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| Thread: Teaching religon: Heritage of hostility? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elodin
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posted July 09, 2009 11:47 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 11:58, 09 Jul 2009.
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@ angelito
OK, I'll just paraphrase folks instead like I have been doing in all but a few instances when I felt it was necessary to quote them.
It is interesting that you singled me out for quoting when JJ did so on the same page. I would appreciate the same rules applying to all sides in the discussion. I know the "other side" needs a lot of help but still... 
I quoted because JJ deliberately took me out of context when he quoted me.
And Mystical was evidently changing her question and implied that I said something I did not say so I quoted for clarification.
@ JJ
Yes it is the job of the PARENTS to warn their children of those in the world who would like to turn them away from the things of God. No child of mine would ever believe cutting off their finger would win them salvation or any sort of reward because I have done my parental duty in training them in the the Truth.
Of course if a parent were denying a child medical aid in order to kill the child it would be wrong. For example, Obama voted 4 times to deny children who survive induced labor abortion medical aid. That is wrong. That is murder, just like abortion is murder.
I do hope that some day you will come to the realization that everyone has the right to practice their religion the same as you do. I really find it strange that you keep condemning others for saying their religion is right all the while saying yours is right and even saying your religion should be imposed on others.
I don't agree with the Jehovah's Witnesses but I respect their right to practice their religion. Religion came long before the state. The founding fathers said God gave us our rights, not the state and said the most sacred right was the right of freedom of religion.
The State should not think to interfere with the relationship of a man with his God.
You said society has the duty to watch over society for religious nut cases. Actually the most dangerous "nut cases" society needs to watch out for are the socialists. Socialists think the State is essentially God and has the right to control every aspect of our life. I certainly have no desire to live under the iron boot of an oppressive socialist state.
I don't want my child to be taught religion by some socialist government bureaucrat who thinks everyone myst bow to the will of the state and that religion is just a bunch of BS.
The founding fathers said God (not the State) gave us the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They said those rights could only be taken away by due process (a criminal trial.)
It is obvious that if you belong to a Satanic cult and want to sacrifice me you would have to violate my right to life to do it. You would be taking away my right to life so it is illegal.
Oh, there is nothing wrong with teaching a child that unbelievers go to hell. What is wrong is you thinking you have the right to impose your religious doctrines about salvation on others. You don't believe people go to hell. So? Others do and your government bureaucrat has no right to teach a child otherwise.
The really harmful teaching is teaching a child to bow to the State, like I said. The State does not love the child. The State want a good little robot that it can program into thinking the State is all. That is ultimately the State religion that the State will teach.
Hitler had his National Socialist Party Hitler Youth Group that was brainwashed into turning in their parents for talking bad about the socialists or for opposing the teachings of the State.
The Hitler Youth Group were viewed as "Aryan Supermen." They placed the State as God. Here is a little song they loved to sing.
Quote:
We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel,
Away with incense and Holy Water,
The Church can go hang for all we care,
The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.
The socialists always say the State brings salvation yet actually it destroys liberty and grinds everyone who won't bow to it under its iron boot.
Sorry, I don't accept the State as God nor do I accept the right of a State oracle to determine the religious upbringing of my child.
No, JJ, it is not God that I take for a fool. God said don't bow to anyone but me. God must come before your beloved State.
Quote:
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
You can tell me to submit to the State all you want. But when the State tells me to go against the teachings of God I will not bow to the State. I bow to God and God alone.
It is moronic to say a child does not have a choice in what to believe. And you don't have a right to determine the religious teaching that parents give their children. The child as gains knowledge will decide what to believe that his parents taught him and what to toss aside.
You complain that if a parent teaches a child that the child would not have a choice in what to believe. But if that is so, the same would apply to if your government bureaucrat taught the child his religion under your logic.
No, JJ, God would not want parents to teach that he is a complete and utter fool. But I would say that it is complete and utter foolishness for a person to think they have the right to replace the parents as the religious teacher of the child when God clearly gave that position to the parents.
No, JJ, it is not difficult to follow the Word of God. One decides to follow God and does it with God's help. No one is perfect and we may stumble along the way but we get up and keep pressing on. When we hear other voices saying "Bow to the State" we just stay focused on the voice of the Shepherd. The State would love to own our very souls but our souls belong to God.
Abortion is child murdering, JJ, not allowing a child to refuse a chemo treatment or blood transfusion. Allowing a child to make to make a medical decision is not sacrificing the child to God. And I definitely won't sacrifice my child to the State by letting the State fill his mind with the warped religious teachings of a State prophet.
I don't care if Britain tells their children they must dance naked on a bed of coals. My child does not have to do that. Like I said, God gave people rights, not the State.
No, I disagree with you. The State should not be able to overrule the parents and child. The State is not God.
And as I said before it is amazing how the same people who say a 13 year old girl can get an abortion without parental consent say a 13 year old boy can't refuse chemo. The State-god must have ultimate control over every aspect of one's life in socialism.
The State-god is a cruel "god" indeed. One to which I shall not bow. I will not allow its oracles to brainwash my children with State propaganda.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 09, 2009 01:10 PM |
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Elodin, I really like your answer to angelito; it amounts to, "Oh I keep to the law, at least to the letter if not to the spirit, except when I feel it's necessary to break them."
But even better is your reference to me, quoting you at last: "Why are you pointing your finger to me when my brother JJ did the same?" So much for your big explanation about how God did right to punish those who provoked the Israelites into sinning.
But that's typical. You KNOW yours is the truth, so everything you do to make the truth heard is RIGHT.
It is as I said. This thread has reached its ninth page and you have delivered ample proof that you do not have any intention to discuss things - look above, there is the reason. Since you KNOW the truth, you can't discuss it, you can only tell it, teach it, preach it and speak it, but as far as you concerned there really is nothing to discuss here.
Not to mention the names you give things to disfigure them. The spectres you summon to draw the bleak picture of oppressed people who are forbidden to teach their children what they want - as wrong as it may be, since right and true is only yours. State religion. Socialist government beaurocrats. Hitler (of course), Stalin (naturally). Obama (worse). Yes, it sure is all that and worse if we strive to stop parents killing their children and tell them instead that believing is NOT equal to knowing, because IF believing WAS knowing, then it would be called KNOWING and not BELIEVING.
I mention this here, because I was sure it would come to that, which was the reason why I tried to prevent it, asking to avoid this in point 2 of my first post. It's off-topic.
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So far, all of Elodin's posts amount to ONE point actually:
Since the majority of the people - as opposed to him - doesn't know the true truth (or doesn't want to hear it), the only peaceful solution is to allow everyone not only their personal religion, but to teach it to their children as well with as much force as is deemed necessary, since only under those conditions Elodin can teach his children what he knows is the truth. The fact that others teach them wrong stuff is irrelevant because that's their problem.
If he wasn't SURE his truth was the true truth, he obviously could or would even have to teach this to his children, and in that case there would be no argument anymore.
Which is the only point then: I know I'm right and I demand the freedom to teach my children that truth.
The problem is, he cannot prove his truth, and since he cannot do that it's no truth, but a belief, it's easy as that - a belief that is DECLARED truth.
MYTICAL's point so far is (and correct me, if I'm wrong), that he doesn't see any way to be sure that this is WRONG. Calling it wrong would amount to claiming knowledge the same way then the other "side".
This is a logical fallacy because it overlooks that before a claim can be accepted it has to be PROVEN. The claim "I know the truth" has NO value whatsoever without at least a modicum of PROOF. Rejecting that claim, since the claimer cannot prove it isn't claiming anything, it's just rejecting an UNFOUNDED claim.
What I advocate therefore is, that the actual situation (no factual objective truth that can be checked) is told as it is (some people BELIEVE it's true) and not as these people wish it was (we are part of the few who actually KNOW the truth).
I repeat, this is not my belief or religion: THIS IS WHAT THE CLAIMERS ARE SHOWING ME - or can they prove they know the truth? I don't think so.
Which closes it for me. I feel, I'm repeating myself, and this is feeling like beating a dead horse again. I may be wrong, and someone may make a real good contribution, though.
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Elodin
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posted July 09, 2009 01:41 PM |
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@ JJ
As I said, I quoted because of your taking my words out of context when you quoted me. I'm just asking for a level playing field. If a moderator chastises me for quoting then those who quote from "the other side" of the discussion should be chastised also.
That's like asking the referee of a boxing match to enforce the rules on both boxers. I hardly think that is unreasonable.
It is amazing how you accuse me of not discussing anything when you are just repeating the same old thing about parents "force-feeding" a child religious beliefs that are not yours and your desire for the State to enforce your beliefs on the child and the parents "for the good of society." And condemning others for saying they are right all the while insisting that they are wrong and you are right.
And certainly I am not for anyone killing their children. Abortion and such is certainly wrong.
Actually you have not summarized my position correctly. I just want you to be free to teach your kids your religion and me to be able to teach my kids mine. That seems like a reasonable position to hold. Its a rather novel concept called freedom of religion.
It is sad that you condemn me for not proving my belief to you and yet you can't prove your own beliefs. It is even sadder that you demand that your beliefs be taught to my children.
I think it is not religion that results in a "heritage of hostility" but the desire of others to force their religion on other people. Everyone should be tolerant of the right of others to believe something different and not insist that the State mandate what should be believed.
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Shyranis
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posted August 17, 2009 07:00 AM |
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Personally I think people should be able to teach their children any religion they wish. People must also teach their children to be respectful of others as well, which is one of the tenets of every major religion I can think of. Some people are lacking in the latter respect, chalk that up to the human condition (which could be laziness to bother being complete, or perhaps misinterpretation and improper explaination by the parents, or the occasional bad apples like the KKK (White Racists pretending to be Christian), Westboro Baptist Church (Really, they hate a lot of things), The Israelite Church of God in Jesus Christ, Inc. (Black Racists pretending to be Christian), The Christian Identity (Anti-Semite, Anti-non-white false Christians), or the Nation of Islam. (Black Racists pretending to be Muslim). Well, really mostly anybody listed here.
Hate preachers tend to be traitors to their own religion and poison real, honest to goodness practicianers in the eyes of the world.
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Mytical
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posted August 17, 2009 08:19 AM |
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Oh goodness no Shyranis. Heaven forbid people think for themselves! The government must decide what you think, eat, read, wear, and do. I mean, after all they are smarter/wiser/ and more all knowing then us poor dumb people. So they should tell us how to raise our children while we go stick our thumbs in lightsockets  . (I hope the sarcasm is evident here).
You are absolutely correct Shyranis, people should be free to believe what they wish, and to teach their children. "An it harm none, do as thou will." Of course I won't force that belief on anybody, so those who want can disagree if they wish.
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JollyJoker
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posted August 17, 2009 09:28 AM |
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Quote:
Oh goodness no Shyranis. Heaven forbid people think for themselves!
That's too good not to quote, because that's what happens.
Aren't you realizing that "people think for themselves" and parents teaching their children their personal belief as (the only) true religion is exactly hampering that? If a child is not only introduced to religion in general and the belief of their parents as something personal and subjective, but instead is taught that it is the one and only truth, how is that supposed to help them later to think for themselves?
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xerdux
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posted August 17, 2009 04:57 PM |
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I need Sweden, it's illegal to teach "religion" directly and influence the children with it. Sure, there is religion but the intention is to "understand other cultures better".
My personal opinion is that it should be forbidden anywhere to teach religion and influence people with it.
Children need to get their own opinion, not become christains because their parents are christains.
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Elodin
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posted August 17, 2009 04:59 PM |
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Quote:
That's too good not to quote, because that's what happens.
Aren't you realizing that "people think for themselves" and parents teaching their children their personal belief as (the only) true religion is exactly hampering that? If a child is not only introduced to religion in general and the belief of their parents as something personal and subjective, but instead is taught that it is the one and only truth, how is that supposed to help them later to think for themselves?
I'm sorry but are you opposed to children being taught 2+3=5? I guess so, since that is not "thinking for themselves." And they sould have to develop all scientific theories themselves rather than being "indoctrinated" with them, right?
The family relagionship came long before any government. The family is the best place to determine what a child should be taught. Government beaurocrats need to keep their nose out of religion.
It is the parents job to parent. It is not the government's job to parent. The State would love to indoctrinate children into being good little drones that worship the State.
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angelito
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posted August 17, 2009 05:59 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 18:01, 17 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
I'm sorry but are you opposed to children being taught 2+3=5? I guess so, since that is not "thinking for themselves."
But 2+3=5 is the same in EVERY country, while God is not 
Quote:
The family relagionship came long before any government. The family is the best place to determine what a child should be taught. Government beaurocrats need to keep their nose out of religion.
Yep...and now we think about why so many kids of drug dealers win nobel prizes....
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Azagal
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posted August 17, 2009 06:12 PM |
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Quote:
But 2+3=5 is the same in EVERY country, while God is not
How do you know? As far as I know every culture believes in a god or gods. Sure they don't all have the same name but they're all god, no?
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Darkshadow
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posted August 17, 2009 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
But 2+3=5 is the same in EVERY country, while God is not
How do you know? As far as I know every culture believes in a god or gods. Sure they don't all have the same name but they're all god, no?
Yeah, some countries 3+2=5
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Azagal
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posted August 17, 2009 06:26 PM |
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That may actually be a better way of putting it.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Shyranis
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posted August 17, 2009 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
Aren't you realizing that "people think for themselves" and parents teaching their children their personal belief as (the only) true religion is exactly hampering that?
In most cases, parents will teach their children that other beliefs are to be respected and that their children must eventually come to their own decisions on religion. Some religions (like most sects of Buddhism) even maintain that all faiths are a path to enlightenment.
Perhaps if the thread was called "Teaching Extremist Religion", as generalizing tends to hurt those that don't try to indoctrinate their children into their religion. Such extremism can exist and does exist worldwide but it must be discouraged. All it does is breed hate groups and radicals. (To be honest, most religions have had suicide bombers at some point. They're usually denounced by the rest of the practitioners and seen as a corruption of a pure ideal. Example, Muslims are taught that suicide is immoral in general, much like Christians. They are also taught that suicide bombing causes you to stay blown to pieces in the afterlife as punishment.)
Religion in general is not a problem, only people who would use it as a weapon to hurt other people are.
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angelito
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posted August 17, 2009 07:29 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
But 2+3=5 is the same in EVERY country, while God is not
How do you know? As far as I know every culture believes in a god or gods. Sure they don't all have the same name but they're all god, no?
So what kind of God do the Chinese have? (As far as I know, Buddha is not a God...)
And I don't have to mentioned the fact that the holy christianity doesn't allow ANY other Gods beside the one with the white beard, while there are many religions out there who have many more Gods...
So God is NOT the same, not the even the RESULT of a belief is, while the summary of 2 and 3, no matter in what order you put it, will ALWAYS result in 5.
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Elodin
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posted August 17, 2009 08:11 PM |
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I'm sorry but you seem to be ignorant about the Christian teaching of God. God has always existed as a Spirit who fills and transcends all of time and space. As such he has no form that can be seen. God has manifested himself in many ways and did 2000 years ago begin to exist as the man Jesus Christ. Now, since Jesus died and rose at about age 33 is is extremely unlikely that he has a white beard.
Visions are symbolic and the description of Jesus in Revelation of Jesus having a white beard is a symbolic one.
Yes, Christianity teaches only one God. I should be free to teach my children my beliefs (religious and otherwise) and you should be free to teach your children yours. A government beaurocrat should have no right to tell me that I can't teach my child that Christianity is true.
Yes, 2+3 is always 5 and there is always the God who exists as Jesus Christ even if you don't think he exists. Truth is truth regardless of who believes it to be true.
Just like if you think 2+3=7 I should not be forced to teach my child that 7 is an "alternative answer" I should not be required to teach my child that all roads lead to heaven.
I have taught my children to lovve, pray for, and seek the good of all people regardless of their religious beliefs. I have not taught them that all religious beliefs are equally true but that everyone has a right to believe whatever they want to believe. That is what tolerance means. Tolerance does not mean that you say everything is equally true.
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del_diablo
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posted August 17, 2009 09:06 PM |
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Quote:
Yes, 2+3 is always 5 and there is always the God who exists as Jesus Christ even if you don't think he exists. Truth is truth regardless of who believes it to be true.
But 2+3 is absolute, it WILL and IS 5. The only alternativ anwser is to use a different way of calculation.
However, God exists? Who i am to judge, you can teach "i BELIVE that god exits and that is the truth", but "God exists, everything else is a lie". The difference is overwhelming.
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Salamandre
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posted August 17, 2009 09:21 PM |
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The difference is that a mathematic fact will sooner or later proof it self, while God is unable to manifest by him self.
Elodin tells his children that God exist, so they believe it. Abdul tells his children Allah exist, so they believe him. Xu Xei tells his children Buddha exist, and they believe him.
There are zero chances GoD manifest by himself and create a single believer, if this info wasn't introduced by repeatedly bashing from the early childhood. If you are not told he "exist", you will never feel it.
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Elodin
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posted August 17, 2009 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
The difference is that a mathematic fact will sooner or later proof it self, while God is unable to manifest by him self.
I'm sorry, but God has manifested himself at many times throughout history and still manifests himself today so your statement is just wrong.
Quote:
There are zero chances GoD manifest by himself and create a single believer, if this info wasn't introduced by repeatedly bashing from the early childhood. If you are not told he "exist", you will never feel it.
Sorry, but like I said, God does manifest himself today. It is a flat out lie to say believers repeatedly bash children from early childhood.
It is a lie to say that teaching a religious belief to a child is "bashing" the child. But if that were true, atheists would be bashing their children too because a child learns from both words and actions and atheists act like there is no God and speak like there is no God. And atheist is certainly a religion because you have beliefs taken merely by faith.
Teaching a child about God is no more bashing than teaching mathematics or reading is.
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Shyranis
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posted August 17, 2009 11:16 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 23:46, 17 Aug 2009.
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Mathematics and reading have more practical use, however, religion is comforting to people on a spiritual level.
You could say it's comfort for the soul.
It won't help you read signs if you get lost in a country that speaks your (or a similar enough) language, or calculate the interest savings on your next mortgage payment, but it will provide the solace that (many, though not all) people need that they are not alone in their actions.
They are all fundamentally different, but useful in different ways. (Practical and spiritual.) Some people don't feel a distinct need for the latter.
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Salamandre
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posted August 17, 2009 11:22 PM |
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ok, so why a muslim never believes in your god, why african tribes and low civilized areas have multiple "gods", usually related to their own life difficulty, ie god of hunt, god of the forest etc?
If your god could manifest by himself we would notice exceptions, but everything seems to be formated. How come you never felt the existence of Allah then? A muslim will have exactly the same arguments as yours.
Ah, true, you weren't told that Allah is the great, but ...God.
Religion is bashing because (as I said previously) there is not a single proof that it deserve to anything and makes you a better/wiser person. I would have nothing against a revelation of God spirit to a child, but becoming from God side, not from parents.
On the other side, there are enough statistics which show that a child who never learn to read will have difficulties to get a decent life. So, there is no bashing to force a child to get the tool which will allow him to have his own vision of the world, it is bashing to force him to think that religion is the tool because it is a prefabricated vision.
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