|
| Thread: Warrior Guild – extended concept | |
|
Malgore
Adventuring Hero
|
posted June 05, 2009 01:02 PM |
|
|
Warrior Guild – extended concept
Intro:
The original concept can be viewed here: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=28723
The idea is to have special structure (named Warrior Guild here, credit for name goes to Alcibiades) which provides exclusive perks for Might Heroes.
Thesis:
1. First off Might Heroes have Tactics Book instead of Magic book. They can cast only Traveling spells and may not cast any spells unless they have some magic-loaded Wand-like Artifacts.
It is assumed that Magic and Might Heroes belonging to one Faction have same Faction skill and different perks. There are at least two exclusive skills for Might Hero – Warmachines and Tactics.
2. As for Warrior Guild – it is a 3-leveled structure that replaces current Blacksmith and provides Might Hero with perks\abilities that can be learned upon visiting town. Also it provides Traveling spells as addition.
Warrior Guild sells warmachines like current Blacksmith. Magic Heroes can buy any, but Might hero can also add:
- Different payload for ballista and trebuchet\catapult, depending on faction;
- Different ammo for shooters, depending on faction;
- Healing with ability to provide amount of elemental resistance;
All these additions available to Might Hero at Warrior Guild, Level 1.
Warrior Guild, Level 2 provides Might Hero with perks (called Orders) that can be issued by Hero in Combat. Orders do not use mana and last for one turn. There are General Orders, available to all and Faction specific ones.
Samples of General Orders include:
- Hold position! – while defending unit retaliates before being attacked (like Preparation).
- Charge! – unit gains 0,5 boost for speed.
- Incoming! – unit ignores 50% of damage from incoming shooting.
While General Orders available at Warrior Guild, Level 2 and Faction Orders available at Warrior Guild, Level 3. Some samples:
Barbarian - Unleash the Rage! – unit(s) gains Cleave but receives more damage from enemy retaliation.
Deamon Lord – Dice and slice! – unit(s) becomes frenzied and immediately attacks nearest unit at full damage. The frenzied unit will not retaliate till next turn.
And so on.
How it works:
Let’s use Might Hero concepts for Haven and Dungeon - noble Knight and cunning Shadowlord.
Knight is a defensive fighter and it is reflected in his Faction perks and Orders. One of his Faction perks, Guarding, enables him to guard some of his units during the battle (as currently). His ballista is loaded with Armor Piercing bolts that ignore enemy Defense. Also available at Warrior’s Guild are Demolishing Rounds for trebuchet – these affect whole sections of defensive walls. Overall Knight is rational and protective warrior.
Shadowlord is tricky and aggressive opponent who commands swift and deadly army. His trebuchet is loaded with Corrosive Rounds that affect nearby units (lower unit Defense) upon striking the walls. His ballista is loaded with Venom bolts that are poisoning enemy. His perk, Punishing Strike, enables him to expose enemy unit for following incoming attack – for one turn affected unit has Defense lowered by Shadowlord’s Attack. One of Shadowlord’s Faction Orders, Intercept!, enables unit to attack bypassing enemy units.
As usual feel free to comment.
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
posted June 05, 2009 01:31 PM |
|
|
This is a verry good concept and I like it verry much. It seems logical that Might Heroes have restrictions on magic spells but instead uses warmachines and militarytactics to overcome his enemy.
Also the fact that you're trying to make it faction-specific suiting the general style of the Hero, makes me like this verry much.
However this does hinge a lot on one assumption, that is that every faction has both a Might and a Magic Hero. I personally would try to make it less dependant on that assumption.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
|
|
posted June 05, 2009 02:02 PM |
|
|
I like the concept, too.
I suggest a good variety of different shooter ammunition for the ranger.
by the way, what is assumtion? (or so) I'm no native speaker...
|
|
War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
|
|
posted June 05, 2009 03:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
by the way, what is assumtion? (or so) I'm no native speaker...
An assumption is a proposition that is taken for granted, as if it were true based upon presupposition without preponderence of the facts.
Or to put it in a less scientific way.
When you assume something, make an assumption, you work with that assumption as a fact. As is done here, Malgore works with the fact that the Factions have a Might and a Magic Hero. There is no evidence that this is a fact, and therefor he has made an assumption.
____________
Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 05, 2009 11:07 PM |
|
Edited by MattII at 23:11, 05 Jun 2009.
|
One little (or not so little) problem with this is the fact that magic is a hero-specific set of skills, so to really compete, any might skill will also have to be hero-specific, rather than creature specific as you're suggesting here.
The way I see it, to balance might and magic out you have to either A: return heroes to combat (my personal favourite, but likey to be unpopular with many), or B: find some way to boost a might hero's individual attack. I suppose if you really wanted to push it you could pair up might and magic abilities, so that if you get one you can't get the other, but this has no fewer problems than what you're proposing
|
|
Malgore
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 08, 2009 12:00 PM |
|
|
Quote:
However this does hinge a lot on one assumption, that is that every faction has both a Might and a Magic Hero. I personally would try to make it less dependant on that assumption.
I guess the solution could be following: Might Heroes still may learn basic spells but may not have access to higher magic (Magic Schools skills). Instead they are simply given Warmachines or Tactics skill.
Quote:
One little (or not so little) problem with this is the fact that magic is a hero-specific set of skills, so to really compete, any might skill will also have to be hero-specific, rather than creature specific as you're suggesting here.
The way I see it, to balance might and magic out you have to either A: return heroes to combat (my personal favourite, but likey to be unpopular with many), or B: find some way to boost a might hero's individual attack. I suppose if you really wanted to push it you could pair up might and magic abilities, so that if you get one you can't get the other, but this has no fewer problems than what you're proposing
Depending on concept Might Heroes may receive more orders (abilities for boosting units) or more strikes (types of direct attacks) abilities. Barbarian and Deamon Lord are likely to have more strikes then orders while Alchemist and Knight will have more orders.
Just to elaborate idea of Tactics skill: it provides bonuses for various types of units like Swiftness (+1 to speed or initiative) for flying, Archery (+20% for shooting), Monstrosity (large creature may attack walls) and etc. For each level of Tactics skill Hero will be able to learn more orders from Warrior Guild.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 08, 2009 11:51 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I guess the solution could be following: Might Heroes still may learn basic spells but may not have access to higher magic (Magic Schools skills). Instead they are simply given Warmachines or Tactics skill.
This isn't solving the problem, it's ignoring it, because you still need two hero classes.
Quote:
Depending on concept Might Heroes may receive more orders (abilities for boosting units) or more strikes (types of direct attacks) abilities. Barbarian and Deamon Lord are likely to have more strikes then orders while Alchemist and Knight will have more orders.
This doesn't solve the issue of these 'orders' being a ridiculous way of attempting to solve a non-existent problem (might skills are already balanced by the fact that they make the whole army stronger).
Quote:
Just to elaborate idea of Tactics skill: it provides bonuses for various types of units like Swiftness (+1 to speed or initiative) for flying, Archery (+20% for shooting), Monstrosity (large creature may attack walls) and etc. For each level of Tactics skill Hero will be able to learn more orders from Warrior Guild.
The more I hear about these 'orders' the more I hate them. The system in place works better than this would, because the might skills boost the whole army, not just the hero, which is the effect of the magic skills.
|
|
Malgore
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 09, 2009 07:02 AM |
|
|
Suggested two Might exclusive skills are not the only - Attack and Defense are still there. These two boost whole army while Warmachines and Tactics provide options for specific units.
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 09, 2009 07:28 AM |
|
Edited by MattII at 07:34, 09 Jun 2009.
|
|
War Machines are special-case units (immobile), similarly with the hero him/herself, so no War-Machines is not really a unit-specific skill. Besides, I'm also still failing to understand how this book of 'orders' is anything but a cargo cult attempt to have 'magic made of might', which ultimately will fail for the precise reason that it's a cargo cult solution not a real, working solution. Also, remember that Luck and Leadership are also Might skills (they serve no other purpose, although some of the abilities do).
|
|
alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
|
|
posted June 09, 2009 05:09 PM |
|
|
I will soon(TM) post my suggestions for a new skill layout which will relate to this by more than a perifere way.
One new thing will be introduction of certain Combat Techniques that can be learned by Heroes, similar to spells but applied as direct attack.
I'm very much in favor of this idea, and will try to put my main fraim up as a draft to show my thoughts, and maybe we can give each other some inspiration.
____________
What will happen now?
|
|
stankelbenet
Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
|
|
posted June 14, 2009 06:04 PM |
|
|
I might have written this before...
IMO might heroes and magic heroes should stay different. By giving might heroes special abilities we are actually giving them spells.
I've always seen it like this:
Might hero:
Makes all troops stronger. Might heroes should be used for the great battles, where lots of troops participate. They don't participate much themselves unless they've learned magic, which they can, but they will never be as good as the magic heroes.
Magic hero:
Uses mana to cast spells. Spells can do many things, such as damaging but also enhancing troops. The ones which use damaging and summoning spells are good at hit and run and battles with few troops, because they get an advantage with the spells.
The ones who use buff and curse spells use large armies. They're stronger than might heroes but still less efficient because they have to recharge when they are out of mana. That counts for the magic hero as well.
The ideas you propose might at first sound like making more difference between might and magic, but it actually does the opposite. By excluding ballistas from magic heroes you take a great small-army-advantage away from them. By giving might heroes "strikes" you give them an advantage in small combats.
I believe that by allowing the two types of heroes use eachother's techniques they become more different and it gives me more room for designing my hero. An alchemist and a battle mage (HOMM3) are mixes of might and magic.
I reject your proposal
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2009 12:12 AM |
|
|
|
Thank you stankelbenet, it's good to know that at least one other person here can see that this is a bad idea.
|
|
Malgore
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 15, 2009 10:04 AM |
|
|
I’m glad that suggested concept received various types of comments.
I agree with some parts of critique – by giving might heroes some abilities we make them somehow look like magicians. Yet I cannot see how boosting of individual attack or fielding of heroes (ala HoMM IV) can solve the issue.
Let’s take a look at ToE – the development of distinct Hero type inevitably led to offering specific Barbarian’s non-magic abilities. All these abilities can be compared to spells (even the Blood Rage is a mass-effect spell that boost units in various ways).
Thus partially I tend to view suggested here as a mere development of ToE concept.
Here is an extended Hero type’s comparison, including skills.
Heroes of Magic:
- Perform two primary roles: 1) to blast/manipulate/disable enemy with spells, 2) to boost their armies with spells.
- Have Marks: special abilities/attacks that enhance magic in various ways (see Mark of Wizard, Necromancer, and etc.). Marks are gained as perks from Faction Skill.
- Have access to Magic (schools) skills: Destruction Magic, Dark Magic, Light Magic, and Summoning Magic.
- Have access to specific magic-boosting skill: Sorcery (speeds up casting and provides mana saving perks), and etc.
Heroes of Might:
- Perform two primary roles: 1) to boost their armies through skills and orders, 2) to directly attack enemy.
- Have Strikes: direct attacks with various side effects (stunning, poisoning and etc., see Powerful Blow, Retaliation Strike, Mark of the Damned, Imbue Arrow and etc.). Strikes are gained as perks from Faction Skill.
- Have access to primary Might skills: Attack (boosting army damage and providing perks for various unit types), Defense (boosting army defense and providing perks for various types of protection).
- Have access to countering and unit-specific skills: Resistance (provides magic resistance and weakening/detaining of specific magic types through perks), Warmachines, and Tactics (speeds up hero’s turn and provides general and Faction specific Orders).
As a side note: Enlightenment, Logistics, Leadership and Luck (provides only 50% damage) remain common skills. Also it is assumed that all skills are 3x3 with few Faction specific perks at perk tier 3.
|
|
Warlord
Famous Hero
Lord of Image Spam
|
|
posted July 01, 2010 06:43 PM |
|
|
I like this idea! Perhaps you could do something with armor or weapons for creatures, sort of like the mini-artifacts in Academy?
____________
|
| |
|
|
