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kesnar
Famous Hero
from Kesnaria
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posted July 03, 2009 11:30 PM |
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Timelines...
Have you ever thought of timelines...I don't mean the sci-fi timelines where someone goes to the past and changes the timeline with consequences in the present/future.
I mean the timelines we walk upon...Think about it, we walk on one and only one timeline, however, everyday, every minute, we create and destroy timelines, with every decision we take we change the history, we agree with a timeline while dumbing another.
Some of these decisions may change the world completely while others may have no consequence at all...
All of these may seem really obvius to some, maybe all of us, but when we sit down and think of it, we may realise how much power we have, what can we really do...We may take decisions/timelines that will lead us or someone else(maybe the whole world) to ultimate doom or to the ultimate opposite of doom.
I don't say not to take decisions, neither to think really carefully what you do, nor do I say that every decision has a consequence and that all things are connected...I just make a remark, maybe an idiotic remark, and I hope that someone will sit down and think about all the timelines and all the power we have, hoping that something will get out of this thread and hope that a decision I took today won't be negative, or at least not so much negative...
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xerdux
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted July 04, 2009 01:29 AM |
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Yes, I think its very possible that there are timelines. In fact, the timeline ideas are a very large and "hidden" factor behind the actual story in my fantasy universe.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 04, 2009 05:05 PM |
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so if I decide to eat a hamburger instead of a pizza, the world may end? 
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kesnar
Famous Hero
from Kesnaria
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posted July 04, 2009 06:02 PM |
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Quote:
I don't say not to take decisions, neither to think really carefully what you do, nor do I say that every decision has a consequence and that all things are connected...
I am not the guy who says that everything will be destroyed...I just presented you a fact which made me think of some things, hoping that some of you will think of it too...and not spam without having read my post
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 04, 2009 07:27 PM |
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There is no "timeline", it's just space. The changes in space are what we call time, but time in itself does not exist. Changes exist, though. And yes we can change the outcome by decision, but there's no hidden time factor. At least, it's worthless to assume that it is, when it doesn't do any good.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 04, 2009 07:51 PM |
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Quote:
There is no "timeline", it's just space. The changes in space are what we call time, but time in itself does not exist. Changes exist, though. And yes we can change the outcome by decision, but there's no hidden time factor. At least, it's worthless to assume that it is, when it doesn't do any good.
lol? It's a measurement.
Holy off-topic rant Batman.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted July 04, 2009 07:54 PM |
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time...line...
TIME DOES NOT GO IN LINES!!!!!
it goes in circles
that is why clocks are round!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 04, 2009 08:00 PM |
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A simple but yet intriguing fact about time and people:
You are not the same person you were five minutes ago.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 04, 2009 08:01 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:01, 04 Jul 2009.
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Quote:
lol? It's a measurement.
Holy off-topic rant Batman.
Yes, it's a measurement. What's so off-topic? The reason that I took the time to EXPLAIN it instead of just, you know, CLAIMING:
"Time and especially timelines don't exist"
don't ask why, cause it's off-topic 
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 04, 2009 08:15 PM |
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Anyone else thought of the many worlds-theory when reading this or do I fail to understand the theory?
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 04, 2009 08:18 PM |
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That theory is on the same page as String theory: overcomplicated for no real result.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted July 05, 2009 07:47 AM |
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Quote:
Yes, it's a measurement. What's so off-topic? The reason that I took the time to EXPLAIN it instead of just, you know, CLAIMING:
"Time and especially timelines don't exist"
don't ask why, cause it's off-topic
Kesnar's post has nothing to do with hard physics. It was philosophical/motivational. And yes, both time and timelines do exist, unless you think measurements and diagrams don't exist.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 05, 2009 08:07 AM |
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Every day decisions I do not think majorly affect the timeline. Unless they result in a death, or such, they are like very small ripples in a huge ocean. They affect nothing in the grand scheme of things. However there are things that happen that would affect time on a grand scale.
If JFK had not been shot, that would have had a huge impact on what came after. Regardless if that would have been bad or good.
If Lincoln had never decided to run for president..that would have a huge impact.
So I think the 'splits' in the time line are only made when MAJOR events occur. Of course I could be wrong.
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Message received.
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Rarensu
Known Hero
Formerly known as RTI
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posted July 05, 2009 11:15 AM |
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Edited by Rarensu at 11:20, 05 Jul 2009.
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On the Inertia of History
I think history has inertia. That is to say, individual events are not important; what is important is overall trends. Events happen because the trends demand them.
Our famous example is World War II. Many people believe that if Hitler had never come to power, then the War and the Holocaust would never have happened. However, consider the facts involved. Germany, Japan, Russia, America, and Britain all WANTED to go to war. They didn't really care why or with whom, they just needed an excuse to send a lot of young men out to shoot bullets at each other, so that they could jump-start their floundering economies with the war spending. Roosevelt declared in public that he wanted peace, but there is enormous evidence to suggest that he knew about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor days before it happened and did nothing to prevent it.
Quote:
No matter what political reasons are given for war, the underlying reason is always economic.
- A. J. P. Taylor
In addition, there was significant anti-Semitic sentiment present in Germany before Hitler came to power. Even if he had not ordered them to round up Jews, it wouldn't have been long before they would have booted the Jews out anyway. I believe that, while WWII might have begun much differently without Hitler, it would still have happened and the net result would have been the same.
Another example I see here is the election of Abraham Lincoln. Many people believe that Lincoln's stance on slavery is the cause of the American Civil War. However, I do not believe that this is the case. If you look carefully at the electoral college in effect at the time, you will notice that Republican states (north) outvote Democratic states (south) almost 2:1. That means that no matter what the southern states vote for, the north always gets what it wants. The southern states realized that they were participating in a system not unlike that of the 13 original British-American colonies: pay taxes, take orders, no vote. OF COURSE they would immediately secede! It's what Americans do; we proved that in 1776. Furthermore, Lincoln didn't really care about the slaves.
Quote:
My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
- Abraham Lincoln
The reason he signed the Emancipation Proclamation is because he needed the support of his people and his people wanted to free the slaves. This also means that if he had not existed, his replacement would also have had to free the slaves for the same reason. If there had been no war, then congress would have passed the Emancipation Proclamation all on its own, because the north outvotes the south and the north wanted abolition.
When a culture begins to feel the need for a change, then that change will eventually happen. Either it will elect officials with the same belief, or it will overthrow the government and replace it with a new one with the same belief. Obama was elected because we were ready for him. If he hadn't stepped up, then it would have been Hillary, who also represents a step in that direction. Barring both of the, some other minority candidate would have appeared to fulfill the role. It doesn't really matter what decisions that Obama makes once he's in office; if we disagree with them, then we will simply throw him out in 2012 and then it all goes back to normal. If he decides to nuke a country, then it doesn't happen just because he says so. His generals have to be OK with the idea or they'll block the order by feigning technical difficulties. The president doesn't decide the direction of our nation; the nation decides which president is pointing in the right direction.
Throughout history, there have been a number of important scientific discoveries attributed to a single person. However, if you search carefully, you will usually find that someone else was working on that very same problem at the same time, but only finished after our famous scientist had already been published. Darwin beat Wallace to Evolution, Newton beat Leibniz to Calculus, and Faraday beat Henry to Inductance. This shows that, for most scientific discoveries, the world would have continued on its path of progress even without our famous scientists. I believe that this is because there is a natural order to how science progresses. As soon as the world is prepared for a discovery to occur, that is when men suddenly appear who are interested in solving the problem.
Quote:
When Nature has work to be done, she create a genius to do it.
- Ralph Waldo Emerson
There are only a handful of counterexamples, namely, general relativity and phonetic writing, which do not appear to have had a contemporary equivalent. However, I believe that, given time, even these astounding discoveries would have been rediscovered by subsequent scientists.
In summary, I believe that individual people and individual events are not important because the trends that create them will simply find another way to keep things moving. Furthermore, radical changes are impossible because the trends do not support them. Therefore, from a time-traveler's POV, history has "inertia".
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Sincerely,
A Proponent of Spelling, Grammar, Punctuation, and Courtesy.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted July 05, 2009 11:28 AM |
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Well I must say I disagree. Though the theory deffinately has merit. History would be much different if say America had not discovered the H-bomb before the Axis. If people like Thomas Edison had not been around, half of his profilic inventions may have never came to be..if not more.
Also, sometimes it is the character of the person that defines their deeds. So although some other person besides Lincoln might have indeed try to do what Lincoln did, they might not have had the fortitude to accomplish it. Of course then again they might have done even greater things, we may never know.
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Message received.
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Totoro
Famous Hero
in User
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posted July 05, 2009 11:54 AM |
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Quote:
that is why clocks are round!
No they're not!
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kesnar
Famous Hero
from Kesnaria
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posted July 07, 2009 12:56 AM |
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Well, I mainly talk about ourselves and not the whole world...(At least I started from their), for example when you ask a girl/boy out, you take a certain timeline and dumbing another which is not to ask her out...this decision may lead you to ultimate happiness but also to ultimate doom, of course it can have no real effect, if you dumb him/her the next day, or if you don't go out with her/him...
I was mainly speaking to an atomic level...And yes the whole thing is more of a philosophical, of course the time is not in lines, it's somewhat of a metaphore...
What I want to say is that there is a big timeline which consists of the smaller timelines, our timelines, that we define them, the big/main timeline changes as the smaller ones change...
Rarensu what you talk about seems to me like a "team fate"...not that everyone will live his predefined life, but that what happened and what will hapen is predefined and cannot be changed, even if the persons that triggered weren't there...Of course if Hitler hadn't power, the WW2 may have happened, but what if none of these leaders didn't have power?!?Would it happened...well it's totally unknown and logically it will be mainted unknown...
Anyway the whole thought came to me because I said to a girl that I love her and how much...And I imagined that there was a crossroad, with one clear and safe path and one risky...(I took Muad'dib's consult and choose the risky, as a clear, safe path leads ever down to stagnation(from Dune ))...I choose a path that I still don't know where it will lead me...it may be ultimate doom to our friendship or it may flourish our relation...I don't really know, but I think the first one as she doesn't talk to me now..
And thus I started to think that with all the decisions we take we choose roads that may lead us to other roads, or back to the road we were...
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2009 01:23 AM |
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Rarensu,
I disagree with your idea. At least if you're talking about planetary level. Say there's a device that will release an unstoppable virus. Only one person knows the password to activate it. Suppose that, if it is given the wrong password, the virus is destroyed. (therefore you can't crack it, you can only guess once if you don't know it)
Such person can now make a decision that will affect everyone on the planetary level. Killing him, if he decides to do it, will have a vastly different output.
Also, to avoid a "virus will be made by someone else", let's assume that if the virus is not released in the next 24 hours, an antidote would be available (otherwise, it would be too fast or something).
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted July 07, 2009 01:31 AM |
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Quote:
If people like Thomas Edison Nikola tesla had not been around
There, fixed.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted July 07, 2009 01:53 AM |
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It's the mustache I tell you!
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