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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 12, 2009 01:55 AM |
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You selfish prick 
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2009 02:03 AM |
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Asheera:
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Do you think a Lawful Evil would do it if it does not benefit him?
If he was fanatically Lawful Evil, then yes. He could adhere to a moral code that would require him to kill or torture some people (not in self-defense), but also to uphold it and report violators, even if it wasn't in his self-interest.
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Suppose there is a witness to the NE's crime. Do you really believe that killing this innocent person (witness) is not in the benefit of the NE character?
Kind of, but it is not in the benefit of the NE character to perform the crime in the first place - since it invites the law to chase after him, plus harms society.
TheDeath:
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Unless of course, he holds superior values upon himself, which would make him Lawful.
He chooses to adhere to those values, but views it as being in his self-interest, and it is at the expense of others. E.g. a feudal lord.
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I do know Stalin was, and he wasn't just a 100% self-interested wacko, he had certain... morals, in his own way.
Hmm... I would say that Stalin was more Neutral Evil, since his trials and purges wouldn't really hold up to carefully applied Soviet law.
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But he will be well-off, that's what he lives for. Any moment of non-destruction brings him a desire to end it, it's in his self-interest goals. Obviously, you will argue that it is not rational, but then, so happens between alignments, because you are not Chaotic Evil -- different alignments call others irrational.
But even if he enjoys destruction (which is objectively irrational), it is irrational for him to destroy everything, because if he succeeds, then he will have nothing to destroy.
Say a sick guy enjoys killing dogs. He would never kill all of his dogs, though, because he wants to breed them so he'd always have more to torture. The Chaotic Evil, though, wouldn't.
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For example, you want everyone to be in healthy competition, not monopoly (just an example). This favors collectivism as the "big monopoly corporations" need to follow laws that the smaller ones do as well (and actually benefits the smaller ones), like "working together" in a way.
That's not collectivism. That's competition - the exact opposite.
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He disturbs (nature in this way), he can't be as peaceful as someone who doesn't (obviously there are DEGREES here, not black and white).
No, they're both peaceful, but the self-sacrificing one sees nature as more important than his well-being.
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it's exactly why utilitarianism is a FAIL concept in alignments
Subjective.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 12, 2009 02:40 AM |
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Quote:
He chooses to adhere to those values, but views it as being in his self-interest, and it is at the expense of others. E.g. a feudal lord.
Depending if he actually cares a little about the values or not at all, he would be between Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil.
Simply put, Lawful Evil always adheres to those values, regardless -- doing otherwise makes him think he puts himself down to the other 'barbarians' level (it was a similar thing said in the article, which copied from D&D I think)
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Hmm... I would say that Stalin was more Neutral Evil, since his trials and purges wouldn't really hold up to carefully applied Soviet law.
The law isn't a value in itself... it's by what it is backed up. I.e the law that prohibits you from killing is not a value -- backed up by what (let's say, the ten commandments, to keep it easy) is the value (in this example, religion). Of course Stalin was an atheist but he had different views of society and values -- like a more extreme version of Marx.
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But even if he enjoys destruction (which is objectively irrational)
nope, it is not objectively irrational. I wonder why you think so. Since obviously, material pleasure is no more rational than -- in fact, both are primitive instincts. So you use rationality to reach that instinct. He uses 'rationality' to fulfill his goals.
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it is irrational for him to destroy everything, because if he succeeds, then he will have nothing to destroy.
Let me put this differently. He doesn't like to destroy stuff, he likes stuff to BE DESTROYED. 
As long as something is there which he could have destroyed but didn't do, it's "painful" for him.
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Say a sick guy enjoys killing dogs. He would never kill all of his dogs, though, because he wants to breed them so he'd always have more to torture. The Chaotic Evil, though, wouldn't.
Exactly because Chaotic Evil wants to eliminate life and beauty and whatever else (in the article) completely. He may enjoy the PROCESS but the goal itself is the thing that drives him, not the process, like you described (i.e enjoy 'killing', instead of enjoy their deaths!)
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That's not collectivism. That's competition - the exact opposite.
You didn't get it. Monopoly, which means, letting a corporation do what it wants, is LESS COLLECTIVE than EVERYONE following a certain law (called anti-monopoly). That is, it's pure chaos since everyone does what it wants (concerning economy of course, that's what we're talking about). Any form of regulation makes it ORGANIZED, and thus on a collective basis, since everyone adheres to something -- i.e something which they all AGREE on (forcibly of course).
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No, they're both peaceful, but the self-sacrificing one sees nature as more important than his well-being.
Peaceful...
You know the definition of it? The literal definition...
I don't think, let's say, drilling for Oil is very peaceful. After all, you do something, and modify something (ignore the fact that you also make a lot of noise which would instantly rule it out)
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 12, 2009 02:44 AM |
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*takes a glimpse of what the thread has become*
...
You arseholes.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 12, 2009 02:48 AM |
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TheDeath, you will never listen. Let's just leave it at that.
And here's a simple alignment system: utilitarian and non-utilitarian.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted January 12, 2009 06:49 AM |
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Quote:
*takes a glimpse of what the thread has become*
...
You arseholes.
Agreed. Totally.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 10:30 AM |
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ditto.
@Bak
Can I spam the place now?
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 12, 2009 12:42 PM |
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Sure.
Hell, I might even join you.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 12:48 PM |
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 12, 2009 01:13 PM |
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*tries to figure out if that's some obscure Israeli sexual slang*
*finds nothing*
*lets out a sigh of relief*
Well I don't have a parrot, but I can always lend you a carrot. 
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 01:18 PM |
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*tries to figure out if that's some obscure Serbian sexual slang*
*knowing Baklava assumes that it is*
*runs away*
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted January 12, 2009 01:41 PM |
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Oh come on Geny, don't be foolish now.
You're surrounded. My schiz alter egos have you in sights.
And that wasn't even a sexual slang. I just said carrot cause it rhymes with parrot.
Wait, I think I'm having a streak of inspiration!
Geny cometh to me and sayeth
Dost thou haveth a lovely parrot
For I'd borrow thou nice parrot
Such is written in my Tarot
But I knew not what to say
In my fear that Geny's gay
For I thought, he's either kidding
Or on me now he was hitting
Carrots, thus, I mentioned then
To defend me from this man
Now HE knew not what to say
In his fear that I am gay
As Bruce Willis used to say
"Yippie yippie, kai yay"
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 12, 2009 02:02 PM |
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Haha this thread is getting much better 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 09:53 PM |
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Edited by Geny at 21:53, 12 Jan 2009.
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@Bak
Not a sexual slang, eh? Just rhymed with parrot, eh? Let me quote you here:
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I was thinking of undergoing lobotomy. They'd take away the sexually obsessed part of my brain and then I'd finally be free.
Then again, that would destroy at least 75% of joy from everyday conversation, and I'd stop smiling mysteriously in various utterly unsuitable situations...
So, forgive me if I don't believe you on this.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 12, 2009 10:18 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
*takes a glimpse of what the thread has become*
...
You arseholes.
Agreed. Totally.
What's there to agree? This is in the Tavern, and it's about alignments, not spam chit-chat.
@mvass: You're right. I don't listen to what you write, I read what you write.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 10:21 PM |
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If the thread maker said you've gone off-topic then you've gone off-topic... you filthy spammer.
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 12, 2009 11:01 PM |
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But spamming the thread with chit-chat is no better, it's worse.
For those that complain: how about you post something constructive and on-topic then, hmm? But no, your solution to stop something which went slightly off-topic (even though it was still partially on the topic of alignments) is to post something even more off-topic, like chit-chat spamming. There's the VW for that.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 12, 2009 11:03 PM |
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Quote:
For those that complain: how about you post something constructive and on-topic then, hmm?
No thanks, I'm good.
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted January 12, 2009 11:05 PM |
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Always "how about you", never "how about me" 
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 12, 2009 11:13 PM |
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Hmm, I don't think you got it.
It was more like this:
Someone steals a watch (analogy: posts slightly off-topic). Then someone else is annoyed and complains, and after that he goes and steals a car (analogy: posts completely off-topic chit-chat)
Do you think the one that stole the car is better than the one that stole the watch? I think it's worse
And anyway, I stopped posting about that from the previous page, and Death and mvass seem to have stopped as well, but Geny and Bak still seem to spam this place
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