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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted January 10, 2009 10:20 PM |
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2009 11:09 PM |
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Then you would be somewhere between Self-interested and Neutral.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Asheera
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Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 10, 2009 11:20 PM |
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Ok then I'm:
Between Loose and Neutral, Permissive, Between Self-Interested and Neutral, Destructive
... or something like that... I think 
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 10, 2009 11:30 PM |
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Odd...
Quote:
You Are:
True Neutral
True Neutral- A true neutral character does what seems to be a good idea. He doesn't feel strongly one way or the other when it comes to good vs. evil or law vs. chaos. Most true neutral characters exhibit a lack of conviction or bias rather than a commitment to neutrality. Such a character thinks of good as better than evil after all, he would rather have good neighbors and rulers than evil ones. Still, he's not personally committed to upholding good in any abstract or universal way. Some true neutral characters, on the other hand, commit themselves philosophically to neutrality. They see good, evil, law, and chaos as prejudices and dangerous extremes. They advocate the middle way of neutrality as the best, most balanced road in the long run. True neutral is the best alignment you can be because it means you act naturally, without prejudice or compulsion. However, true neutral can be a dangerous alignment because it represents apathy, indifference, and a lack of conviction.
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Detailed Results:
Alignment:
Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (21)
Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (15)
Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (20)
True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (24)
Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (18)
Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXXXX (9)
Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13)
Chaotic Evil ---- XXXXXXX (7)
Law & Chaos:
Law ----- XXXXXXX (7)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)
Chaos --- XXXXX (5)
Good & Evil:
Good ---- XXXXXXXXXX (10)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13)
Evil ---- XX (2)
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 10, 2009 11:46 PM |
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Hmm, how did you consider yourself Chaotic when you have less than Lawful? 
Redid the test (the old results were from a month ago when I last did it), things changed a little, got less evil and more good this time.Quote:
Alignment:
Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXX (7)
Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (23)
Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12)
True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (22)
Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (28)
Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXX (7)
Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Chaotic Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (23)
Law & Chaos:
Law ----- X (1)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)
Chaos --- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Good & Evil:
Good ---- XXXXXX (6)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)
Evil ---- XXXXXX (6)
Also some more alignments of HCers (according to my judgement, of course)
Shadowcaster: Lawful Neutral
GenieLord: Neutral Good
Mytical: Chaotic Good
RSF: Chaotic Neutral
Xerox: Lawful Evil (serves the evil God Blizzard and wants to impose it on others as well - lol joking about this one )
Gabislayer: Chaotic Evil
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Lexxan
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
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posted January 10, 2009 11:49 PM |
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Quote:
Hmm, how did you consider yourself Chaotic when you have less than Lawful?
Because I never follow rules unless not following them gets me intto trouble, and because I live my OWN rules instead of Someone else's
and because I always had gotten either Chaotic Good or Chaotic Neutral through tests like these.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 10, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Quote:
Between Loose and Neutral, Permissive, Between Self-Interested and Neutral, Destructive
... or something like that... I think
That makes you Chaotic Evil, according to mvass 
Mvass your system is a bit bloated and complex, some of the things could have been merged together, although that would lose a bit of precision, at least it wouldn't look as cumbersome.
And try to find better formulations, it sounds awful
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No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 10, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Asheera
Honorable
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Elite Assassin
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posted January 11, 2009 12:00 AM |
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I don't have problems with violent means for a good or neutral cause. But I'm against an evil cause though, violent means or not. "The end justifies the means"
And mvass classified CE kinda wrongly... in fact, you can't really classifiy 'evil' with mvass' system, since evil doesn't only mean how you achieve something, but why you do it. Torture is not always evil. If done for a good cause (extract information that could save lives, etc) it is not. Even Chaotic Good tortures evil creatures for information, just check the description 
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 11, 2009 12:04 AM |
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Quote:
since evil doesn't only mean how you achieve something, but why you do it.
Yes it does, 80%... it does.
Quote:
Even Chaotic Good tortures evil creatures for information, just check the description
Nope:Quote:
A chaotic good character will keep his word to those who are not evil and will lie only to evil-doers. He will never attack an unarmed foe and will never harm an innocent. He will not use torture to extract information or for pleasure, but he may "rough up" someone to get information.
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Asheera
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Elite Assassin
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posted January 11, 2009 12:11 AM |
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I get something different though from this:Quote:
# Never tortures for pleasure. Threats may be permissible... (Under extreme duress torture for information may be permissible).
Also:Quote:
8. You shall avenge the acts of evil-doers and enemies of freedom.
Isn't revenge destructive?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 12:13 AM |
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Asheera:
That sounds more like Neutral than Destructive, though. Because Destructive prefers violence to peace.
Quote:
you can't really classifiy 'evil' with mvass' system
Yes, you can. Evil is Self-interested Destructive.
TheDeath:
So, what do you think about my system?
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 11, 2009 12:36 AM |
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Quote:
TheDeath:
So, what do you think about my system?
I said it before:Quote:
Mvass your system is a bit bloated and complex, some of the things could have been merged together, although that would lose a bit of precision, at least it wouldn't look as cumbersome.
And try to find better formulations, it sounds awful
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 06:57 PM |
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The D&D system is too simple. For example, neither Lawful nor Chaotic describe me, as Lawful favors strict enforcement of restrictive rules, and Chaotic favors lax enforcement of few or no rules, whereas I favor strict enforcement of a few rules. And Neutral isn't really adequate, because it includes people who are "meh, I don't care about law or chaos" and those who "I'm extremely Lawful and extremely Chaotic!"
Plus, it resolves the self-interest ambiguity. According to D&D, both True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil, and some Lawful Evil are self-interested. Yet, out of these, it's hard to really describe any of these as unambiguously self-interested. True Neutrals are too apathetic. Chaotic Neutrals would remove laws and moral guidelines that would protect them. Neutral Evil and some Lawful Evil are like leeches - if discovered, cut off. And Chaotic Evil are dedicated to destruction - hardly self-interested.
IMO, my system is better, because it captures those nuances. A self-interested individual would be Self-interested Peaceful (or Neutral).
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 11, 2009 07:37 PM |
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Quote:
The D&D system is too simple. For example, neither Lawful nor Chaotic describe me, as Lawful favors strict enforcement of restrictive rules, and Chaotic favors lax enforcement of few or no rules, whereas I favor strict enforcement of a few rules.
That sounds lawful in a sense, although it depends on such 'rules'.
Quote:
Neutral Evil and some Lawful Evil are like leeches - if discovered, cut off.
Lawful evil aren't as self-interested as other kinds of evil. They have a self-interest but do NOT use any method conceivable to get there (unlike, let's say, Neutral Evil). They have some values, and ultimately, they are NOT much of the "the end justifies the means" attitude, unlike the other evils. (of course, the end being evil ).
They are more like those lurking masterminds, who have respect but also diabolical plans 
Quote:
And Chaotic Evil are dedicated to destruction - hardly self-interested.
Why not? If that's their own interest, not everyone has same interests, and they also enforce it upon others in a very... bad way (so they're evil).
Quote:
IMO, my system is better, because it captures those nuances. A self-interested individual would be Self-interested Peaceful (or Neutral).
Only that you aren't really peaceful. If you think you are, how do you name someone who doesn't disturb the environment as much as you? That's way more 'peaceful' in every definition of the word
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Asheera
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Elite Assassin
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posted January 11, 2009 07:38 PM |
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Quote:
That sounds more like Neutral than Destructive, though. Because Destructive prefers violence to peace.
Ah ok then I misunderstood you, then I'm Neutral.Quote:
The D&D system is too simple. For example, neither Lawful nor Chaotic describe me, as Lawful favors strict enforcement of restrictive rules, and Chaotic favors lax enforcement of few or no rules
Err, no.
Both may favor strict or lax enforcement, it has nothing to do with lawful/chaotic. However, as you said, a chaotic individual prefers few or no rules, whereas a lawful one prefers a lot of restrictive laws.Quote:
Plus, it resolves the self-interest ambiguity. According to D&D, both True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil, and some Lawful Evil are self-interested. Yet, out of these, it's hard to really describe any of these as unambiguously self-interested.
They all may be selfish, but they actually are very different in doing this. Your system actually does not describe this, whereas with "evil" and "neutral" you get more accurate results.
Take CN and NE. CN is selfish in the sense that it does not care about others much, he will not share any of his treasures with anyone except if there's a reason that interests him. However, a NE is even more selfish, as he will kill innocents if he gains any benefit from this (a CN does not). Both are selfish, but one is evil while the other neutral. Your system doesn't handle this very good IMO.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 11, 2009 08:07 PM |
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TheDeath:
There are two kinds of Lawful Evil (which is another reason why D&D is flawed). One kind worships (not necessarily literally), follows, and agrees with the evil law (note that this is different from a Lawful Neutral in the same situation, who would follow the law but have no particular support for its evil). This kind of Lawful Evil is not Self-interested, but Neutral or could even be Self-sacrificing. The other kind of Lawful Evil is definitely self-interested, but views laws and guidelines as the best way to achieve their goals. This second kind doesn't see any value in laws in of themselves, but understand that a lawful system is the best one for them to get what they want (at the expense of others).
The first kind of Lawful Evil is like a pious leader of a murderous theocracy. The second kind is like Hiter after being released from prison.
And if an ultimate Chaotic Evil achieves his ultimate goal and destroys everybody, he's not going to be very well-off, is he?
Quote:
That sounds lawful in a sense, although it depends on such 'rules'.
But you told me that Lawful favors collectivism. I'm an individualist.
Quote:
If you think you are, how do you name someone who doesn't disturb the environment as much as you?
Self-sacrificing (or Neutral) Peaceful.
Asheera:
Quote:
Both may favor strict or lax enforcement, it has nothing to do with lawful/chaotic.
If a Lawful person who believes that murder is wrong sees one person murder another, then he will take it to the proper authorities or punish the wrongdoer himself. If a Chaotic person sees that, then he is just as likely to say, "meh, at least it wasn't me", and move on with his life.
NE isn't really self-interested, at leas not rationally, because killing innocents is ultimately harmful.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Asheera
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Elite Assassin
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posted January 11, 2009 08:11 PM |
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Edited by Asheera at 20:14, 11 Jan 2009.
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Quote:
If a Lawful person who believes that murder is wrong sees one person murder another, then he will take it to the proper authorities or punish the wrongdoer himself.
Not necessarily. Do you think a Lawful Evil would do it if it does not benefit him? Or even worse: if it ruins him in some way?Quote:
NE isn't really self-interested, at leas not rationally, because killing innocents is ultimately harmful.
Suppose there is a witness to the NE's crime. Do you really believe that killing this innocent person (witness) is not in the benefit of the NE character? I beg to differ.
And this is just one of many examples.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted January 12, 2009 01:37 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 01:38, 12 Jan 2009.
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Quote:
The other kind of Lawful Evil is definitely self-interested, but views laws and guidelines as the best way to achieve their goals.
That's a good candidate for Neutral Evil. Not Lawful Evil.
Unless of course, he holds superior values upon himself, which would make him Lawful.
Lawful Evil is somewhat self-interested, but he does NOT let his self-interest above his values (well what he has anyway).
Quote:
The second kind is like Hiter after being released from prison.
Not sure if Hitler was Lawful Evil. But I do know Stalin was, and he wasn't just a 100% self-interested wacko, he had certain... morals, in his own way.
Anyway you may find the D&D system inadequate, but my version of it handles all cases
Quote:
And if an ultimate Chaotic Evil achieves his ultimate goal and destroys everybody, he's not going to be very well-off, is he?
And?
But he will be well-off, that's what he lives for. Any moment of non-destruction brings him a desire to end it, it's in his self-interest goals. Obviously, you will argue that it is not rational, but then, so happens between alignments, because you are not Chaotic Evil -- different alignments call others irrational.
This is not the case as it is subjective and every goal is defined for a given individual (usually 'shaped' by the alignment). If you look at it neutrally.
Quote:
But you told me that Lawful favors collectivism. I'm an individualist.
Yes, Lawful favors collectivism. But ANY "strict" enforcement, no matter how few laws are in place, favors collectivism. For example, you want everyone to be in healthy competition, not monopoly (just an example). This favors collectivism as the "big monopoly corporations" need to follow laws that the smaller ones do as well (and actually benefits the smaller ones), like "working together" in a way.
Quote:
Quote:
If you think you are, how do you name someone who doesn't disturb the environment as much as you?
Self-sacrificing (or Neutral) Peaceful.
The other one isn't peaceful. He disturbs (nature in this way), he can't be as peaceful as someone who doesn't (obviously there are DEGREES here, not black and white).
What Ash said:Quote:
Suppose there is a witness to the NE's crime. Do you really believe that killing this innocent person (witness) is not in the benefit of the NE character? I beg to differ.
it's exactly why utilitarianism is a FAIL concept in alignments.
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william
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Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted January 12, 2009 01:53 AM |
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I took this test a while ago and I think I had a different result than this one but this one is also okay.
You Are:
Neutral Evil
Neutral Evil- A neutral evil villain does whatever he can get away with. He is out for himself, pure and simple. He sheds no tears for those he kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. He has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make him any better or more noble. On the other hand, he doesn't have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has. Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies. Neutral evil is the best alignment you can be because you can advance yourself without regard for others. However, neutral evil can be a dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
Detailed Results:
Alignment:
Lawful Good ----- XXXXXXXXX (9)
Neutral Good ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Chaotic Good ---- XXXXXXXXX (9)
Lawful Neutral -- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (16)
True Neutral ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (24)
Chaotic Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (16)
Lawful Evil ----- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Neutral Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (25)
Chaotic Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (17)
Law & Chaos:
Law ----- XXXXX (5)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXXXX (13)
Chaos --- XXXXX (5)
Good & Evil:
Good ---- XXXX (4)
Neutral - XXXXXXXXXXX (11)
Evil ---- XXXXXXXXXXXX (12)
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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