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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Spoils of War and Battles Underwater
Thread: Spoils of War and Battles Underwater
Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 09, 2008 06:29 AM
Edited by Daystar at 06:39, 09 Sep 2008.

Spoils of War and Battles Underwater

Spoils of War
When creatures are fought and killed, you get XP and a list of the dead.  Congratulations.  And I assume that the dead are just sort of left there or something, as you don't see the hero carting around corpses or something.  To me this seems like a terrific waste.  If you demolish Lots of War Dancers with your Horde of Peasants, wouldn't a few of them grab a few of those nice swords?  Or when a Crusader exterminates a Unicorn, mightn't he take the horn and powder it as a healing potion?  Or perhaps after a Succubus kills a Dragon she might rip off the wings and drape them about herself for protection?  Perhaps she knows some manner of Arcanery that let's her fly with them?

The question is how to implement it?  If all creatures dropped massively powerful artifacts allowing flying or peasants to can cast the Implosion spell, then those nice handy borders between low level and high level would crumble.  Thus it is obvious that drops must be rather limited.  Let's take an example:



Photobucket is buggy: http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b20/DotLW/DragonandCrusader.jpg

These are some of the things the Dragon and the Crusader Drops.  It works on a basis of Stacks killed.  Spoils are placed in the Satchel slot, along with herbs, Academy's mini Artifacts, Necromancer's bones, and potions. Slots are not unlimited, but they are numerous.  However, when an artifact is equipped on a creature it is still in that slot.  (Only one artifact per creature, just like Herbs and Potions)

Some abilities allow one's own creatures to be sacrificed to give spoils, such as the Inferno's Wrestand the Necromancer's Harvest, though the process is brutal and reduces the chance of good spoils.  Also, the Academy can learn the Anatomy skill, which increases the chances of finding good spoils from an enemy.  

(See Invisible: See invisible creatures/landmines etc on that creature's turn)  

~*~Underwater Battles are coming later~*~
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 09, 2008 06:39 AM

This is a very interesting idea.  Can't wait to hear more. Maybe limit it to number of slots = teir?  Just a thought.
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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 09, 2008 06:41 AM
Edited by Daystar at 06:42, 09 Sep 2008.

huh?  The slots are on the Hero's artifact page.
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Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 09, 2008 06:42 AM

Quote:
Slots are not unlimited, but they are numerous


Or am I reading this wrong?
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 09, 2008 06:50 AM

While I do see a few questions that need to be addressed here - I will return for a in-depth review later - I think this is a wonderful idea. I love the idea of being able to add objects to your creature stacks to improve them. It also gives the Spoils Of War skill a whole new dimension.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 09, 2008 06:54 AM
Edited by Daystar at 06:55, 09 Sep 2008.

yeah where is that skill?  I got the idea from playing Sylvan and getting it but I couldn't find it on AoH later?
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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Azagal
Azagal


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
posted September 09, 2008 10:35 AM

Daystar to the rescue~~~~
Yeah Spoils of War really needs a boost I mean the skill has no impact what soever on the game flow... the bonuses are way to insignificant. Great idea. But perhaps a bit powerful.
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"The superior man is modest in
his speech but exceeds in his
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 09, 2008 11:50 AM

Well, according to Myticals posts above, I think there's a bit of confusion on exactly how this would work - but here I'll share a few thoughts on my own.

I think this could be coupled to a (more or less - we had that in WOG also) new feature where you could equip units with "artifacts" that would offer them small - and I emphasize small - bonuses to their combat stats.

I really like the idea of being able to salvage things from units you destroy - however, I think in order to make it not too complicated, perhaps you should be able to salvage only one (or a couple of at tops) things from each unit. Here are a couple of examples:

Demon: Demonhide > Offers 5 % Fire damage reduction.
Sworddancer: Elven Sword > Offers +1 Attack.
Hunter: Longbow > Increases range by 1 tile.
Green Dragon: Dragon's Eye > Offers a 10 % chance of spotting an Invisible creature.
Black Dragon: Dragon Hide > Offers 10 % Magic Resistance.

A number of questions would need to be addressed then:

Chance of obtaining: How big is the chance of obtaining these items? Does it depend on the number of units fought? You fight a lot of low-level units during a game, in a standard game, you easily fight hundreds of demons, depending on your luck with creeps obviously, and this means that even a low percentage (~ 1 % per unit) will offer you a lot of items. On the other gand, you only fight a few high-level units, which means you have only a low chance of obtaining these (more powerful) items. I guess such a model would work fine, actually.

Number of items: As I see it, this subject is more complex. If you fight, say, 150 Demons, and maybe chance of obtaining a (complete) Demon Hide is 5 %, this offers you 7-8 Hides from such a combat. How would these work, then - could you equip your 320 peasants in these 7 Hides? Or would you only be able to put these on your 7 Angels?

Or, should it rather be something like a scaled effect, i.e.: Demon Hide offers Fire Immunity (100 %). You have 7 Hides and put them on your 320 Peasants, which grants you a 7/320*100 % = 2 % Fire Protection. If you later grant another 15 Hides, you can stack them on your Peasants, so that they now have 7 % Fire Protection - unless of course your stack size has gone up accordingly, which obviously decreases effective protection.

Personally, I like the latter model, because it makes it more "natural". You can choose to equip an item on a small stack granting large effect or on a large stack, granting smaller effect.

Number of items per unit: How many items can each unit have? Is it a paperdoll thing like the Hero - so that you could equip Demon Hides for Fire Protection on body, Longbow for incresed range in hand, etc. - or should each unit only be able to equip one item at a time? The latter obviously is more restrictive, but easier to balance. The former would probably be more fun, however.

Spoils Of War skill: Spoils of War is currently an ability (sub Luck > Resourcefulness) that offers you precious ressources after combat. It would be natural to have Spoils of War increase the chance of obtaining (or the number obtained) such items after combat.
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Malgore
Malgore


Adventuring Hero
posted September 09, 2008 01:05 PM
Edited by Malgore at 13:07, 09 Sep 2008.

Great idea Daystar!

It has logic and as for me it brings cool feeling of "Royal Hunt" to the game.

Yet there are few issues with that idea.

1. There might be a problem of overloading hero with low value arties. The perspective of having 20 elven swords and 50 peasant spears in inventory is pretty... strange.

I would suggest that arties become available after killing only 7 tier units. The player will be tempted not only by good experience cut, but also by possibility of receiving nice shiny things. At the same time the arties will worth fighting (dying?) for.  

Of course each 7 tier monster should have various arties for dropping as in your sample with Green Dragon. I guess the chance for receiving the coolest ones should be determines by Luck skill.

2. Availability of this cool feature for players without Spoils of war skill is in question. I guess it should be available for all, but those with Spoils of war skill will automatically receive the best arties from monsters.


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VokialBG
VokialBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted September 09, 2008 01:31 PM
Edited by VokialBG at 13:47, 09 Sep 2008.

Not bad but if there is cap or something, like only one "artifact" can be plased on one creature at any time, also level maches, level 7 artifact (droped by lv 7 creature) to be used anly by other level 7 creatures (omg peasant/mage with wings , or lol dragon with sword ), also I'll go for different types of arties, like "demonic", "death", "draconic" (not all of them), where demonic arties can be used by demons only (like the winds maybe ). I'll like to see "unique" to all enchants, this mean that you can equip only one creature with this enchant and etc...

EDIT: for "see invisible" it's better "cat eye"

Also we need types of armors and weapons. Imagine an assasin with heavy plate armor and 2 hand sword . So maybe the basic armor types like in wow - cloth, leather, mail and plate. cloth for the magical creatures (like mages, priests), leather for the assasins and the shamans, mail for the marksman and plate for the paladin...
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Isabel
Isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted September 09, 2008 02:14 PM

Quote:
A number of questions would need to be addressed then:

Chance of obtaining: How big is the chance of obtaining these items? Does it depend on the number of units fought? You fight a lot of low-level units during a game, in a standard game, you easily fight hundreds of demons, depending on your luck with creeps obviously, and this means that even a low percentage (~ 1 % per unit) will offer you a lot of items. On the other gand, you only fight a few high-level units, which means you have only a low chance of obtaining these (more powerful) items. I guess such a model would work fine, actually.


This system is very effective actually (Heroes is becoming RPG styled ), and it takes less working. You only have to set a fixed percentage chance of getting a drop instead of a difference chance for each creature.

Quote:
Personally, I like the latter model, because it makes it more "natural". You can choose to equip an item on a small stack granting large effect or on a large stack, granting smaller effect.


This idea is also adopted in WOG creatures experience, where a stack of rookies can mix with veterens and the exp is taken average. But in this case it will be of trouble: What if the item increase speed by 1? If you equip this on 100 peasants, they get +0.01 speed? You can round it down, of course, but it will take 100 items to get 1 speed... Same case for Attack, Defense and Mana, a +10 attack item in a stack of 50 will give +0.2 attack? It only works for percentage stuff.

Quote:
Number of items per unit: How many items can each unit have? Is it a paperdoll thing like the Hero - so that you could equip Demon Hides for Fire Protection on body, Longbow for incresed range in hand, etc. - or should each unit only be able to equip one item at a time? The latter obviously is more restrictive, but easier to balance. The former would probably be more fun, however.


Better for a creature to equip only one item at once, but can be numberous, like that in the above, 100 peasants equipping 10 demon hides.

Quote:
Spoils Of War skill: Spoils of War is currently an ability (sub Luck > Resourcefulness) that offers you precious ressources after combat. It would be natural to have Spoils of War increase the chance of obtaining (or the number obtained) such items after combat.


Even if we use this new system, it is still not great enough to be a seperate skill, better to be a hero specialization or racial.

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razor5
razor5


Famous Hero
Freezing...
posted September 09, 2008 02:28 PM

Very intresting idea,in my opinion this needs a QP

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 09, 2008 03:35 PM

Quote:
This idea is also adopted in WOG creatures experience, where a stack of rookies can mix with veterens and the exp is taken average. But in this case it will be of trouble: What if the item increase speed by 1? If you equip this on 100 peasants, they get +0.01 speed? You can round it down, of course, but it will take 100 items to get 1 speed... Same case for Attack, Defense and Mana, a +10 attack item in a stack of 50 will give +0.2 attack? It only works for percentage stuff.


Yes, you're right that it would be a problem when adding simple stats.  However, this would not be an issue if the items added some (passive?) ability that belonged to the native caster. For instance, you might obtain a Sword Of Deep Night from Vampire (Princes) which adds the Torpor ability to a creature. The chalenge would be to tweak numbers so that you obtain suitable numbers of the items. Let's say there was a base 10 % chance of salving an item from a monster, then from fighting 50 Vampire Torpors you'd obtain 5 swords. Giving these to your 300 Peasants would probably be a waste - only 2 % chance to trigger after strength calculation - whereas giving them to your 15 Angels might be just fine - 33 % chance to trigger after strength calculation, which is a pretty good bonus.

I think the power of this model is, that it solves several issues. You wouldn't need level restrictions on which items you equiped on which creatures, for instance: You would only get very few high-level items, meaning that equiping them on your low-level units would be a waste. In contrary, you'd get lots of low-level items that you could equip on your low-level units without problems.

Quote:
Quote:
Spoils Of War skill: Spoils of War is currently an ability (sub Luck > Resourcefulness) that offers you precious ressources after combat. It would be natural to have Spoils of War increase the chance of obtaining (or the number obtained) such items after combat.


Even if we use this new system, it is still not great enough to be a seperate skill, better to be a hero specialization or racial.


Spoils of War would still not be a skill, it would remain an ability wihtin Luck.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 09, 2008 05:50 PM

But perhaps it would be renamed, such as, Lucky Drop or something.  
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted September 09, 2008 11:25 PM
Edited by MattII at 03:30, 10 Sep 2008.

Not too keen on it currently, but maybe it could be changed, so that you need some sort of 'universal artificier' skill before you can craft the artifacts (obviously they're not going to go straight from corpses to artifacts without something in between).

You might also want to try a chance system based on the level of the creature and the number you're fighting (ie, chance for artifact is # creatures*creature level^2/1000, so 250 level 2 units will give you an artifact as likely as not, but so will 10 dragons).

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 10, 2008 02:46 AM

what you just posted...hurt too much...for my brain which is burnt out after two hour Physics lab...
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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted September 10, 2008 09:50 PM

I think this idea is very good.
There are some other things that we should refer to:

1. Gold - Like in might and magic, small amounts of Gold may be carried with creatures, and taken when they are killed. I think that this may be a good idea in HOMM, too.

2. Resources - Some special magical creatures may be carrying some recouases with them.
Dryad - Gem
Treant - Wood
Stone Golem - Ore
Shadow Witch - Crystal
Archlich - Mercury
etc.

You won't get 1 resource for each killed creature. There will be a certain chance of getting the recourse according to the creatures' tier. 3% for level (meaning, if you kill 100 pixies, you'll probably get around 3 gems), 5% for level two, 8% for level 3, 10% for level 4, 25% for level 5, 30% for level 6, and 40% for level 7.

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Daystar
Daystar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
posted September 11, 2008 05:05 AM

I like the idea!
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How exactly is luck a skill?

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