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| Thread: What is thy religion, and what doth hast know about God? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 12:25 AM |
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An omniscient and omnipotent creator would probably be a bit above our human perception of "let's try it and if it doesn't work, we'll delete it, fix some bugs and try again" programming, don't you think?  Surely God would be able to create the desired effect in one try... If he created us, he created us as his children, not an experiment. Someone omnipotent and omniscient wouldn't need to create experiments. He, however, would want to spread the essence of being and life, to weave creation, and, as a pinnacle of his work, to create others who would create too. Because a true creator would find himself constantly filling the never-ending, pointless emptiness with existence, energy, matter, life and purpose, and it is certainly wonderful to know that there are other beings who create and weave in their own right, his children in a cycle of harmony and life.\
See, the thing is that the classic interpretation of omnipotence and omniscience are both mutually exclusive and internally paradoxical.
The version I explained uses relative omnipotence and omniscience instead. God has power over our world. God can achieve any effect he wants within our world. God has direct access to all information pertaining our world.
Of course, all this relates to the belief that if there is a God the Creator, he exists in a different world over which he doesn't have the same kind of power. In fact, to God the Creator, we are no more real than Mario is to us.
Naturally, this could go both ways indefinitely. This also leads to possibilities of worlds simultaneously creating eachother or one world being simultaneously created by several others.
Because in the multiverse, time does not exist.
This in turn suggests that time travel can be achieved if we find a way to leave and reenter our universe.
All this coming from an attempt to create a logically sound God.
EDIT: If this theory has already been covered by some philosopher from n-hundred years before, I'd apreciate a handy wikipedia link or something to that effect.
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baklava
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posted November 29, 2008 12:42 AM |
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Why would God need to have a physical existence in a world on the same level as ours? If he was confined to a single world, how could he create other worlds? And how would he, then, differ from a really good human programmer? No, I think you're oversimplifying it now. You're trying to enclose it into boundaries of our current comprehension. Which I'm pretty sure is impossible at this stage.
But, like you said, it could go both ways. Perhaps, one day, we will create worlds of our own. Perhaps we already did. Perhaps gods have their own gods too. Perhaps it all dates back to the first creator, who made the first world, or worlds, where someone reached perfection... That might even be a good setting for a fantasy or SF novel.
But we're straying off the subject now.
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted November 29, 2008 12:48 AM |
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Why do I have a feeling this is just going to turn into another theists vs. atheists thread?
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 01:05 AM |
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Why would God need to have a physical existence in a world on the same level as ours? If he was confined to a single world, how could he create other worlds? And how would he, then, differ from a really good human programmer? No, I think you're oversimplifying it now. You're trying to enclose it into boundaries of our current comprehension. Which I'm pretty sure is impossible at this stage.
It's not about God "needing to have a physical existence in a world parallel to ours". At least not any more than us needing one. The whole point is that the nature of godhood does not much differ from "being a really good human programmer", as you put it.
I'm not trying to pretend that this is the same God that Judeochristians believe in. I'm merely pointing out that such a God is logically impossible and proposing a sound alternative. I say that our world's laws of physics lose relevance beyond its boundaries - you suggest that so does logic. I'm assuming that logic is the same in every part of the Multiverse.
Or, in other words:
You say I'm forcing a square piece into a round hole. I say there is no round piece in the set, so I'm making one.
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Why do I have a feeling this is just going to turn into another theists vs. atheists thread?
Actually, so far it's developing into assorted theist concepts vs assorted deist concepts 
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Yolk and God bless.
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Celfious
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posted November 29, 2008 01:07 AM |
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I am surprised no one flat out said Christian.
How odd!!1!1
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OmegaDestroyer
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posted November 29, 2008 04:01 AM |
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What's the point?
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The giant has awakened
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winterfate
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posted November 29, 2008 04:08 AM |
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@del_diablo: 
Um...nah!
It's still a religion. 
But, I wouldn't dare say God doesn't exist, because I know (in my heart) that there has to be something else besides this existence we have. As for Karma, well, just take a good look at people around and you'll see that it is a factor.
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Why do I have a feeling this is just going to turn into another theists vs. atheists thread?
Sith happens...
Seriously though, we'll see what happens. Let's hope not.
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baklava
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posted November 29, 2008 12:48 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 12:49, 29 Nov 2008.
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Logic is directly based on our perception of reality. It's logical to assume that it's not healthy to eat fire. Why? Cause our laws of physics say that it will burn you. Similarly, logic can differ infinitely between realities, just like everything else can. Or at least that seems like a logical point of view 
But that's the matter of belief
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 01:51 PM |
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Logic is directly based on our perception of reality. It's logical to assume that it's not healthy to eat fire. Why? Cause our laws of physics say that it will burn you. Similarly, logic can differ infinitely between realities, just like everything else can. Or at least that seems like a logical point of view
But that's the matter of belief
You're confusing logic with common sense. Common sense says "don't eat fire because it will hurt you" based on hundreds of generations of ancestral experience. The actual laws of logic are independent from physics or experience. You can use logic to determine that given the following information:
- Fire is hot
- Hot things hurt you
- Pain is a sign of danger
...you should not eat fire. Now, if you alter the reality by stating that fire is not in fact hot and do not replace it with anything else, you have no logical reason to not eat fire. You get a different conclusion, but the logic is no different!
By stating that a different world may have different logic, you claim that the phrase "A or B" may be true even if both A and B are false.
Logic is the law of reason. I dare suggest that even in a world physically different from ours in every possible way, reasoning works on the same basic principles.
But assuming for a moment that the above statement may not necessarily be true, omnipotence is logically self-refuting in our world, and therefore nothing can be omnipotent in our world and as such a God cannot practice omnipotence on our world, from outside OR within.
Also, by your "reasoning", Zeno's paradoxes (like Achilles and the Turtle) are illogical. The truth is that they are plenty logical, but merely incompatible with reality.
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TheDeath
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posted November 29, 2008 02:01 PM |
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You can use logic to determine that given the following information:
- Fire is hot
- Hot things hurt you
- Pain is a sign of danger
...you should not eat fire.
That's rationality, not logic
Yes, before you ask, it is very different. You can even read on wiki if you want.
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Logic is the law of reason. I dare suggest that even in a world physically different from ours in every possible way, reasoning works on the same basic principles.
??? Why???
After all, that only applies if it's made of the same building blocks, only in more quantity. But what if it's made of different building blocks, with greater quality?
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Also, by your "reasoning", Zeno's paradoxes (like Achilles and the Turtle) are illogical. The truth is that they are plenty logical, but merely incompatible with reality.
Depending on how you think about the reality, they may be both irrational or rational (not illogical/logical). Rationality is subjective btw
But there COULD be what you said with the "God is a programmer" -- since even if He were to do experiments, we would still not know anything -- if he can do anything, even if he makes a mistake, he'll also "change the time" back so to speak, or erase our memories (with the mistake) and thus we'll never know it was any mistake, we'll never know it happened differently. What if He modifies your whole brain while you're asleep? You won't even remember what happened to you before, and if everyone gets modified in such a way, it is like a complete different life
Just random question: What if we are in a simulation with our own will? We keep claiming that it's not 'fair' in this world with poverty and cancer and all that but what if it was like this:
"Hey God, you know, I got bored of so many happy experiences, now I want you to put me in as a beggar who has cancer!"
"Ok, ready?"
"Yeah, send me in"
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baklava
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posted November 29, 2008 02:10 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:10, 29 Nov 2008.
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@Woock
Logic is the science of common sense.
However, other worlds would not simply be identical as ours just with, I don't know, fire not being hot, or everything being purple instead of yellow. I'm fully aware that logic can be applied anywhere in our universe. But logic was created to help us find our way through OUR world. I highly doubt that, if other worlds exist the way you're saying (actually I'm not quite sure how you perceive those other worlds anyway), they would all be doomed to function on the same level of rationality as ours does. Some kind of logic would exist, perhaps, but far different than our own. Logic is not all about A and B, therefore C. That's the thing, we were created for our world, not for others. We cannot comprehend other worlds. If there are other worlds the way you describe them.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 02:19 PM |
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??? Why???
After all, that only applies if it's made of the same building blocks, only in more quantity. But what if it's made of different building blocks, with greater quality?
Elaborate please. I'd love to learn what you mean here.
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But there COULD be what you said with the "God is a programmer" -- since even if He were to do experiments, we would still not know anything -- if he can do anything, even if he makes a mistake, he'll also "change the time" back so to speak, or erase our memories (with the mistake) and thus we'll never know it was any mistake, we'll never know it happened differently. What if He modifies your whole brain while you're asleep? You won't even remember what happened to you before, and if everyone gets modified in such a way, it is like a complete different life
I'm glad you decided to explore the possibility instead of saying "NO", but that's basically reintroducing the possibility of God manipulate the world while it is "running" - the lack of which is the very reason why I offered the concept of God the Programmer (for lack of a better term).
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@Woock
Logic is the science of common sense.
Wait, what?
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However, other worlds would not simply be identical as ours just with, I don't know, fire not being hot, or everything being purple instead of yellow.
Depending on the world, the differences could be that small or as large as being entirely one-dimensional and non-chronological, or completely devoid of space. I don't know, I can't really give you a list of all possibilities. Quote:
I'm fully aware that logic can be applied anywhere in our universe. But logic was created to help us find our way through OUR world. I highly doubt that, if other worlds exist the way you're saying (actually I'm not quite sure how you perceive those other worlds anyway), they would all be doomed to function on the same level of rationality as ours does. Some kind of logic would exist, perhaps, but far different than our own. Logic is not all about A and B, therefore C. That's the thing, we were created for our world, not for others. We cannot comprehend other worlds. If there are other worlds the way you describe them.
If logic is not about alternatives, conjunctions, implications and negations, then what is it about?
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TheDeath
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posted November 29, 2008 02:31 PM |
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Elaborate please. I'd love to learn what you mean here.
Hmm, let's take a simple virtual world that actually exists made of polygons (i.e a game). As you know, the building blocks of that world are not atoms, or electromagnetic forces, or in fact any "forces" at all -- in fact, it's not even the "dark matter" or any spiritual thing either... just some numbers and polygons (which are defined by more numbers, aka vertices positions and IDs, etc etc). Then, if a "higher" world (the polygon one is pretty limited compared to ours, so a "higher" world would be the same in comparison to ours, which would be considered "limited" in this context) has different building blocks (as we have seen, simulations have different building blocks) then we can expect it to be different -- and since it is "higher", then it means those things have much less 'limits' than ours, which means it has better 'quality' per "building block" since it can have more possibilities (less limits).
Take the human brain -- it is formed of neurons, a lot of them, etc... this is mostly quantity, compared to 1 neuron, both have the same quality, but different quantities. However, if there would be a world which has such building blocks of higher 'quality' (see above for definition) then it could be completely different even if the quantity is the same or even less! Completely different as in "more enlightened" -- just like we can understand both the virtual simulations of our games (with polygons) AND a world which is ABOVE/HIGHER than that (and which a polygon-world could NEVER comprehend), since we know about atoms etc...
therefore a being that lives in a "higher" world can understand our world perfectly, and can understand even MORE things -- so if anything, His/Her logic could be far greater than what we can understand -- like a being in a polygon world can hardly understand anything, we can understand more, and a "higher" being can understand even more.
This is what I meant with "more quality" building blocks.
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I'm glad you decided to explore the possibility instead of saying "NO", but that's basically reintroducing the possibility of God manipulate the world while it is "running" - the lack of which is the very reason why I offered the concept of God the Programmer (for lack of a better term).
The thing is that even if he does manipulate the world while it is "running" we may never know because that's what he does, he changes everything as if it never happened, including our memories so we have no idea what-so-ever.
Consider our brains being put on a "backup disk" so to speak. Consider then that a nuke would have destroyed the whole world. Then God decides to modify the world and get rid of this 'happening', and puts our memories from the "backup disk" -- even though we died by the nuke, this backup disk has absolutely nothing about that and thus we'll be there as if it never happened -- as if no modification ever happened and as if no nuke was ever dropped!
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baklava
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posted November 29, 2008 02:48 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 14:51, 29 Nov 2008.
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Wait, what?
What "wait, what?"?
I do apologize for not using the Wikipedia definition, but you can understand logic as being, in some aspects, pretty similar to common sense. Common sense is the ability to find a rational way through a situation. Or at least that's how I've always understood it.
Common sense, for example, says that "if A=B and B=C, then A=C", doesn't it? Logic says the same.
Maybe we understand the phrase "common sense" differently.
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Depending on the world, the differences could be that small or as large as being entirely one-dimensional and non-chronological, or completely devoid of space. I don't know, I can't really give you a list of all possibilities.
And how can you use our logic in a world containing 5 dimensions, for example? Since we're not even sure about the fourth dimension.
See, the entire point is in our inability to list all possibilities.
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If logic is not about alternatives, conjunctions, implications and negations, then what is it about?
Implications and negations are tools. Logic is about discovering whether thoughts - any thoughts - are correct or not. It uses the tools you've mentioned, but that's far from all there is to it.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 03:14 PM |
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@TheDeath: I fail to understand how the building blocks of a world determine the actual basic laws of logic.
Take for example the statement: Object A exists and Object B exists = Objects A and B exist.
Describe a world where this statement is false. Regardless of whether the world is constructed of atoms, polygons or the letter psi, I see no possibility of it being false.
@Baklava: Which part of "our" logic does not apply to a five-dimensional world?
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baklava
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posted November 29, 2008 03:24 PM |
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The part where the fifth dimension can influence almost anything. The fifth dimension can be logic, as far as we know or don't know.
Try to understand a chestnut tree from the perspective of a two-dimensional rectangle.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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TheDeath
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posted November 29, 2008 03:34 PM |
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Take for example the statement: Object A exists and Object B exists = Objects A and B exist.
Aren't you actually using your building blocks (whether it is brain alone, neurons, or brain + mind + soul, or whatever) to get such logic in the first place?
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Describe a world where this statement is false. Regardless of whether the world is constructed of atoms, polygons or the letter psi, I see no possibility of it being false.
What if it is constructed of something else (higher) than us? Sure, the polygons will always have at least some stuff like ours because we designed it, but it's more limited than ours. So ours must be more limited than a "higher" world (with higher building blocks).
Is it logical for you for something to exist at two points in space at the same time?
well it actually is happening in quantum mechanics -- image that in a "higher" world! 
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 05:24 PM |
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Woock says: Which part of "our" logic does not apply to a five-dimensional world?
Baklava says: The part where the fifth dimension can influence almost anything.
I don't know, I may be getting daft, but I just don't see how this answers the question. What I see here is:
Woock: Which of these keys fit in this lock?
Baklava: The one that fits the lock.
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Aren't you actually using your building blocks (whether it is brain alone, neurons, or brain + mind + soul, or whatever) to get such logic in the first place?
What else would you like me to use? I don't see the relevance.
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Describe a world where this statement is false. Regardless of whether the world is constructed of atoms, polygons or the letter psi, I see no possibility of it being false.
What if it is constructed of something else (higher) than us? Sure, the polygons will always have at least some stuff like ours because we designed it, but it's more limited than ours. So ours must be more limited than a "higher" world (with higher building blocks).
Again, my brain may be deteriorating, but I don't see a description of a reality where our world' tautologies cease to be logical truths.
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Is it logical for you for something to exist at two points in space at the same time?
Technically speaking, a point is infinitely small, while a physical object (like my right hand, lego brick or a chess piece) is not and therefore exists in many points in space at once. Assuming, however, that you mean the possibility of the same physical object being, for example, both in my pocket and in your fridge at the same time (without putting the pocket in the fridge or vice versa; also assuming that it is contained in its entirety in either container and doesn't extend all the way from one to the other like a big lot of string), then it is entirely logical as long as the world's physics do not contradict it.
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Doomforge
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posted November 29, 2008 05:27 PM |
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Why do I have a feeling this is just going to turn into another theists vs. atheists thread?
It always does
Celf: I said Christian
Woock: The controversy of omniscient and omnipotent is that we question our logic, not the omniscience itself (because our logic fails not only to that, but also stupid word games like "a man said every guy in his town lies, did he lie or tell the truth"), I wrote about it a couple times
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Lord_Woock
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posted November 29, 2008 05:41 PM |
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But why should we discard logic and not omniscience/omnipotence? By discarding omnipotence and omniscience, you lose one of many theories of the world's origin. By discarding logic, you lose the ability to determine whether a statement is true or false, and as such you lose the ability to reason. Killing your own ability to reason, how can you be sure if you really should have discarded anything at all?
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Yolk and God bless.
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