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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Upgrades Analysis
Thread: Upgrades Analysis This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 12, 2008 08:52 PM

Upgrades Analysis

Ok, first of all this is NOT another "which alternative is better". I simply compare their stats, and enumerate their Abilities, and add a few comments then. Hopefully this way some people will have a better understanding of some upgrade choices, the decision of which you'll want to use is yours.

Second of all, I'll have to explain how I'll calculate their stats. Well, it goes like this:

Here are some symbols: / = divide, * = multiplication

And We need some variables for easier calculation.

A = the difference between upgrade 1 and upgrade 2 attack value, multiplied by 0.05.

B = the difference between upgrade 1 and upgrade 2 defense value, multiplied by 0.05.

C = the average damage ratio of the two upgrades (average damage = (min damage + max damage) / 2)

D = the HP ratio of the two upgrades.

Now, the first thing is to recalculate A and B as the following (applies to both):

if it is a negative value (upgrade 1 att (A) or def (B) is LOWER than upgrade 2), then we make it positive (reverse the sign), add 1 and then calculate the reciprocal of it (1/[A or B]) and that's the new A or B.

if it is a positive value (upgrade 1 att (A) or def (B) is GREATER than upgrade 2), we just add 1.

After we calculate those new A and B values, the following operations follow: A * B * C * D

Let's name the result E.

Now we have to calculate the initiative. A simple Initiative/10 multiplier to the above equation would not be correct, since 10% extra initiative is BETTER than 10% extra damage. I mean, with more initiative, you act more. Acting more can provide you with more damage, but it's better since you can also move more, and perform different actions than just simple damaging the same target.

So, by the logic of Luck vs Morale (double damage versus 50% faster acting), acting more has a 2/1.5 = 1.33 greater effect than simple "more damage".

Therefore, to bring Initiative into equation, we need two more variables:

In case Initiative is above 10:
F = ((Initiative of upgrade 1) / 10 - 1) * 1.33 + 1

G = ((Initiative of upgrade 2) / 10 - 1) * 1.33 + 1

In case Initiative is below 10:
F = 1 / ((10 / (Initiative of upgrade 1) - 1) * 1.33 + 1)

G = 1 / ((10 / (Initiative of upgrade 2) - 1) * 1.33 + 1)


After this, we simply do: E * (F / G) let's name the result X.


This X represents the pure raw power (without abilities!) upgrade 1 has over upgrade 2. If it is ABOVE 1, then we simply say that it's ((X-1)*100)% better. So, if X = 1.5, upgrade 1 is 50% better than upgrade 2 (in raw power -> without abilities). If X = 2, it's 100% (twice) as effective, and so on...

If X is BELOW 1, it means that upgrade 2 is better than 1. We need to do the reciprocal (1/X) and then, with the result, say the same thing as above, only that this time upgrade 1 is inferior in raw power. So, if X = 0.8, 1/X = 1.25 which means that upgrade 2 is 25% better than upgrade 1. If X = 0.5, 1/X = 2 which means upgrade 2 is 100% (twice) as effective than upgrade 1. For an X of 0.25, 1/X = 4, which means upgrade 2 is 300% (four times) better than upgrade 1, and so on... (remember, without abilities)



So let's start with an example so that you'll understand better. I'll start with my favorite town, Dungeon, so the example will be based on Assassin vs Stalker.

Creature Attack Defense Damage HitPoints Speed Initiative
Assassin   4       3     2-4       14      5       12
Stalker    5       4     3-5       15      6       12


Let's calculate our variables:

A: (4 - 5) * 0.05 = -1 * 0.05 = -0.05
B: (3 - 4) * 0.05 = -1 * 0.05 = -0.05
C: 3 / 4 = 0.75
D: 14 / 15 = 0.933

Now we need to recalculate A and B. Since they're negative, we'll use the longer formula. First, we make them positive and then add 1. This leads us to an A and B equal to 1.05. Now we calculate the reciprocal: 1/1.05 = 0.952. So both A and B are equal to 0.952

E = A * B * C * D = 0.952 * 0.952 * 0.75 * 0.933 = 0.634

Since their Initiative is equal, our E becomes X (F / G = 1 in this case)

So, with this X, we can say that the Stalker is 57.5% better than the Assassin in raw power (1/X = 1.575; 1.575-1 = 0.575; 0.575*100 = 57.5)

The result is this:

Assassin Powers: Shooter. No Melee Penalty. Ranged Penalty. Poison.
Stalker Powers: 57.5% better in stats. +1 Speed. Poison. Invisibility.

I'll let you decide who is better. If you really think that the fact that the Assassin can shoot (with only half normal damage) with his Poisonous Attack is better than having 57.5% better stats, the Poisonous Attack (but only in Melee though) AND Invisibility, then go for the Assassins. But IMO I'd go for Stalkers any day.


Let's take an example with Initiative as well, and we have this for the second tier in the same town.

Creature     Attack Defense Damage HitPoints Speed Initiative
Blood Fury     5       3     5-7       16      8       16
Blood Sister   5       4     3-8       21      8       14


We'll not go into all details again (which have been covered in the previous example), so I'll just tell you that E = 0.791

Now it gets interesting, we'll cover initiative. Using the formula, we have:

F = (16 / 10 - 1) * 1.33 + 1 = 1.8
G = (14 / 10 - 1) * 1.33 + 1 = 1.533

X = E * (F / G) = 0.791 * (1.8 / 1.533) = 0.791 * 1.1739 = 0.929

With this X, We can say that the Sister is 7.6% better than the Fury in raw power (1/X = 1.076; 1.076-1 = 0.076; 0.076*100 = 7.6)

The result is this:

Fury Powers: No Enemy Retaliation. Strike and Return.
Sister Powers: 7.6% better in stats. No Enemy Retaliation. Strike and Return. Immune to Weakness.

So apart from creeping I don't see the point of the Fury - the Sister has ALL abilities the Fury has, and even one more (not great, but it's still something) and also 7.6% better stats.


Ok, now that you know how to calculate, enough with the examples, I'll only show you the final X value for all creatures to help you at better understanding some upgrade choices.



DUNGEON

Minotaur Guard vs Minotaur Taskmaster

X = 0.528 Minotaur Taskmaster has 89.3% better stats

It's obvious which one is better, I don't think that Double Attack is that great to compensate for those better stats, not to mention Aura of Bravery is better than Bravery.


Grim Raider vs Brisk Raider

X = 0.899 Brisk Raider has 11.2% better stats

Rider Charge is simply an excellent ability, and I think it's truly much better than having 11.2% extra stats and the Wheeling Attack ability. Still, at least the Brisk Raider has better stats, and that's a step in the right direction


Deep Hydra vs Foul Hydra

X = 0.975 Foul Hydra has 2.4% better stats

So in this case the stats aren't a decision, but the abilities. I think the Acid Blood is far more important than Regeneration (unless we're talking about creeping abuses)


Shadow Matriarch vs Shadow Mistress

X = 0.698 Shadow Mistress has 43% better stats

Having 43% better stats, +1 Speed, a more useful Whip Strike AND Invisibility is far better than being able to shoot IMO, so I'd say Mistresses are better (unless you play Eruina )


Black Dragon vs Red Dragon

X = 0.986 The Red Dragon has 1.3% better stats

Again the stats aren't really different, the choice stands in the abilities.



HAVEN

Conscript vs Brute

X = 1 Identical stats in power

The choice stands between Bash and Assault, I prefer the former.


Marksman vs Crossbowman

X = 0.952 The Crossbowman has 5% better stats (+1 Attack)

Well, No Range Penalty already made him better than the Marksman with his Precise Shot, and on top of that Nival made him have better stats...


Squire vs Vindicator

X = 0.913 The Vindicator has 9.5% better stats

It's pretty much 9.5% better stats + Cleave VS Bash + Shield Allies


Imperial Griffin vs Battle Griffin

X = 1.142 Imperial Griffin has 14.2% better stats

Well, 14.2% better stats + Battle Dive is better than Rush Dive + Battle Frenzy IMO; not to mention that 15 initiative for the Imperials makes the "Dive"-type abilities better than with 10 Initiative (Battle Griffin)


Inquisitor vs Zealot

X = 0.916 Zealot has 9% better stats

Here it depends on the spells you want to use, obviously. Inquisitor has more spells, but less mana (12 vs 15). Also the Zealot has Expert Mastery to his Righteous Might spell (Inquisitor has all of them at Advanced), 9% better stats and the Purge ability. I'd say the Zealot is slightly better, but the Inquisitor is also useful at times (especially when your hero doesn't have Light Magic spells)


Paladin vs Champion

X = 1.09 Paladin has 9% better stats

So it's 9% better stats + Lay Hands + Immune to Frenzy VS Champion Charge. I'd take the Paladin when facing a Dark Magic user, and the Champion when there's no Frenzy/Puppet involved


ArchAngel vs Seraph

X = 1.083 ArchAngel has 8.3% better stats

Depends what you prefer: Divine Vengeance or Resurrect Allies. Of course, there's also important to note that Seraph is affected by Divine Strength much while the ArchAngel isn't affected at all.



INFERNO

Familiar vs Vermin

X = 1.05 Familiar has 5% better stats

It's basically Mana Stealer VS Siphon Mana, since actually the Vermin has +1 Speed as well (while the Familiar 5% better stats)


Horned Overseer vs Horned Grunt

X = 1.1 Horned Overseer has 10% better stats

Although the Overseer has 10% better stats and Explosion, Leap is stronger IMO (especially if you attack creatures who don't have any retaliation left, so that you won't receive triple retaliation damage)


Cerberus vs Firehound

X = 1.19 Cerberus has 19% better stats

Well I would consider Fire Breath a lot better than 19% better stats here


Succubus Mistress vs Succubus Seducer

X = 1.076 Succubus Mistress has 7.6% better stats

Depends if you like Chain Shot over Seduce here...


Nightmare vs Hell Stalion

X = 1.008 Almost identical stats

It's basically Fright Aura VS Searing Aura


Pit Lord vs Pit Spawn

X = 0.536 Pit Spawn has 86.2% better stats

+2 Speed, 86.2% better stats AND Magic Proof 50% are a lot better than Pit Lord's casting abilities IMO (there's also Blade of Slaughter, but Vorpal Sword for the Pit Lord as well)


ArchDevil vs ArchDemon

X = 0.971 ArchDemon has 2.9% better stats

The ArchDevil has +1 more Speed than the ArchDemon and Summon Pit Lords ability. The other has 2.9% extra stats and Teleport Other. Depends on the situation which is better.



NECROPOLIS

Skeleton Archer vs Skeleton Warrior

X = 0.595 Skeleton Warrior has 68% better stats

68% better stats, Large Shield, Shield Allies, Bash, Magic Proof 25%... all of those for the ability to shoot? Come on... I'm still wondering where all those Skeleton Archer fans come from (shooting is not great anyway, because of range penalty)


Plague Zombie vs Rot Zombie

X = 1.065 Plague Zombie has 6.5% better stats

As great as Rot Zombie's Aura sounds, the Plague Zombie is better IMO. Has a little more stats (6.5%) and the Weakening Strike ability is also useful.


Spectre vs Poltergeist

X = 0.989 The Poltergeist has 1% better stats

Here it's between the abilities, but I think Mana Drain is more useful than Ammo Steal.


Vampire Lord vs Vampire Prince

X = 0.875 The Vampire Prince has 14.2% better stats

This is a joke, I mean, Torpor is already better than No Enemy Retaliation IMO. It triggers a lot, and when it does, it causes No Retaliation but also some other effects (the sleep one). Not to mention Torpor also works on Retaliations, the other doesn't. And on top of this the Prince receives +1 Speed and 14.2% better stats


ArchLich vs Lich Master

X = 0.885 The Lich Master has 12.9% better stats

Well I guess the extra stats are because of the lack of Death Cloud ability, so it's a choice of spells here.


Wraith vs Banshee

X = 1.232 The Wraith has 23.2% better stats

If you empower Death Wail with some Morale reducing artifacts, then the Banshee could be better than the Wraith. But overall it's weaker, as you can see from the stats.


Spectral Dragon vs Horror Dragon

X = 1.015 The Spectral Dragon has 1.5% better stats

I think they're both pretty good. Sorrow is a lot better than Weakness, but the Spectral Dragon also has the Death Stare ability.



SYLVAN

Sprite vs Dryad

X = 0.869 The Dryad has 15% better stats

The spells the Sprite casts are not very good, and the Dryad has the Symbiosis ability and 15% higher stats, so I'd say the Dryad is better.


War Dancer vs Wind Dancer

X = 0.662 The Wind Dancer has 50% better stats

This has to be the worst balance I've seen (except Arcane Archer). Agility is already pretty IMBA and a lot stronger than war Dance Combo, and on top of this the Wind Dancer has 50% extra stats (which is A LOT) and +1 Speed!


Master Hunter vs Arcane Archer

X = 0.612 The Arcane Archer has 63% better stats!

As if Force Arrow wasn't strong enough, the Arcane Archer has 63% better stats. I don't think Warding Arrows and the fact that the Master Hunter deals double damage from close range compensates for 63% extra stats, and this is without mentioning the IMBA 50% defense reduction!


Druid Elder vs High Druid

X = 0.976 The High Druid has 2.3% better stats

Another poor balance, as if the High Druid wasn't already a lot better than the other one. The Druid Elder should receive have better stats, not the High Druid...


Silver Unicorn vs Pristine Unicorn

X = 1.058 the Silver Unicorn has 5.8% better stats

Here it depends on what you face and what you'd like. I say both are good.


Ancient Treant vs Savage Treant

X = 0.969 the Savage Treant has 3.1% better stats

It depends if you want a faster treant or an entangling one.


Emerald Dragon vs Crystal Dragon

X = 1.1 The Emerald Dragon has 10% better stats

IMO, the Crystal Dragon is worse: it lacks Immune to Earth and has 10% less stats. Sure, the ability can hit a lot of creatures compared to Acid Breath, but it's unreliable and it may not hit anything as well...



ACADEMY

Master Gremlin vs Gremlin Saboteur

X = 0.74 The Gremlin Saboteur has 34.9% better stats

Well both are useful, Repair is much better than Sabotage but as you can see the other has some better stats


Obsidian Gargoyle vs Elemental Gargoyle

X = 0.882 The Elemental Gargoyle has 13.3% better stats

Of course, both are useful, depends whether you have some powerful Destructive Magic spells or not.


Steel Golem vs Magnetic Golem

X = 0.964 The Magnetic Golem has 3.6% better stats

One has Unlimited Retaliation, 75% Magic Proof and is Immune to Slow, while the other is good at absorbing Destructive Magic spells. Depends on the situation which one is better.


ArchMage vs Battle Mage

X = 0.987 The Battle Mage has 1.2% better stats

The stats aren't a big difference, it's just the spells VS the ability to not hit your own adjacent creatures.


Djinn Sultan vs Djinn Vizier

X = 0.992 The Djinn Vizier has 0.7% better stats

The Vizier is better IMO, it has 75% Magic Proof and is Immune to Air, while the other has only 50% Magic Proof. The spell-casting ability is not that great either, seeing as Djinns are fragile and most often have to attack normally (because they also deal a lot of damage)


Rakshasa Raja vs Rakshasa Kshatra

X = 0.832 The Rakshasa Kshatra has 20% better stats

It's obvious that Kshatra is better. It has +1 Speed, better stats and a better ability. Yes, Whirlwind IS better than No Enemy Retaliation. Think of it like this: once you hit two creatures, you dealt DOUBLE damage. Because the Rakshasa Kshatra is a tier 6, usually it won't receive a retaliation damage higher than what it caused (unless attacking a tier 7, but still even this way the retaliation is AFTER the strike, so it won't deal "full-damage"). So it's already better than No Enemy Retaliation, not to mention that you can hit three or more creatures and that it also works on rakshasa's retaliations as well, unlike the Raja's ability.


The two Titans are identical except their abilities



FORTRESS

Shieldguard vs Mountain Guard

X = 1.053 the Shieldguard has 5.3% better stats

As if Shield Wall wasn't already better than Mountain Guard's abilities, the Shieldguard also has better stats it seems...


Skirmisher vs Harpooner

X = 0.857 The Harpooner has 16.6% better stats

Well I think both are useful. The better stats are for No Melee Penalty, and the Crippling Wound is for Harpoon Strike. However, when you have Soldier's Luck you should consider the Skirmisher more since it improves him, but not the Harpooner.


Blackbear Rider vs Whitebear Rider

X = 1 They have the same overall stats in power

Paw Strike triggers A LOT but Bear Roar can affect multiple enemies and also increases the bear's stats when at least one enemy is frigtened. I'd say they are both useful.


Berserker vs Battlerager

X = 1.024 The Berserker has 2.4% better stats

Basically it's between the abilities here, and they do differ a lot. I prefer to take the Battlerage but the Berserker can also be very effective


Rune Patriarch vs Rune Keeper

X = 0.845 The Rune Keeper has 18.2% better stats

I guess the extra stats are for the Crossfire ability. Still, I wouldn't rank it so high (18%) so I prefer to take the Rune Keepers (they also have two Fireballs which are better than 1 Firewall)


Flamelord vs Thunder Thane

Note that in the calculation I used double damage for the Thunder Thanes, because that's what they deal ALWAYS to the target creature. So you should consider the Storm Strike ability here that it doesn't strike the first creature!

X = 1.001 They're almost identical in raw power

So the choice here is between the abilities (note that in this case the Storm Strike ability does NOT affect the target creature any more, only the adjacent ones)


Magma Dragon vs Lava Dragon

X = 1.157 The Magma Dragon has 15.7% better stats

This is a no-brainer -> The Magma is better. Magma Shield is already way better than Liquid Flame Breath, and on top of this the Magma has better stats...



STRONGHOLD

Goblin Trapper vs Goblin Witchdoctor

X = 1.122 The Goblin Trapper has 12.2% better stats

Although the Trapper has 12% better stats, the Witchdoctor has +1 speed. Also they have completely different abilities, so you may base your choice on those.


Centaur Nomad vs Centaur Marauder

X = 0.92 the Centaur Marauder has 8.6% better stats

Well it's clear that the Marauder is better. It has higher stats and the No Melee Penalty is better than the Maneuver one... Seriously, what where Nival thinking?


Mauler vs Warmonger

X = 0.975 The Warmonger has 2.4% better stats

I think the Warmonger is better, but the Mauler is still pretty strong as well


Sky Daughter vs Earth Daughter

X = 0.797 The Earth Daughter has 25.4% better stats

I guess there's no choice here. The Earth Daughter has 25.4% better stats, +1 Speed, Hexing Attack and Swift Attack... for what? A Chain Lightning spell that you don't even have mana for, without sacrificing goblins?


Executioner vs Chieftain

X = 0.636 The Chieftain has 57% better stats

I guess Cleave might compensate for the lower stats, but I'd say both are useful


Foul Wyvern vs Paokai

X = 0.957 The Paokai has 4.4% better stats

Venom is weak, and Regeneration as well. So I'd choose the Paokai every day (not really a big difference but at least it has Scavenger)


Untamed Cyclops vs Bloodeyed Cyclops

X = 1.048 the Untamed Cyclops has 4.8% better stats

It's basically Evil Eye vs Crushing Blow here.
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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted October 12, 2008 09:21 PM
Edited by OmegaDestroyer at 21:25, 12 Oct 2008.

Quote:
but the Berserker can also be very effective


From someone who's played the Fortress extensively and worked on a guide, the only thing Berserkers are effective at is getting killed.  They are the Lions of the Heroes universe.

As to your other stuff, I haven't really looked at anything but the Fortress and Stronghold which are the two kingdoms I worked on over at the Table a long time ago.  How I see it.

Fortress
1) Shieldguard
2) Skirmishers
3) Blackbear Rider
4) Battle Rager.  Berserker isn't even an option.  
5) Rune Patriarch
6) Thunder Thane
7) Lava Dragon

Stronghold
1) Trapper's in beginning, Witchdoctors towards end game.
2) Mauraders
3) Warlords or whatever they're called.
4) Earth Daughters by far.
5) Chieftains
6) Pao Kai
7) Blood Eyed Cyclops
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adon
adon


Known Hero
posted October 12, 2008 09:40 PM

Nice analysis Ash. I guess what it comes down to is whether or not the lack of stats from one upgrade to the other is made up for with abilities.  A weaker (or non-existant) ability should be compensated with higher stats.

Additionally, lower level creatures could have great discrepancies in stats by your formulas without it meaning as much in absolute terms...2 attack versus 4 attack is big percentage wise in a level 1 unit, but its still only a 2 point difference in absolute terms. The same 2 point difference in the higher tier creatures isn't anything in percentage points when you have 27 defense versus 29, yet its the same amount.  

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 12, 2008 10:04 PM

@Omega: Hmm, you may be right, I haven't played much with Fortress, but I thought the Berserker Rage could score a good first-strike with that high attack - but I guess they die like flies afterward with 0 defense
Oh and I forgot that the Battle Rager has Bash - now it's clearly better

@Adon: I'm not sure what you mean by that? Attack and Defense work with percentages. If a creature with 3 attack fights one with defense 1, it will deal 10% more damage. The same applies for a creature with attack 31 attacking one with 29 defense - still 10% extra damage. So my calculations are pretty fair IMO.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 12, 2008 10:13 PM

A fine example of how numbers can be misleading. Not easy to measure stats along with abilities nor does a mix of numbers always give you an accurate picture. Still not bad


Assassins are generally better but assassins can spread out damage and are pretty good against last stand abusers. Their usefulness is not exactly 57.5% less..

Furies are inferior to sisters, right? Wrong, sometimes you can only hope to do something in your first attack and you may not even get to act with a lesser initiative. I'd say it's a matter of how good damage dealing the enemy faction has.

The brisk raiders are totally out of the picture unless you hope to block an opponent first.. But then there won't be many left to use wheeling attack.

Matriarchs also show weaker but then they can assure that enemy ranged fire will be weakened. The warlock can't always deal with them especially not when charged by 2-3 powerful melee units. Hence a matter of choice still.


Vindicator analysis is also flawed. It assumes that you'll have a good number of them when you usually build them week 3, you can't really deny building cavaliers, castle and MAYBE training grounds. If they required less wood/ore..

Imperial Griffin vs Battle Griffin. Numbers here are irrelevant since each has a different role in the game and no, battle-diving isn't always better.

Paladin vs Champion. It's funny to say 9% better stats when the unit has a weaker version of firebreath When it comes to non dark factions paladins are the weakest link.

Succubus Mistress vs Succubus Seducer is mostly a matter of initiative. Suppose that the enemy has good fast ranged fire, your seduce will be weak or won't be used at all. Sure it can divert some damage to them than the others but..

Pit Lord vs Pit Spawn is totally wrong. You can't dismiss the fact that pitlords can take care of enemy ranged fire as well as counter phoenixes. You could still say there is cold death and summon demons but..

ArchDemon has 2.9% better stats. Lmao one of the worst cases ever. Becomes even more useless with stormwind.

Skeleton Archer vs Skeleton Warrior you already know my views. It's not a matter of stats, you either want a unit to shoot or a unit to protect from ranged damage. After all the warriors can still die after a first good retaliation.

Plague Zombie is not better unless you depend on vampirism tactics.. I'll take more hp over more damage any day, at least where the role of zombies is concerned. Weakening strike's effect in the whole battle is minimal to nonexistent.

Spectre vs Poltergeist. Here is a case where I'd say that stats are more important than abilities. Namely the +1 speed says it all even if at a lesser initiative.

Wraith vs Banshee. Stats-wise you would be right but a banshee's usefulness lies solely on the special. If both were forces to take the melee sure, wraith hands down.

Rakshasa Kshatra is generally better but saying that whirlwind is like no retaliation is stretching it a lot. You may not have faced might armies with defense yet.

Actually it's Whitebear Rider all the way. Most of the time.

Battlerager can't even compare I'm afraid. Who cares about stats if you can stun enemies all the time..

Mamga rules

Centaur Marauder's evaluation is wrong. Sometimes you don't care about he enemy charging your lines in which case you prefer extra ranged damage. Also I will keep mentioning till you get it that no melee penalty is against you vs dark
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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 12, 2008 10:27 PM

Quote:
Paladin vs Champion. It's funny to say 9% better stats when the unit has a weaker version of firebreath
Well I did say that that % value does not consider any abilities. The Paladin indeed has 9% better overall stats and Lay Hands, but the Champion benefits from his very strong ability.
Quote:
Actually it's Whitebear Rider all the way. Most of the time.
But the Blackbear is very useful when you want for certain to "disable" an enemy high level unit since Paw Strike triggers a lot.
Quote:
Also I will keep mentioning till you get it that no melee penalty is against you vs dark
Oh, you're right
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 12, 2008 10:37 PM

Sure but whitebears' fear triggers pretty often too whiout even soldier's luck. Even in small numbers they can cause a mess. Also:
It gives extra bonuses for a while.
It causes the unit to move in random direction that is more or a pain than paw could ever be.
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Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted October 12, 2008 11:10 PM

Woow it looks nice and awsome

I was just thinking about this topic.
It answers my questions which ugrades are balanced and which need a little modding.

Thank you Asheera
Again
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Asheera
Asheera


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Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 12, 2008 11:15 PM
Edited by Asheera at 23:15, 12 Oct 2008.

The formulas at the start are also useful for those that create balance (those that create new NCF creatures or those that simply want to balance this game more). Sure, abilities are evaluated subjectively, but still you can't just put numbers randomly at the stats, so those formulas at least help you a lot
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adon
adon


Known Hero
posted October 13, 2008 07:17 PM

Some stats become more useful with synergy.  A unit with high initiative, speed, and attack would benefit much more from more damage than more defense or hitpoints.  As complex as your formulas are, the actual benefits of stats is probably even more complex (not including the huge subjectivity and relative usefulness of abilities).



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Asheera
Asheera


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Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 07:35 PM

Quote:
A unit with high initiative, speed, and attack would benefit much more from more damage than more defense or hitpoints.
And will die from one hit

Ok jokes aside, I have to agree. Also, some abilities are better suited for some creatures. For example, a No Enemy Retaliation ability is far more inefficient for a tank (high HP unit - like the Hydra) than for a fast, deadly but fragile unit (like the Fury)

But at least the alternatives are not THAT different, so at least these "overall" calculations are not that off the point IMO.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2008 07:38 PM

what about my upgrades?

btw, I also use a formula to check the balance

target HPs / (average damage x (1 + 0.05 x (attacker attack - target defense x (1 - defense reduction))) x initiative /10 x number of attacks)

or

target HPs / (average damage / (1 + 0.05 x (attacker attack - target defense x (1 - defense reduction))) x initiative /10 x number of attacks)

I do that for each creature I want to compare and see if the numbers are close. basically it returns the number of turns (of initiative 10) it takes in average for one creature to kill the other one.

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Asheera
Asheera


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Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 07:41 PM

Hehe, but my formula for Initiative is more complex, and I explained why. Check it out if you want
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Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted October 13, 2008 07:48 PM

Quote:
Plague Zombie vs Rot Zombie

X = 1.065 Plague Zombie has 6.5% better stats

As great as Rot Zombie's Aura sounds, the Plague Zombie is better IMO. Has a little more stats (6.5%) and the Weakening Strike ability is also useful.



Rot zombie is for defense (Its like plagues would get near the enemy before their death).

Quote:
Spectre vs Poltergeist

X = 0.989 The Poltergeist has 1% better stats

Here it's between the abilities, but I think Mana Drain is more useful than Ammo Steal.


Yeeees, but polt's can be usefull for creeping.

Quote:
Vampire Lord vs Vampire Prince

X = 0.875 The Vampire Prince has 14.2% better stats

This is a joke, I mean, Torpor is already better than No Enemy Retaliation IMO. It triggers a lot, and when it does, it causes No Retaliation but also some other effects (the sleep one). Not to mention Torpor also works on Retaliations, the other doesn't. And on top of this the Prince receives +1 Speed and 14.2% better stats



Again, creeping...

Quote:
ArchLich vs Lich Master

X = 0.885 The Lich Master has 12.9% better stats

Well I guess the extra stats are because of the lack of Death Cloud ability, so it's a choice of spells here.


Raise dead is exellent no matter what.Even if low power, this means your hero dosen't have to use his turn on raise dead.

Quote:
Wraith vs Banshee

X = 1.232 The Wraith has 23.2% better stats

If you empower Death Wail with some Morale reducing artifacts, then the Banshee could be better than the Wraith. But overall it's weaker, as you can see from the stats.



Even with Death set, necro ultimate and deirdes special to the fullest, Banshee is lame.Wraith beats banshee in every aspect, anywhere.

Quote:
Spectral Dragon vs Horror Dragon

X = 1.015 The Spectral Dragon has 1.5% better stats

I think they're both pretty good. Sorrow is a lot better than Weakness, but the Spectral Dragon also has the Death Stare ability.


Meh, I would take Spectral for the stats here, but it's pretty much personal choice.

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einomida
einomida


Known Hero
posted October 13, 2008 07:51 PM
Edited by einomida at 19:51, 13 Oct 2008.

A little question - Nightmare vs Hell Stallion? I saw their stats are pretty much equal, but which one do you prefer (for different situations)?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted October 13, 2008 07:54 PM

Hey, that was a cool thing Ash

But! Don't forget that some stats are more important than others (for example the blood fury and sister, they are both highly "killable" so the initiative is the key.. not the other things!)

and don't forget that abilities >>>>> stats

because the difference in stats usually isn't that big, it's often 1-2 att or def points, while the differnce between a bad and a good ability is HUGE.


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Asheera
Asheera


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Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 08:02 PM

@DarkShadow:
Quote:
Rot zombie is for defense (Its like plagues would get near the enemy before their death).
Since I see that everyone thinks the others are better, it could be just me that I had some bad experiences versus Plague Zombies

Yes, you know how annoying they can be with that ability when there are only a few units on the battlefield? (near the end of some battle)
Quote:
Even with Death set, necro ultimate and deirdes special to the fullest, Banshee is lame
With all those things Banshees become killing machines, trust me

But the problem is that you'll never have all those things together

@DoomForge:
Quote:
(for example the blood fury and sister, they are both highly "killable" so the initiative is the key.. not the other things!)
I somewhat agree, but also note that more hit points and more survivability also leads to more damage, in an indirect way (since they stay longer on the battlefield) - and more HP also help the hero in giving him/her more turns as well...

Also, Furies are much more dangerous when Frenzied/Puppeted, since they deal more damage and have higher initiative.
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Fauch
Fauch


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Undefeatable Hero
posted October 13, 2008 08:16 PM
Edited by Fauch at 20:17, 13 Oct 2008.

Quote:
Hehe, but my formula for Initiative is more complex, and I explained why. Check it out if you want


yes, but offensive creatures with high initiative usually inflict less damage per attack than offensive creatures with average or low initiative (yes the rakshasas look offensive to me) (well, it's not something that obvious, but it's for balance purpose)
and as a consequence they receive stronger retaliations.

for example the phoenix inflicts the most damage in a turn since it attacks twice but it will receive 2 retaliations (or 1 if it attacks a slow creature twice)

the black dragon will inflict less damage, since it attacks only once per turn, but it has the strongest attack in the whole game, so the retaliation will be weaker than for the phoenix.

also note that the black dragon retaliation is also stronger than the phoenix one.

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Asheera
Asheera


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
posted October 13, 2008 08:20 PM

So are you suggesting that Morale is weaker than Luck?

IMO the fact that you act faster is much more important than just dealing more damage - that's why Morale gives only a 50% increase to ATB (average 50% extra damage - but in fact act faster which is better) and not 100% like Luck.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted October 13, 2008 08:22 PM

Depends really. It's like comparing damage to say initiative.
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