Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
New Server | HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info forum | HOMM4: info forum | HOMM5: info forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Heroes IV: Battle Effects
Thread: Heroes IV: Battle Effects This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 13, 2001 08:02 AM bonus applied.

Heroes IV: Battle Effects



OK. We have discussed the minute details of every topic about Heroes IV, almost. There have been ideas contributed by a number of members, a test of finding out everything about HoMMIV has also been administered.
Of course, knowing about all these things is good, but does it really help us that much when you think about?
It may help us with the small details, but what you really need to look at, is not just a certain topic, but what does it do when put together with another aspect of the game?
The secondary skills would be no use without the heroes, so you need to fit things together, and how well they occur in a certain manner.
What I’m saying is, taking all things into account will give you the best idea of what will actually happen in the game, and what that certain aspect of the game will turn out to be.
This discussion is about creatures and heroes, and how the new changes with all the items that affect heroes and creatures have changed or strengthened your opinion in battle situations.

One of the major changes is Heroes in Combat:
As we all know, heroes have taken a step forward from the curious onlookers on the sidelines, to complete physical and magic warriors.
This means fighting alongside creatures, which have stronger or weaker abilities than them.
Heroes in combat has made the battle sequences more strategic and exciting by increasing artifact and spell usage and also by having more adversaries or allies on the battlefield at the same time.
But we can’t look solely on the heroes ability to find with creatures, we also must look on how it effects the creatures, which now have to content with seemingly superior beings on the battlefield using artifacts as weapons.
Although certain creatures may now cast spells, will they do it with the same proficiency as the heroes, and if not, heroes may prove to be more and more powerful as they win battles and their level increases.
Maybe a Barbarian at level 60 with over 3000 hit points could wipe out all the creatures, and leave the hero to fight with the opposing hero in the endgame. My theory is that when heroes start out, they are vulnerable, and that is when they need to be defeated, because when they gain levels they could beat almost anybody, and losing a hero would be a disaster. While in Heroes III, you lose a hero, ah; we’ll just recruit another one tomorrow.
But in Heroes IV, everything adds up, and that’s why other things than the heroes are important, take into account other aspects.

With the new system, spells have become increasingly important:
Spells will be useful on the adventure map, and in the battlefield, but with wider areas of influence. Now that heroes and creatures cast spells, it would make it increasingly interesting for the player.
Not much has changed for heroes casting spells except for the manner they cast them in: Sacrifice attacking physically, and cast a spell, or sacrifice casting a spell and react with physical force. This way of battling will make the two main types of heroes; might and magic practically equal in power, ignoring what type is most needed at the time.
Previously in Heroes III, creatures were only able to cast spells rarely, and when they did, they appeared to be weak spells and most of them appeared to do little to help the combat. Times have changed. It now appears that creatures may cast any spell, but not necessarily with the same proficiency as in Heroes III.
There seems to be so many things that are liable of being completed in one turn, you have to think hard what that move is going to be.
Taking into account these tow changes, combat may take on a more thoughtful touch than it once was not.
The new spell system also induces some changes to the availability of the spells cast.
They are now divided by the way of castle origin, such as Chaos = Asylum, and not the basic ground type like Fire or Water, which had little to do with the castles or creatures at all. This will mean no elemental casting spells and rules out their appearance in the game or the expansion, unless they have a special bonding with a certain order, or they change the appearance and names.
So know with all types of beings having the capabilities of casting spells, it could really become a huge war of attrition.

Artifacts are the unknown force in the battlefield, what will they do?
Much is still to be found out about artifacts. Some facts suggest that they have similar meanings to spells, some suggest quite the opposite. But the truth is that artifacts will now become more complex and useful than they once were in Heroes 1,2 and 3.
Once again, heroes now have more uses for them, not just to boost creatures statistics, but their own when they bolster the armies attack or defence during a battle.
But we still have little idea of how an artifact will actually function in battle. The hero may have to choose a single artifact to enter battle with, which seems to be the most likely choice because of its realism, or the hero brings a pack of artifacts, and uses a different one each turn to his or her own decision.
There are also different classes of artifacts, which may not be accessible to some certain heroes such as a shaman or sorcerer. Or once again a barbarian may not have the knowledge or same proficiency as a sorcerer when reading a scroll, which could make the barbarians attempted attack slightly underhanded.
These artifacts, also intertwined with spells could make a very sticky situation, and many unexpected things may occur. But this also means more skills and tricks to learn, and different level status’ to acquire in time. In previous Heroes’ there were only a certain number of options available in battle. Some people liked to play conservative and defend or skip a turn in fear of retaliation. I feel that that could be a thing of the past, with the introduction of Heroes in combat, and different uses. There almost certainly would be something more creative to do with that particular creature or HEROS turn.

The aim of this thread is to answer: All of the new knowledge of the information, facts, and introductions of spells and artifacts which are more involved in battle, basically all the knowledge you gained by reading, have been displayed to ask you this:
Taking these facts into account, which have been provided through this thread and interviews, has this changed your opinion and approach on battle strategies and possibilities?
I think there have been the most changes undertaken in this version of Heroes than any other in the past.
It certainly proves to become a very promising game. It could well be worth the wait.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 13, 2001 08:58 PM

From what I have read and seen so far, anyone who does not drastically change their battle tactics is going to find themselves in great trouble.  Some things, like ganging up on stacks, may still work as I think most creatures will still have only 1 retailiation.  Of course, retailiation will be from the original size of the stack.  Also, missile units will be able to retaliate when fired on by other missile units.

It does seem that artifacts are the least known about portion of the game, hope there is more info soon on them as I am very curious.  I think spellcasting units will have 5 spells to choose from, and always the same for that unit.

Well, that is my take, anyone else?
____________
If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jenova
Jenova


Famous Hero
posted December 14, 2001 05:14 AM

About the missile units retaliating when shot by other missile units.. If the one that is retaliating has an adjacent enemy stack next to it, will it still be able to shoot you back? Will it be able to retaliate at all?
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted December 14, 2001 06:00 AM

Great question...

I've been thinking about that myself... or related, if some archers will be non-retaliatory specials.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 14, 2001 07:17 AM

Thanks for the responses!

OK, good to see some members have opinions on this issue!
Here are my thoughts...

Tristan:
I agree with you, i was lining up the information to see how you would have to change your battle strategy from Heroes III if that is what you mean.
There are so many changes, you might be a master at HoMMIII, but might struggle with some parts in battle of HoMMIV. Its a game of changes, and most for the better i feel!
I have discovered that Hydras will again have no retaliation in HoMMIV, and will also attack adjacent units and multiple times.
Hmm, that is what Wyvern was discussing in my Interpretations thread. Missile troops shoot at other missile troops.
It could prove to be similar to HoMMIII, but with secondary skills effecting the outcome of it.
Yes, artifacts and potions are the most unknown part of the game, and both have a large part to play in battle situations, which could make things even trickier than i explained in my initial post!

Jenova:
Yes, that is quite a good question, and to be honest, i don't think many people know the answer to it!
My guess is that it probably will, since the attack has nothing to do with the creature next to it, since the shooter on the other side fired the shot, and not the attacker next to him.

Ichon:
Yeah, i think they could have, since a new secondary skill is archery so it looks pretty feasible to me.
This is quite an interesting topic! Great thoughts!

How about if archery also effected the efficiency of their shots??!!
That would be a change!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Nernug
Nernug


Adventuring Hero
posted December 14, 2001 07:54 AM

Heroes4 retaliation

With the new retaliate system, which I think is the biggest change to the game, canon-folder troops will be more important in early as in late games. In most cases it will be stupid not to fill up the empty creature slots with canon-folder. Because the retaliation is now stronger it's very important that every creature get a shot at the enemy when the retaliation is gone. So in an army with few range attackers it might be better to have a fast canon folder troop than a slow but powerful grunt. Also think about the bigger battlefield...

If your ranged troop attacks another ranged troop you might want to place some canon folder infront of your ranged troop as the retaliation will hit it.  


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted December 14, 2001 08:02 AM bonus applied.

Strategy:  The completely new battle rules and abilities will cause to the even forces (at the beginning) of all the HoMM 4 players. Even the most mastered HOMM 3 players will find themselves as newbies. But that has been already told, so I won't repeat it.

Artifacts:  From the Russian beta-version review  on the "Absolute Games" site I can say a few things about the artifacts. First of all there will be different kinds of them, some will be true artifacts with misterious powers, and some will be a regolar things - armors, shields, etc., you can put the regular ones on yourself and they will add to your defence, or, propably, will lower the damage given to the wearer. The "regular" ones can be bought at the Blacksmiths, along with potions.

About the shooting - I think that there is no problem with shooting when blocked. If someone stands between the attacker and the attacked - the retalitation will have a chanse to hit him, if he's not between - he's not blocking, and that's the ability of the isometric view - you can only bloch a shooter when you are standing between him and his target.


Note: if anyone is interested in the screen shots from the beta : http://www.ag.ru/reviews/heroes4beta/voted_none.shtml
____________
I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 14, 2001 04:35 PM

another thing about shooters...


There will also be line-of-sight restrictions on shooters, so a shooter cannot shoot someone behind a tree for instance (I like this)  As far as retaliation, I think if a shooter stack is "blocked" by an enemy troop standing next to it, they will not be able to retaliate.  Just my feeling on what would make sense, no proof or anything.  Of course, in most cases shooter vs shooter would be at 1/8th damage for extreme range.

Also wondering if any skills, artifacts, or specials will have anything to do with decreasing penalty for range?
____________
If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 15, 2001 02:42 AM

Interesting...


Nernug:
Yes, retaliation can vary very differently and if you can retaliate, its good to be in an open area so that you can nearly get maximum penetration with the shot.
Right, as in previous versions, the CPU controlled creatures always attacked your ranged attackers, and protected their own, since it is a very useful ability. They made sure they got to your ranged attacker so it couldn't affect anybody else in the battlefield, and therefore, other stacks had to move to greet the opponent to do the equal amount of damage in retaliation.
Bigger battlefield means more movement among creatures and heroes, and ranged attackers will have to negotiate with trees and obstacles to retaliate with another.

Slava14:
Yeah, everything is new, i agree, you have to change your strategy or move slightly from your old strategy to explore the options available in your turn.
If you stick with your past Heroes knowledge, you are really going to be crushed on the battlfield, since so much has changed.

Yes, we discussed artifacts in my Artifacts thread somewhere on the 2nd or 3rd page.
There are somethings you carry and others you wear. You gave me nw information in terms of you may only choose one physical artifact to wear during that battle, the bow the sword or the shield, etc. They affect how you (Hero) perform on the battlefield, like in HIII, but it doesn' affect the creatures i don't think.
Blacksmiths are going to become more and more inpostant, now that the old war machines have been scrapped, so it is an artifact shop if you like.

Good point, i think it should be directly in the path of the attacker if the retaliation shot is to be blocked. If he is open to fire on a horizontal line with the shooter, it should affect him normally, regardless if the other creature is standing on the hex next to him.
Isometric view makes that possibility much easier, as you can actually tell the difference between the hexes and paths.
Where as in Heroes II especially, you could have thought it was going for the creaure under he actually attacked, if you know what I mean. It was sometimes pretty unpredictable.
Thanks for the link!

Tristan:
That is a good idea, since in RL, you would not be able to fire through a solid object such as a tree, bush or mountain. That is an aspect of reality, and cannot see how it wouldn't work.
I don't know about that, a shooter could react to another shooter while another unit is standing next to it.
One thing which should change if they cannot retaliate to the other shooter is that in Heroes III, your own army could stand next to a shooter, and still shoot, but when the enemy does, it can't.
My choice, if the enemy unit is blocking the shooter, would be to enforce the shooters to not shoot when an ally is standing there blocking the shot, otherwise it would be unrealistic.
But i hope that shooters will be able to retaliate even though an enemy is next to it.

I think they will, as you may know, archery is a secondary skill which affects this:
Enables the hero to attack with a bow. With higher levels hero gain specialties like: double shoot, no ragne penalty, no wall penalty.
This could also affect the creatures which already use bows but i am not sure. But since there is a bow artifact, i am sure that it would affect creatures.

Some small things like this could affect battles in Heroes IV greatly in the future.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted December 15, 2001 07:29 AM

Quote:
Yes, we discussed artifacts in my Artifacts thread somewhere on the 2nd or 3rd page.
There are somethings you carry and others you wear. You gave me nw information in terms of you may only choose one physical artifact to wear during that battle, the bow the sword or the shield, etc. They affect how you (Hero) perform on the battlefield, like in HIII, but it doesn' affect the creatures i don't think.
Blacksmiths are going to become more and more inpostant, now that the old war machines have been scrapped, so it is an artifact shop if you like.

Yes. If you checked those screens at the URL you saw there the blacksmith screen - Items (such as armors and sword) at the top row, potion at the bottom row.

Quote:
My choice, if the enemy unit is blocking the shooter, would be to enforce the shooters to not shoot when an ally is standing there blocking the shot, otherwise it would be unrealistic.
But i hope that shooters will be able to retaliate even though an enemy is next to it.

Actually I see here no problem. Basically - there won't be "blocking" a shooter. If you stand in front of him when he shoots there will be a chance that he'll hit you, the fact that you were his ally shouldn't matter.



  I think that size should matter in the battle, but that's very hard to do. Still, if a halfling won't be able to bother Titan while he's shooting (if he still can do that) because Titan is a giant and halfling is small. But the chanse that something like this will be in the game is little.
____________
I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 15, 2001 11:16 AM bonus applied.

"OK. We have discussed the minute details of every topic about Heroes IV, almost."

No we haven't. Actually, there's a least one group of topics which I've noticed shines with its absence. I may or may not start it.

"Although certain creatures may now cast spells, will they do it with the same proficiency as the heroes, and if not, heroes may prove to be more and more powerful as they win battles and their level increases."

For most spells heroes and creatures will have the same effects for a spell. I believe it said so in an interview. For spells that used to have a duration, they now last for the full combat so it won't matter if you have a creature casting it or a hero. For direct damage spells high-level heroes will have an edge over creatures, but overall it's just as good to have a creature as a hero. The real limit for creatures is that they come with a set spellbook and cannot learn new spells.

"Not much has changed for heroes casting spells except for the manner they cast them in: Sacrifice attacking physically, and cast a spell, or sacrifice casting a spell and react with physical force. This way of battling will make the two main types of heroes; might and magic practically equal in power, ignoring what type is most needed at the time."

When it comes to physical force it's worth to mention that the Combat skill includes archery which allows the hero to make a ranged attack. This is also a new option for heroes.

"This will mean no elemental casting spells and rules out their appearance in the game or the expansion, unless they have a special bonding with a certain order, or they change the appearance and names."

Who needs Elementals???? I mean Nature magic can summon almost every creature there is and going by what Gus said on Angelspit's forum, you can probably summon Phoenixes and Fairy dragons. In conjunction with Demonology heroes can summon Imps, Cerberi, Venom Spawn, Devils and Ice Demons. Creature summonming has been greatly enhanced, not reduced.

"The hero may have to choose a single artifact to enter battle with, which seems to be the most likely choice because of its realism, or the hero brings a pack of artifacts, and uses a different one each turn to his or her own decision."

No, there is a hero equipment shot in the batch of 21 shots on the russian site, and the interview also said that heroes will have 13 slots that can be equipped. Artifacts like Potions are probably kept in the backpack and doesn't take up a slot.

"There are also different classes of artifacts, which may not be accessible to some certain heroes such as a shaman or sorcerer."

I believe it has been said there would not be such artifacts. There will however be artifacts that are useful only if you have a certain primary skill. The hero classes only says which classes you have, they do NOT say which classes you don't have.

"Or once again a barbarian may not have the knowledge or same proficiency as a sorcerer when reading a scroll, which could make the barbarians attempted attack slightly underhanded."

No, the limit for the barbarian is that he must FIND and HAVE the scroll to cast the spell (and will be very limited in which scolls and thus spells he can find). The mage has his spellbook. The effects of the spells are in most cases the same (lasts until end of combat). We also know that there will be items (I assume with charges) that lets heroes cast very powerful spells.

Another thing I believe I should mention is something Gus said on Angelspit's forum, which will affect combats. flyers will now interfere with flyers, so one Flyer cannot fly above another flyer.

Also when it comes to siege combat, flyers must pause to fly over the walls.

Below is the quote. Before this quote there was a discussion on Teleportation vs. Flying.

"In Heroes 3, no difference at all.

In Heroes 4, flyers intefere with flyers, so you can fly over a walker, but not a flyer. Flyers also must pause before flying over castle walls. Teleportation (the Devil ability or the spell) doesn't have either limitation.

- Gus"

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 15, 2001 05:11 PM

Lots of good thinking going on here!

Shooter retaliation:  If a shooter cannot shoot with an enemy next to them, they should not be able to retaliate, otherwise, they should.

Artifacts:  The deciding which arti to use in battle comment had to do with 2 different swords, I am almost certain you will be able to use a bow, sword, shield, armour, etc. all at the same time.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Slava14
Slava14


Promising
Famous Hero
I am 16 now....
posted December 15, 2001 08:41 PM

We have talked only about the shooter retalitation and completely ignored the hand-to-hand retalitation. I think that now we'll understand more than ever the impotance of attacking first. Also, the units who have the First strike ability will have a major advantage in battle, and we'll see the old retalitation system in them.
____________
I'm always happy to help.. unless I'm helping myself.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 15, 2001 09:17 PM

Actually, for all the grunt units, attacking first has become much less important, because unless you can attack with two creatures before the other creatures makes its attack it doesn't matter who attacks first any more.

It was said a while ago that creatures would have unlimited retaliation, but I was never able to find that interview myself. If unlimited retaliation is a fact then the importance of attacking first will be reduced to even further. You more or less have to have ways of preventing damage. If unlimited retaliation is a fact, you may want to hit the foe with your strongest stack first, because that will leave less creatures to retaliate next attack.

Just imagine how different battles would be in Heroes 3 if every creature had the Royal Griffin's ability.

The system makes damage spells, shooters, first strike creatures and no retaliation creatures more powerful. There will surely also be new way of conserving hit-points since attacking first doesn't help any more. The result is likely that the wait button will be hit more often.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 16, 2001 03:00 AM

OK. Some new aspects of battle have surfaced over the past 12 hours....

Here we go. I'll just join in with the above discussion...

Djive's 1st post:

"No we haven't.  Actually, there's a least one group of topics which I've noticed shines with its absence. I may or may not start it."

That is why the word almost was fitted in to the end of that sentence. There are only a few things that can stil be elaborated on, like potions, artifacts, and Adventure map statistics.

"For most spells heroes and creatures will have the same effects for a spell. I believe it said so in an interview. For spells that used to have a duration, they now last for the full combat so it won't matter if you have a creature casting it or a hero. For direct damage spells high-level heroes will have an edge over creatures, but overall it's just as good to have a creature as a hero. The real limit for creatures is that they come with a set spellbook and cannot learn new spells."

Right, i was explaining just one possible setback for creatures casting spells against hereos casting spells.
As you say, creatures will have only the spells they began with, and don't have the knowledge to attain a spellbook.
Duration spells last for full combat, cancelling out the same type of effects in Heroes III with Expert and so-on.
Hmmm. Not really, it is better to have a hero casting spells than creatures since more options are available, and sometimes can do it with more strength.

"When it comes to physical force it's worth to mention that the Combat skill includes archery which allows the hero to make a ranged attack. This is also a new option for heroes."

Yes, there are also other skills which enhance the hero itself not the creatures like previous Heroes series.
When it comes to battle, much has changed.

"Who needs Elementals???? I mean Nature magic can summon almost every creature there is and going by what Gus said on Angelspit's forum, you can probably summon Phoenixes and Fairy dragons. In conjunction with Demonology heroes can summon Imps, Cerberi, Venom Spawn, Devils and Ice Demons. Creature summonming has been greatly enhanced, not reduced."

Right, but i was solely speaking about the elementals in the game. They cannot appear in Heroes IV for those reasons.
Yes, summoning has taken a step up, not only can you summon it with spells, but also with skills available to the hero, making it overall more available to use.
Not only those creatures, others like Waspwort and other unknown neutral creatures can be summoned.

"No, there is a hero equipment shot in the batch of 21 shots on the russian site, and the interview also said that heroes will have 13 slots that can be equipped. Artifacts like Potions are probably kept in the backpack and doesn't take up a slot."

OK, i phrased that statement incorrectly, or did you answer it incorrectly??? Anyway, what i am saying is that yes, many artifacts can be brought around with you, i think that heroes can only choose to use one artifact per turn or in battle??? In battle i think though.
I was talking about battle not storage space.

"I believe it has been said there would not be such artifacts. "

Actually, there are. The different types include weapons, bows, armor, helms, shields, cloaks, boots, rings, amulets, staves, wands, books, potions, and miscellaneous. Staves increase a hero’s ability to use spells already known to the hero, books add spells to the spell books of heroes already skilled in magic, and wands allow any hero to cast a particular spell.

"No, the limit for the barbarian is that he must FIND and HAVE the scroll to cast the spell"

Yes, but will he do it with the same power is the question?
After all, if this was real life, which it is not  might add, the Barbarian would not cast the spell as well as a same level sorcerer, and was wondering if that would apply for Heroes IV.

"Another thing I believe I should mention is something Gus said on Angelspit's forum, which will affect combats. flyers will now interfere with flyers, so one Flyer cannot fly above another flyer."

That seems like a very good idea. That is an example of real life. Usually, flyers would be able to just soar over the wall of a castle, and since we haven't seen any siege screens from my knowledge, it will look different.
So will that mean flyers will be suspended in mid air when the other flyer moves? A mid air combat!

Tristan:

"Shooter retaliation: If a shooter cannot shoot with an enemy next to them, they should not be able to retaliate, otherwise, they should."

Exactly what i was saying. Shooters should retaliate regardless of the enemy, but if they don't they should not be able to retaliate at all.

"Artifacts: The deciding which arti to use in battle comment had to do with 2 different swords, I am almost certain you will be able to use a bow, sword, shield, armour, etc. all at the same time."

Yes, but they must not be on the same part of the body, and  i also read you cannot switch artifacts when in combat.
e.g. Take one from backpack and use it in battle.

Slava14:

"Actually I see here no problem. Basically - there won't be "blocking" a shooter. If you stand in front of him when he shoots there will be a chance that he'll hit you, the fact that you were his ally shouldn't matter."

The keyword in that sentence was 'If'
I would rather have the shooter retaliate even when an enemy is standing next to the shooter. It sounds more logical to have a choice on what to attack, rather than being limited, since there are already added limitations for shooters in Heroes IV, such as the 1/8 damage at certain times.

"We have talked only about the shooter retalitation and completely ignored the hand-to-hand retalitation. I think that now we'll understand more than ever the impotance of attacking first. Also, the units who have the First strike ability will have a major advantage in battle, and we'll see the old retalitation system in them."

Good comment!
You are correct, retaliation will now be weaker, which will mean not retaliatory creatures such as the Hydra will not be such an advantage as it once was!

Djive 2nd reply:

"Actually, for all the grunt units, attacking first has become much less important, because unless you can attack with two creatures before the other creatures makes its attack it doesn't matter who attacks first any more."

Like the Hydra can. It has the capability of attacking with 7 creatures if possible!
Yes, but the retaliation can be weaker in some circumstances, so sometimes it does pay off to attack first.
But i see what you mean, the first attacks will be of the same relativity.

"The system makes damage spells, shooters, first strike creatures and no retaliation creatures more powerful."

It does in a way.But if you cannot retaliate against a creature/s, you need to get the first attack in quickly, so it is important with the types of creatures you listed above.

Excellent thoughts everyone, stretching all Heroes battle knowledge!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted December 16, 2001 05:36 AM bonus applied.

Hydra:

  My thought on the retaliation of shooters is that if another unit, say imps for example is right next to your archers (or are they crossbowmen now?) I think it would interfere with their ability to shoot as they must be on guard against the melee attacks.  If so, it would be the same if they were making an attack or a retaliation IMO.  So my feeling is, either allow shooters to shoot regardless or don't let them retaliate with ranged fire when engaged.  My personal opinion leans towards the first.  Of course, with the "much larger battlefield" it may be unusual for shooters to BE engaged.  I am getting a feeling that to press an attack, one would need to advance their shooters with the rest of their army, otherwise the side that waits for the other to come will have too much advantage.
  I am also wondering with the larger battlefield, if there will still be creatures capable of crossing the whole thing on the first turn, or perhaps your first turn will be more setting up your forces.  Of course, all our thoughts will be answered in another 3 months

BTW nice thread, and nice, well-reasoned arguments.  I like!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 16, 2001 11:29 AM

About the missing topics. It's very basic, and when something very basic is missing, you're lead to believe that there are many other topics missing also.

For the damage spells I would b surprised if a level 1 hero would deal more damage than creatures. I'd say the damage capacity of the creatures probably corresponds to a level 10-20 hero or thereabouts. A low level hero should not have better power potential that the creature stack. Creatures will normally have more than 1 spell which they can cast so they already have a spell-book and in the beginning of the game they may have more spells than the typical hero.

Spells lasting for the full combat cancels out the effects fo spell-power. Expert magic is usually replaced by different spells. Mass spells will be separate spells as they were in heroes 2.

My belief is that elementals are out. The may be there in the guise of creatures of like creatures. Genies are air elementals, ice demons are water elementals, efreet are fire elementals, and perhaps there's also a cretaure that would be associated with the elemental plane of earth. I don't think the creatures called earth, water, fire, or air elemental are in the game at all. At last I hope not, they could put in more interesting creatures instead.


I'm not sure what you meant about heroes and artifacts. It will work as in Heroes 3. If you meant that heroes could swap artifacts in combat (like two swords), then we've been told they can't do that. When it comes to using the artifacts, most of them will work automatically. If a hero wants to use an artifact like a potion (or any other artifact that requires an action of the hero), then it will count as the normal combat activity for that turn. (So you can't use an artifact, move, shoot or cast a spell more than once in a turn.)

If you look at using a potion then the option to use them appears in the spell-book, so using an artifact and casting a spell will likely be very similar and especially so since the potions mimic the effects of spells. This would also applies to staves, books and wands. Spells that they give simply appears in the spell-book, so you won't necessarily notice the difference between using an artifact and using a native spell. Armageddon's Blade and a normal scroll already works this way in heroes 3. What may differ is that if an item has a limited number of uses (like a potion), then it appears in another section of the spell-book.

"Yes, but will he do it with the same power is the question?"

The basic effect will surely be the same, and this also applies to level bonuses. The thing that may be different is that the might hero likely lack certain skills that would increase the effectiveness of the spell, which the magic hero who has learnt the skill normally would have.

If you take damage spells, then sorcery (belongs to chaos magic) increases the damage caused by spells. A mage who learns armageddon will have this skill, a might hero who gets it from a wand and doesn't have chaos magic will not have it, and so damage will be less. pyromancy will likely also increase the effectiveness of the skill.

On the other hand when casting armageddon, I don't think there will be a difference between a hero with tactics, combat, chaos magic and a hero with nature magic, chaos magic and deah magic, providing the two has the same knowledge in the chaos magic skills and the same level.

"Good comment!
You are correct, retaliation will now be weaker, which will mean not retaliatory creatures such as the Hydra will not be such an advantage as it once was! "

No, retaliation and first strike will now be much stronger since you want to avoid taking the retaliation from the full stack when attacking, and that is exactly what these creatures do for you. Normal grunts will be waeaker because they no longer reduce the number of attackers before they retaliate, and if the defending stack has first strike the attackers may not even be able to deal a single point of damage.

Djive 2nd reply:

"It does in a way. But if you cannot retaliate against a creature/s, you need to get the first attack in quickly, so it is important with the types of creatures you listed above."

Yes, in that case you would or you'd want to place your creatures out of reach for that particular unit.

There will be some new tactics in which creature you want to hit. Often it will be a creature who has a special which affects the way damage is dealt.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 17, 2001 03:33 AM

Here are my replies:

Tristan:

"My thought on the retaliation of shooters is that if another unit, say imps for example is right next to your archers (or are they crossbowmen now?) I think it would interfere with their ability to shoot as they must be on guard against the melee attacks. If so, it would be the same if they were making an attack or a retaliation IMO. So my feeling is, either allow shooters to shoot regardless or don't let them retaliate with ranged fire when engaged. My personal opinion leans towards the first."


They are crossbowmen, yes, and they are a level 1 Haven creature.
Yes, i am in agreeance with you on that first opinion of yours. I would rather have the archer get on with his attack rather than tending to the imps needs then firing.
If you ask me, there are already too many constraints on the shooters at this present time, and would not like to see another one in order on top of two new ones.
Exactly, you are right Tristan, that is how I and possibly many others feel about this sequence.
Good thought!

"I am also wondering with the larger battlefield, if there will still be creatures capable of crossing the whole thing on the first turn, or perhaps your first turn will be more setting up your forces."

Hmmm. That is a hard question to answer. Because in Heroes II, many creatures could easily cross the battlefield, even low level ones such as Griffins and Gargoyles as such. In Heroes III, the number of units that could cross the battlefield in one go deteriorated, with only the faster top level flyers and some walkers crossing.
My guess in Heroes IV would be that; considering all the battlefields were enlarged every series; that only the fastest of the fast would cross, such as Pheonix, Devil, Angel, and some Dragons. That would be my GUESS.

"BTW nice thread, and nice, well-reasoned arguments. I like!"

Thanks, Tristan, you come up with very good thoughts and arguments yourself. They are well thought out, and some good questions.

Djive:

For the damage spells I would b surprised if a level 1 hero would deal more damage than creatures. I'd say the damage capacity of the creatures probably corresponds to a level 10-20 hero or thereabouts.

Yes, of course, i see your point that a lowly level one hero could not cast spells equal to the power of say a genie. The genie, being a hal human itself would have more knowledge than a level 1 hero at casting spells.
Yes, so in the long term, teaching a hero spells pays of more than having a creature cast them, you must agree.
When your hero reaches level 50 lets say, their spells could easily overpower a creatures'.

"Spells lasting for the full combat cancels out the effects fo spell-power. Expert magic is usually replaced by different spells. Mass spells will be separate spells as they were in heroes 2."

Yes, that is a new change that occurs for spells in Heroes IV. Or, expert magic can also be replaced by some certain spell enhancing secondary skills, or artifacts such as a satve, which has been a confirmed spell or magic enhancer.

"My belief is that elementals are out.
At last I hope not, they could put in more interesting creatures instead."

I agree with both aspects of that comment. Elementals, especially in Heroes II were a bit boring and bland, and could definitely be worked on. I think the Earth associated elementals you are looking for is a Waspwort.

"If you meant that heroes could swap artifacts in combat (like two swords), then we've been told they can't do that."

Yes, that is what i was saying. You may not use the same type of artifact, such as a shield and a shield and swap them in battle as you said.
And as you also said, you cannot use more than one artifact per turn. Or any other item for that matter.

"If you look at using a potion then the option to use them appears in the spell-book, so using an artifact and casting a spell will likely be very similar and especially so since the potions mimic the effects of spells."

Right, but the artifacts are used for different purposes than spells thankfully, as they can be used directly with the hero, as spells cant.
Potions are a good add in to the heroes series, and can be very useful in many circumstances.

"The basic effect will surely be the same, and this also applies to level bonuses. The thing that may be different is that the might hero likely lack certain skills that would increase the effectiveness of the spell, which the magic hero who has learnt the skill normally would have. "

Thankyou, i had already figured the latter of your comment, but was a bit vague with the former.
Level bonuses will be taken into account when using spells in battle. And of course secondary skills are also a big part of how the spell affects creatures and heroes.

"No, retaliation and first strike will now be much stronger since you want to avoid taking the retaliation from the full stack when attacking, and that is exactly what these creatures do for you."

Ah, you're forgetting the ranged attackers. Retaliation has become much weaker for them, since they now have many new hindrances.
Trees or objects in the path of their shot will block it from getting to the opponent. This is a major setback, as there are many objects on the battlefield now.
In some areas, they do 1/8 of their maximum damage when retaliating against and opponent. But in Heroes III, they did 1/2 damage when beyond a wall as such.
Right. Thats also why there are bonuses like first strike or blitzkrieg in play.

"There will be some new tactics in which creature you want to hit. Often it will be a creature who has a special which affects the way damage is dealt."

Thats interesting. That also happened in Heroes III in a minor form, with the Red Dragon, being immune to spells, as was the Titan.
But this is also in a different form, so it really cannot be likened to anything.

Good thoughts, everybody!
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted December 19, 2001 12:02 AM

Quote:
I have played Heroes one, two and three so I think that I know what I´m talking about...that you manchen (said) about spellbook I think that you are wrong on that the heroes just should have five each...


What exactly are you referring to? Five of what?
The limit heroes have is that they can learn only five out of the nine primary skills. All heroes starts with only one of these. The four others you decide at level up, but the chance to be offered a skill depends on the hero type and also to some extent on which skill that hero has already chosen.

Quote:
all heroes should have the same chanse to get them all so everyone got the same chanse in the begining...or?


No they shouldn't. If you hire a hero in a Preserve you expect that hero to have good chances to learn Nature Magic, even though that hero doesn't start with it. The same applies if you hire a from another town. For instance a hero hired in a Academy should have high chances to learn Order Magic.

If this wasn't true, then the hero could learn a magic skill but you would not be able to build a mage guild which teaches the spells your hero is good at casting.

Quote:
If every heroes got five each spell a heroes can get Airspells and another earthspells so you see that he with earth- don´t stand a chanse to the heroes with airspells...
Have you seen the/played HeroesIV?


Well the elements are gone and replaced with Life, Death, Chaos, Order, and Nature magic. A difference is that now the towns mage guild will only contain spells connected to the type of magic assoicated with the town, and you can build annexes to contain some spells from the neighbouring schools. You will never get any spells from the opposing schools.

____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted December 19, 2001 05:47 AM

Battles

"I have played Heroes one, two and three so I think that I know what I´m talking about...that you manchen (said) about spellbook I think that you are wrong on that the heroes just should have five each..."

?? I'm a bit vague on five of what?
There are 5 of the 9 primary skills that heroes can learn in Heroes IV, like Djive said, and that is the maximum that they have. Also there are five classes of magic alignments:
Order (Academy) Life (Haven) Death (Necropolis) Nature (Preserve) and Chaos (Asylum).
4 of the 5 Primary skills are decided on hero level up. A hero can reach level 99 we think.

"all heroes should have the same chanse to get them all so everyone got the same chanse in the begining...or?"

No, i agree with Djive, if the heroes were to learn all of the primary skills, everyone would get to have all the same chance at getting secondary skills, and that would defeat the purpose of strategy of what skill to choose. If you could choose all of them, you could say i would get them anyway, its just a matter of which one suits me best at the time. That would be slack.
Djive brought up a good point. You must look at the strengthhs of your hero too. If don't teach them the correct spells from the wrong mage guild, the hero won't be as strong since the skills he/she excells in won't help the spells he/she is casting.

"If every heroes got five each spell a heroes can get Airspells and another earthspells so you see that he with earth- don´t stand a chanse to the heroes with airspells...
Have you seen the/played HeroesIV?"

As Djive said, these magic schools have been replaced with magic schools which relate to the castles, and i listed them at the top of this post.
But these magic systems have different specialties to the old ones, say Chaos specialises in direct damage spells like armageddon and magic arrow, while life focuses on resurrecting.
There are also 'brother' alignments. Chaos magic is connected with Nature and Death magic.
Spells from non neighbouring alignments you cannot learn.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.1336 seconds