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| Thread: Health Care in the Western World |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 01:51 PM |
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Health Care in the Western World
On topic now.
To pick up some key elements of the off-topic discussion.
Health is a business like every other. The aim of it is to make as much money as possible. The aim is NOT to cure or heal people. The same as the aim of an insurance is not to compensate people for suffered damage. Healing or curing
Therefore it suffers under the same problems: over-treatment, waste of money for unnecessary things, redundant developments. It furthermore suffers from the unholy alliance between an industry (the pharma corps) and the profession (the docs) who try to create the impression that everything that inhibits the state of well-feeling should be treated and can be cured in order to maximize their profits.
I'm not going to repeat the whole points from the Presidential thread. If someone has a point to make, they may simple make it again.
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del_diablo
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posted November 05, 2008 01:58 PM |
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Before anything else is said: define "Western World".
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TheDeath
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posted November 05, 2008 01:59 PM |
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Purely capitalistic system, I think.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 02:20 PM |
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Europe, the US, Kanada, mostly. Israel, I suppose.
Capitalist countries with a high income per person NOT influenced heavily by other than Western medical culture. Japan doesn't count, since it's heavily Chinese influenced, medically.
As it happens the Japanese are the longest living people as well...
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DagothGares
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posted November 05, 2008 02:22 PM |
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What? Doctors earn money by curing us... what is all this paranoia? Oath of Hippocrates and stuff 
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 02:35 PM |
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Yeah, right. And politicians earn money by serving the people who elected them. What's all that paranoia about them... Oath of office on the Bible and all.
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TheDeath
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posted November 05, 2008 02:47 PM |
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You forgot the judges to serve "justice" 
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Minion
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posted November 05, 2008 02:53 PM |
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@JJ.
Most of Europe has greatly different healthcare systems than USA. The United States is alone among developed nations with the absence of a universal health care system.
For example where I live, all Finnish citizens are entitled to state healthcare, irrespective of their financial situation.
So your Western World is invorrect here, unless you make US represent the entire Western World.
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TheDeath
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posted November 05, 2008 02:56 PM |
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JJ is in Germany
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del_diablo
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posted November 05, 2008 03:01 PM |
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If the general health-care is public, its all about curing the patients.
If the general health-care is private things may not work this way, depending on the mod to earn money. Just look at the will to sell services in countrys like the US, and what about "allmost-cured"-type of action? If somebody is almost cured they will feel healthy, but the question IS "when is the backfiring coming?", if it comes.
So i can agree on the earning money thing in a private dominated country.
Unless there is a Big FLOW OF COSTUMERS, meaning cure and get on with it will be the more effective way to earn money due capacity.
And what is the bullsnow about Japan not a part of the non-existing western world? The fact they got working doctors and a different culture does not chance the fact its a capitalist country.
PS: Western world existed before the colonisation of America, it was Europa. Because everywhere else the white man get whoever opposed him to slavery or death.
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Asheera
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posted November 05, 2008 03:04 PM |
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Quote:
What? Doctors earn money by curing us... what is all this paranoia? Oath of Hippocrates and stuff
But greedy doctors will probably like to treat you for as long as possible to get more money out of you, instead of cure you fast.
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DagothGares
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posted November 05, 2008 03:10 PM |
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Quote:
Health is a business like every other. The aim of it is to make as much money as possible. The aim is NOT to cure or heal people.
Ok... I can see that. So basically, what you're saying is what? People make us sick? That we would figure out, methinks (since secrecy isn't like one of the world's strong points). I agree that doctors are quick to prescribe medicine if that's what you mean.
If you're going to state that noone wants to cure cancer or AIDS, you're wrong. Everyone wants to do that and everyone can win by it. Because the one who finds those cures will go down in the history books, noble prize, money and so much more. I think that the individual gain by t far exceeds corporate stuff...
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The same as the aim of an insurance is not to compensate people for suffered damage.
Oww, so it doesn't do what it does. I get ya
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Healing or curing. Therefore it suffers under the same problems: over-treatment, waste of money for unnecessary things, redundant developments.
well, same is with all things, but if people can improve medicine in some way, why not do it? (as a response to redundant development) and, yes, over-treatment, but doctors benefit if we're as healthy as possible, making it more of overconcerned... 
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It furthermore suffers from the unholy alliance between an industry (the pharma corps) and the profession (the docs) who try to create the impression that everything that inhibits the state of well-feeling should be treated and can be cured in order to maximize their profits.
Corporations are evil apparently. Okay, I can dig that. I can only see one thing that's wrong with that. I suppose that when we get a medicine for everything, we weaken our immune system and we become even more susceptible to diseases and we get to the only thing that's wrong with western medicine: namely, our children (or a generation further) will get sick of everything and things like bird flu (which we might've been immune to a couple of decades ago) will increase in number. More viruses will come and more people might die. I agree, but that's more of a private issue (people take all medicine they want without thinking) than a corporate syndicate/ evil... thing...
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 03:14 PM |
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You misunderstand the problem I want to point to.
While what you stated is correct, that the US stand out as a nation with no general public health insurance, it's not that fact that's to debate.
Whether you have a public health insurance system or not, that doesn't change the fact that all those working in and for the health system are trying to a) make money and b) make more money than last year.
Moreover, a public health insurance system does basically just mean that there is a basic public health insurance: it doesn't say what is covered, who has to pay what and who gets what from those who work for or in the system.
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DagothGares
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posted November 05, 2008 03:22 PM |
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Quote:
Moreover, a public health insurance system does basically just mean that there is a basic public health insurance: it doesn't say what is covered, who has to pay what and who gets what from those who work for or in the system.
I don't know what you mean by that, but in Belgium, the government covers a big percentage (around 80% most of the time) of your health costs. And I'm aware that the tax payer pays for this in the end, but it's still nice.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 03:22 PM |
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Quote:
If the general health-care is public, its all about curing the patients.
No, it's still about making money.
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And what is the bullsnow about Japan not a part of the non-existing western world? The fact they got working doctors and a different culture does not chance the fact its a capitalist country.
PS: Western world existed before the colonisation of America, it was Europa. Because everywhere else the white man get whoever opposed him to slavery or death.
Their medicine has been and is still extremely influenced by the Chinese, so that's why Japan is different.
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del_diablo
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posted November 05, 2008 03:23 PM |
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Quote:
Moreover, a public health insurance system does basically just mean that there is a basic public health insurance: it doesn't say what is covered, who has to pay what and who gets what from those who work for or in the system.
The question here is: "Does the goverment own the hospitals?" If they do, i guess it becomes alot harder to defend.
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Their medicine has been and is still extremely influenced by the Chinese, so that's why Japan is different.
And what is it about "People republic of China" then?
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 03:25 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Moreover, a public health insurance system does basically just mean that there is a basic public health insurance: it doesn't say what is covered, who has to pay what and who gets what from those who work for or in the system.
I don't know what you mean by that, but in Belgium, the government covers a big percentage (around 80% most of the time) of your health costs. And I'm aware that the tax payer pays for this in the end, but it's still nice.
Right, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a lot of money to earn in the health department - on the contrary.
What I try to say is that HEALTH is a BUSINESS like every other business: Everyone involved tries to raise their profits. With certain consequences.
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TheDeath
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posted November 05, 2008 03:30 PM |
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And like in every business, only the "strong" (those who seek profit) survive. 
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Minion
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posted November 05, 2008 03:43 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 15:48, 05 Nov 2008.
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Ok, point taken. But I still don't think that it is a business like any other business. Simply because health care (in Finland) is primarily funded from tax revenue. The money is there already. I still may not understand, but I have never thought of healhcare (in Finland) as a business because it is not entirely capitalistic. I am not sure to what exted it even is. It has no real competition (ok, the private sector IS rising, and that certainly IS a business) But generally, not a business as one usully sees it.
The drug companies CERTAINLY try to get their drug sold more. Drug companies are businesses. But here the doctors can't prescribe a drug from any particular company... the pharmacist is forced by the law to offer the patient, when he comes to pick up the drug, the cheapest alternative of the same drug.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 05, 2008 06:23 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Their medicine has been and is still extremely influenced by the Chinese, so that's why Japan is different.
And what is it about "People republic of China" then?
Traditional Chinese medicine is very different from Western medicine. Contemporary Chinese medicine tries to combine both by taking those things from Western medicine that work for them.
This article will give a very thorough survey, if you are interested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine
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I still don't think that it is a business like any other business. Simply because health care (in Finland) is primarily funded from tax revenue. The money is there already. I still may not understand, but I have never thought of healhcare (in Finland) as a business because it is not entirely capitalistic. I am not sure to what exted it even is. It has no real competition (ok, the private sector IS rising, and that certainly IS a business) But generally, not a business as one usully sees it.
I found this interesting passage about the Finnish healt care system in the wiki article:
"Finland's health care services are more highly socialized than the European average. The quality of service in Finnish health care is considered to be good and according to a survey published by the European Commission in 2000, Finland has the highest number of people satisfied with their hospital care system in the EU: 88% of Finnish respondents were satisfied compared with the EU average of 41.3%.[2] Finnish health care expenditures are below the European average.
The main point here is the following: people seem to think that everyone in the health business is just REACTING on what you might call "the natural market". People get sick or injured, go to a doc get themselves a cured or repaired and that's it. But that's NOT it.
"Health" is much more than that. "Health" means for example prevention: a campaign for condoms to keep AIDS in check; mass vaccinations in school; mandatory newborn and baby checks; teaching the correct way to brush your teeth in kindergardens and schools; lectures in corporate offices about the right seating positions. All this things have to be researched before they can be put into action. And that's just to PREVENT sicknesses.
Christ, this is so much I can scratch only the surface.
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