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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Your favorite Heroes 3 creature?
Thread: Your favorite Heroes 3 creature? This thread is 11 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · «PREV / NEXT»
Lexxan
Lexxan


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Unimpressed by your logic
posted August 19, 2014 12:41 PM



MOOOOOOOOO
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 19, 2014 01:10 PM

@ohforfsake

1) Why split? Why neutrals? Why haste and all that stuff?

The way to test is to just put 1 archangel vs 1 ancient on 2 identical heroes (the same att and def) and fight them until one dies. Then, whoever is alive is better. Pretty simple. No need for complicated stuff

2) maybe

3) growth maybe. Speed? Meaningless against the likes of AA, or ABs. As for the Phoenix being the best in the game, I am sure all pros agree there is no best creature. All of them are good at something. As for being the best in a 1vs1 against other level 7 creatures the phoenix would lose most of the time. OK, maybe not against the Ghost dragon, but against all others

4) too strong in the way that they ignore 80% of enemy creature's defense. If that's not too strong of a skill I don't know which other is (probably gorgon's death stare)

Chaos Hydra? Yeah, a bit too slow indeed but if it were faster probably fortress would have been too strong.

Scorpicores: not a fan of, but they have their purpose. I like how they look however

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 19, 2014 09:58 PM

monere said:

1) Why split? Why neutrals? Why haste and all that stuff?

The way to test is to just put 1 archangel vs 1 ancient on 2 identical heroes (the same att and def) and fight them until one dies. Then, whoever is alive is better. Pretty simple. No need for complicated stuff


1 vs. 1 is not any situation, which is what you originally wrote. 1 vs. 1 is a very specific situation.

Speed is very important. In my opinion it is the single most important stat, especially when the unit count increases.

monere said:
I am sure all pros agree there is no best creature.


Some creatures are definitely better than others. A best is subjective, however some stuff is nice to know. E.g. if you let packs or lots of level 7's fight it out, you'll see that Titan's and AB's are on the low end of the spectrum. While AA's and AD's are on the high end.

iIRC it goes something like this:
AA
AD
GoD
BD
Titan
AB
Phoenix
GhD
CH

That's for splitted units, so speed becomes very very important, especially CH's becomes fragile.

Other stuff that's good to know, e.g. is that the AI treats Hydras in a very specific manner, allowing for some interesting creeping, e.g. week 2 Utopia's if I'm not mistaken.
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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 19, 2014 10:38 PM

monere said:

1) Why split? Why neutrals? Why haste and all that stuff?
The way to test is to just put 1 archangel vs 1 ancient on 2 identical heroes (the same att and def) and fight them until one dies. Then, whoever is alive is better. Pretty simple.


It may sound simple for a noob, but the balance between factions is build on more complex algorithms. Heroes classes and specific level ups, spells available, skills available, creatures immunities and much more.

So 1 vs 1 proves nothing.

1 gorgon will lose against 1 naga, but 10 gorgons will kill azure dragon, while 10 nagas not.

1 sprite will lose to one pikeman but with 20 pixies you can win battles you could not with 500 pikemen

Ans so on, the list is long.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 19, 2014 10:40 PM

If it sounds simple, and it looks simple, then it IS simple. For a noob like me and for a pro like you. It's simple really.

While I agree that ALL creatures in heroes 3 (or any other strategy game for that matter) are situational and have their role at some point in the game, it's also true that if one AB ignores 80% of ANY creature's defense then it's plain better than that creature. It's logical, and it's true, whether or not you manage to deceive me into thinking like you.

If one Ancient Behe fights one Archangel (or any other unit you want, I don't care) and wins (and it does!) then the AB is the best creature in the game. I don't know how I can put this more simpler than it is, and I don't know why you complicate it more than it shouldn't be.


Sal said:
monere said:

1) Why split? Why neutrals? Why haste and all that stuff?
The way to test is to just put 1 archangel vs 1 ancient on 2 identical heroes (the same att and def) and fight them until one dies. Then, whoever is alive is better. Pretty simple.


It may sound simple for a noob like you, but the balance between factions is build on more complex algorithms. Heroes classes and specific level ups, spells available, skills available, creatures immunities and much more. So 1 vs 1 proves nothing. 1 gorgon will lose against 1 naga, but 10 gorgons will kill azure dragon, while 10 nagas not.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 19, 2014 10:47 PM

I contradict myself quite often tbh and I'm not just saying it. But I do speak the truth every once in a while

So, this being said I still say loud and clear that a 1 vs 1 duel is the simplest, most accurate way of seeing which creature is the best in the game. I doubt that there is one single creature in the entire Heroes 3 that can kill the AB in 1 vs 1. And I'm not talking about crystal dragons, or megadragons (do those even exist in H3? lol). Obviously that such dragons (if they existed) are better than the AB because they have more hps, higher speed, more damage, etc etc.

But of all the creatures available in towns the AB whopps everyone's ass hands down. In 1 vs 1 I mean. If you want to split 2 or more units, buff them, put them on hack/tazar etc., now that's where situational comes into play and this type of test doesn't provide accurate, unbiased conclusions.

And I'm not even a fan of the AB. I like it and that's all, he's too freakin strong of a unit to be fun to play with. But let's give the Caesar what belongs to him (is this the right saying?)


OhforfSake said:
monere said:

1) Why split? Why neutrals? Why haste and all that stuff?

The way to test is to just put 1 archangel vs 1 ancient on 2 identical heroes (the same att and def) and fight them until one dies. Then, whoever is alive is better. Pretty simple. No need for complicated stuff


1 vs. 1 is not any situation, which is what you originally wrote. 1 vs. 1 is a very specific situation.

Speed is very important. In my opinion it is the single most important stat, especially when the unit count increases.

monere said:
I am sure all pros agree there is no best creature.


Some creatures are definitely better than others. A best is subjective, however some stuff is nice to know. E.g. if you let packs or lots of level 7's fight it out, you'll see that Titan's and AB's are on the low end of the spectrum. While AA's and AD's are on the high end.

iIRC it goes something like this:
AA
AD
GoD
BD
Titan
AB
Phoenix
GhD
CH

That's for splitted units, so speed becomes very very important, especially CH's becomes fragile.

Other stuff that's good to know, e.g. is that the AI treats Hydras in a very specific manner, allowing for some interesting creeping, e.g. week 2 Utopia's if I'm not mistaken.

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Sal
Sal


Famous Hero
posted August 19, 2014 10:48 PM

The flaw in your analysis is that game situations where one AB fights one AA, while both heroes are identical stats and no spells, is what?

0.00000001 probabilities?

So yes AB will win against AA is single.

Does it make a more useful creature? No.

AA will always spit on AB on long maps where you mass tons of them.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 19, 2014 11:27 PM

Yes it does. What's wrong with you man? Did logic left you? If one creature owns all other creatures can't you say about it that it's more useful? Geez!

"AA will always spit on AB"? Well, in that case, skellies will always spit on AA on the same long maps where you mass tons of them. See how these arguments are biased and.... situational?

If you want to conduct an accurate test you obviously leave the bias and variables out of it. And to make a test accurate in our case would mean to simply put 1 creature (you pick any creature you want, even the mighty gorgon) against 1 AB and see which one wins.

As I said earlier, why complicate something that is simple?


Sal said:
The flaw in your analysis is that game situations where one AB fights one AA, while both heroes are identical stats and no spells, is what?

0.00000001 probabilities?

So yes AB will win against AA is single.

Does it make a more useful creature? No.

AA will always spit on AB on long maps where you mass tons of them.

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 20, 2014 01:45 AM
Edited by fred79 at 01:46, 20 Aug 2014.

this thread is for "favorite creature". not "best creature". why is there arguing about someone's choices for favorite creature

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 20, 2014 07:06 PM

fred79 said:
this thread is for "favorite creature". not "best creature". why is there arguing about someone's choices for favorite creature


No need to be harsh on Monere, please. He's new and probably not used to the board yet, and while it may be off topic, I do enjoy insigths about XvsY such as his.

If I recall correctly, like me, you enjoyed the 100 EE's vs. 100 GE's insght as well, so why the objection?

monere said:
a 1 vs 1 duel is the simplest, most accurate way of seeing which creature is the best in the game.


Let's not call absolute objectivety on a simplified test.

I'm not disagreeing that 1 AB defeats 1 AA under your proposed conditions, but that's not what I objected to either. I'm not very interested in discussing the specific scenario you'd intended, but I do think it's somewhat easy to refute your allogation.

Apart from what Sal wrote, then in a 1 unit vs. 1 unit battle, unit health becomes a much more relevant factor than it is in any other part of the game. This is easy to see if you increase the unit count for such battles.
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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted August 20, 2014 08:29 PM
Edited by kicferk at 20:40, 20 Aug 2014.

As far as what unit is the best, I would not apply the "1vs1 duel" criterium, rather "how useful the unit is for the player" one.

In games versus AI on custom maps archangels special skill is worth much more than behemots. One can use clone/resurrect combo to raise his entire army from dead, which is way more useful than dealing greater damage.

In games versus human, behemots special may be worth more, but if the games are played with griffin conservatories, probably archangels will have much higher number, and thus will become much stronger stack.

Moreover, in fights against neutral creatures archangels are clearly a better unit. Not to mention that they give speed advantage in dragon utopias. So they may be almost twice as expensive as ancient behemots, but deservably so.

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PhoenixMK
PhoenixMK


Hired Hero
Burn baby, BURN!!!
posted August 21, 2014 02:44 AM

1. Naga Queen
2. Titans
3. Power Lich
____________
"I'm Phoenix. If I die it's only to be reborn hopefully better and brighter than before."

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fred79
fred79


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted August 21, 2014 04:53 AM

OhforfSake said:
fred79 said:
this thread is for "favorite creature". not "best creature". why is there arguing about someone's choices for favorite creature


No need to be harsh on Monere, please. He's new and probably not used to the board yet, and while it may be off topic, I do enjoy insigths about XvsY such as his.

If I recall correctly, like me, you enjoyed the 100 EE's vs. 100 GE's insght as well, so why the objection?


it wasn't meant to be harsh, i was just asking why. plus, i didn't want this place to degenerate into the osm(or into a fanboy-type argument).

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2014 08:39 AM

Uhm, it doesn't matter. Wait, HPs do matter, but still, when you say "which is the best creature" it really means "which is the best creature" (not stack of creatures). So...

And no, I'm not new at the game (I understood your irony and it has no place in this discussion cause I didn't insult you). I've been playing it since 1999 so I'm not new. I am not just as good as you pros because I CHOSE to play against the AI only. As I've always said, I only played (and still play) Heroes3 because I enjoy the complexity of the game and its graphics (and yes, I do find Heroes 3 more beautiful than its successors). I don't want to match my strength with any human opponent, and that's why I may not be as good as you. But new to this game, I am not!


OhforfSake said:
fred79 said:
this thread is for "favorite creature". not "best creature". why is there arguing about someone's choices for favorite creature


No need to be harsh on Monere, please. He's new and probably not used to the board yet, and while it may be off topic, I do enjoy insigths about XvsY such as his.

If I recall correctly, like me, you enjoyed the 100 EE's vs. 100 GE's insght as well, so why the objection?

monere said:
a 1 vs 1 duel is the simplest, most accurate way of seeing which creature is the best in the game.


Let's not call absolute objectivety on a simplified test.

I'm not disagreeing that 1 AB defeats 1 AA under your proposed conditions, but that's not what I objected to either. I'm not very interested in discussing the specific scenario you'd intended, but I do think it's somewhat easy to refute your allogation.

Apart from what Sal wrote, then in a 1 unit vs. 1 unit battle, unit health becomes a much more relevant factor than it is in any other part of the game. This is easy to see if you increase the unit count for such battles.

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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2014 08:43 AM

I misunderstood it then. My bad, I apologize

fred79 said:
OhforfSake said:
fred79 said:
this thread is for "favorite creature". not "best creature". why is there arguing about someone's choices for favorite creature


No need to be harsh on Monere, please. He's new and probably not used to the board yet, and while it may be off topic, I do enjoy insigths about XvsY such as his.

If I recall correctly, like me, you enjoyed the 100 EE's vs. 100 GE's insght as well, so why the objection?


it wasn't meant to be harsh, i was just asking why. plus, i didn't want this place to degenerate into the osm(or into a fanboy-type argument).

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kicferk
kicferk


Known Hero
posted August 21, 2014 09:51 AM

monere, if you assume that the "best creature" means that we don't take numbers into account, then the best creature is clearly azure dragon. But I am yet to see a multiplayer game won thanks to it

Besides, taking your criterium of 1vs1 with heroes of equal stats:
1 archangel vs 1 ancient behenoth, hero stats: 0,0,2,3
AB has 19 attack and defense, 30-50 damage, 300HP.
Archangel has 30 attack and defense, 50 damage, 250HP.
When AB attacks, he does so vs 6 defense, so his attack is greater by 13(65% boost). When Archangel attacks, his attack is greater by 11(55% boost).
Average damage of AB by 1 attack will be (30+50)/2 * 1,65 = 68 His maximum damage is 50 * 1,65 = 82,5 -> 82
Damage of Archangel by 1 attack will be 50*1,55 = 77,5 -> 77
That means 4 attacks of any of them will kill the opponent, but 3 will not be enough(even if AB has luck and gets 50's, he will deal 246 damage).

That being said, archangel with his speed advantage can decide who will be the first one to get the 4th blow.

That proves that even with "fair, 1vs1 fight", ancient behemots will not always win against archangels. And in my artificial fight there was no way to use resurrect skill of archangels, and I did not take into account their morale boost.

I still love AB's more than AA's(as far as favourite creature goes), but I can't deny that archangels are overall much better unit.

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Iceman
Iceman

Tavern Dweller
posted August 21, 2014 11:08 AM

My favourite creature is probably the Sharpshooter, being able to shoot without any range penalty is very nice
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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2014 12:11 PM

well, I tested this long ago and the AB won. Don't ask me how cause I don't remember but I'm just saying what has happened in practice.

Probably that if I retake this test again that the AA will win this time, or probably that if I do a - I don't know - 5/9 test the AA will win 5 or more times. I really don't know. But I am not lying when I say that in the test I did the AB won. And then, naturally, I assumed the AB is better

Oh well, to be fully honest there is no best creature in a strategy game like Heroes. All creatures have their purpose.

Also, about the Azure Dragon: I don't remember what this creature does or how it looks like but I mentioned earlier in this thread that I was strictly referring to creatures that can be recruited in the 9 towns when I said which creature is the best. I didn't account the neutrals.


kicferk said:
monere, if you assume that the "best creature" means that we don't take numbers into account, then the best creature is clearly azure dragon. But I am yet to see a multiplayer game won thanks to it

Besides, taking your criterium of 1vs1 with heroes of equal stats:
1 archangel vs 1 ancient behenoth, hero stats: 0,0,2,3
AB has 19 attack and defense, 30-50 damage, 300HP.
Archangel has 30 attack and defense, 50 damage, 250HP.
When AB attacks, he does so vs 6 defense, so his attack is greater by 13(65% boost). When Archangel attacks, his attack is greater by 11(55% boost).
Average damage of AB by 1 attack will be (30+50)/2 * 1,65 = 68 His maximum damage is 50 * 1,65 = 82,5 -> 82
Damage of Archangel by 1 attack will be 50*1,55 = 77,5 -> 77
That means 4 attacks of any of them will kill the opponent, but 3 will not be enough(even if AB has luck and gets 50's, he will deal 246 damage).

That being said, archangel with his speed advantage can decide who will be the first one to get the 4th blow.

That proves that even with "fair, 1vs1 fight", ancient behemots will not always win against archangels. And in my artificial fight there was no way to use resurrect skill of archangels, and I did not take into account their morale boost.

I still love AB's more than AA's(as far as favourite creature goes), but I can't deny that archangels are overall much better unit.

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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted August 21, 2014 06:53 PM

@monere
I did not mean a new player, but new to the forum.

monere said:
when you say "which is the best creature" it really means [...]


It means whatever the person who's been asked wants it to mean, unless further clarification by the person who asks the quesion is given, which there hasn't been. It's all subjective.

I'd be happy to know if you've reevaluated your original statement which is what I reacted to:

monere said:

yes, you need say more because ancient behemoths thrash archangels at any time


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monere
monere


Supreme Hero
posted August 21, 2014 10:19 PM

Nah, I didn't reevaluate anything and I won't do it. I told you that I contradict myself many times, so nothing surprising here.

I still say however that the AB thrashes the AA at any time and I say this based on the test I did a looooong time ago. Until further testing (or until proven otherwise) I will stick with my opinion, sorry.

As for me being new to the forum, that's kind of true

OhforfSake said:
@monere
I did not mean a new player, but new to the forum.

monere said:
when you say "which is the best creature" it really means [...]


It means whatever the person who's been asked wants it to mean, unless further clarification by the person who asks the quesion is given, which there hasn't been. It's all subjective.

I'd be happy to know if you've reevaluated your original statement which is what I reacted to:

monere said:

yes, you need say more because ancient behemoths thrash archangels at any time



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