for might factions, like Stronghold and Haven.

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Kispagat
Kispagat


Famous Hero
posted August 22, 2008 07:43 AM

I think empathy is underestimated, so quite rare and there is an arti set, you can get the same (I always hope to have that, and choose another skill)

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RedFury
RedFury


Hired Hero
posted August 22, 2008 09:30 AM

Haggash (Centaur Commander) + Stunning blow +  Empathy FTW.

Split centaurs in 5 stacks, and apply Powerful Blow to the next centaurs in ATB.
Without empathy you get around 2 Powerful blows out before the neutral stack moves, with empathy you get 3 hits, and with Stunning blow the 3 turns into an 8 and lies down (infinity sign ). Mix in the "Archers dream" or "Lion's Spirit" (sadly you can't both) and your smile turns into a laughter a cyclops would be proud of

Besides, with a lot of mass spells, you are better of with empathy anyway since you could cast 0.4 or 0.3 after your first spell (if mass haste was cast, maybe even faster), but you are screwed if you stumble upon a week of balance, or if you play against morale cancelers (necro(Deirdre!!), Fright aura, Cloak of death shadow...), since empathy sadly works into the negative too.

P.S. what ability lets you see enemy heroes skills during battle? (arcane intuition or was it scholar or even silent stalker, not sure anymore, if any at all )

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted August 22, 2008 09:53 AM

Heehe unfortunately there is no such ability.
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"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
actions." Confucius

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RedFury
RedFury


Hired Hero
posted August 22, 2008 10:08 AM

Arcane Intuition
Allows hero to learn an unknown spell used by an enemy hero or creature in combat (hero must be able to learn the spell with regards to school,
level, etc.) and to see the contents of the enemy inventory.
That was what i meant, just forgot what it actually allows you to do

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VOkialBG
VOkialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted August 22, 2008 01:17 PM
Edited by VOkialBG at 13:26, 22 Aug 2008.

Quote:
Haggash (Centaur Commander) + Stunning blow + Empathy FTW.


Uh? Haggash? Why? If you like to try the Stunning Blow + Empathy combo why not Kragh?

He can use Empathy with his natural hitting power. For Stronghold I like theKhan's post here.

Army and hero build. Isn't Haggash better for army build? Again I'll pick Leadership with her..., same for Kragh.

Quote:
so quite rare and there is an arti set


Uh? With Haven you can get bonus after every creature. It's great...
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Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 22, 2008 01:45 PM

Haven - Empathy
Inferno - I prefer mpathy
Necropolis - Sorcery with Counterspell
Sylvan - Empathy is good, but not the bestest of choices IMO. I'd take Sorcery + Counterspell
Dungeon - Sorcery + Either Distract or Arcane Excellence. (with Kythra, I'd take BOTH Sorcery/Distract and Empathy)
Academy - Sorcery with Distract (and Warlock's Luck)
Fortress - I prefer Empathy
Stronghold - Empathy all the way. Shout is a crappy and rare skill.
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broadstrong
broadstrong


Promising
Known Hero
Level 20 Vassal of Light
posted August 23, 2008 02:52 AM
Edited by broadstrong at 02:55, 23 Aug 2008.

Haven, Sylvan, Stronghold --- Empathy (which works very well for these "might" factions

Academy, Dungeon, Necropolis --- Sorcery (maybe Kythra is an exception, since she STARTS with leadership skill)

Inferno --- seems like Sorcery because it is more likely to be offered, but I feel this faction to be more "might" than magic, so empathy can be useful (to get your hero into action earlier)

Fortress --- both are possible, but leadership is more likely to be offered, so empathy.

Empathy is a good ability, abilities like estates or recruitment won't be missed, in fact though leadership is a good skill to have (except for necromancers), its abilities does have some drawbacks:-
(1) Basic perks not practical for all heroes to have
   Recruitment
   It only works after day 7, hero stationed in town, and a 3/2/1 increase (very unlikely that even half of your heroes can be stationed in towns on day 7, well at least that is so for my XL games), not to mention that most players (including me) feel this ability needs to be buffed.
   Estates
   Giving 250 gold per day is great, but I don't see the need for most of your heroes to have it, just grab gold mines and those gold-giving artifacts...
   Diplomacy
   All heroes having this?  Then there will be lots of free troops, but this faction mixing can affect morale, not to mention that your hero (or rather, you the player) has fewer opportunities to hone combat skills and tactics, which means lower stats for your hero.  In the right situations (week of same faction troops, neutral army consisting of hero's specialisation, and so on) however, diplomacy is not bad, and most factions need it for getting empathy.

(2) Most other perks too faction-specific
   6 of the advanced perks are "single-faction" perks; so each faction, frankly, does not have that many perks to get (though this can be an advantage in that it is easier to focus)

This leaves only:-
(3) Aura of swiftness --- good ability but not all factions get this, and in TotE haven does not get this (sigh...)
(4) Divine Guidance --- makes your slower troops (typically ranged troops and slow tank walkers) get their turn, or makes fast troops take another action, and all for NO MANA cost --- imo among the best advanced perks anywhere, and most factions can have this.
(5) Empathy --- high morale hastens your hero's turn, which can be a great asset in certain situations, and all factions have this (I know necro players scorn at this, but... it allows necro heroes to be hired to lead other faction troops, otherwise they become too faction-specific)

This imo partly explains why empathy is good, not just in iself, but because the other abilities aren't that super.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted August 23, 2008 11:03 AM

Hmm diplomacy is kinda a must if you go the leadership way you know. I don't care about units from other factions but if a lots of hunters join you don't need more It pays off, who cares about might skills when you can have a superior army.
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted August 23, 2008 11:49 PM

Hmm Diplomacy is a skill that is so easy for me to forget that it can be usefull, but wait let me se the manual, Only 10% increase the chance of hostile to join, and reduces(cost of recruting from 3 to 2).
Hmm useful or not.
Yes if you have luck and you will find the stack that actualy join you

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