|
| Thread: communism, beyond theory |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
|
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
|
posted July 21, 2009 12:03 PM |
|
Edited by bixie at 12:03, 21 Jul 2009.
|
communism, beyond theory
reading Marx's works, I've been thinking.
Can Marx's ideal of communism (Not lenin's, stalins or anyone elses) truly work beyond the theory of it?
edit: NO QUOTING!
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 06:49 PM |
|
|
|
Darkshadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 07:00 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Can Marx's ideal of communism
Sadly nobody understands that and that's where the whole idea falls 
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 07:14 PM |
|
|
|
Oh, I'm sure it can work. The question is only where and when.
|
|
Mamgaeater
Legendary Hero
Shroud, Flying, Trample, Haste
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 07:18 PM |
|
|
It doesn't work in real life because it values the ideal of the individual versus the ideals of the society.
it does work in theory but only with people who share the same ideals.
but then again almost every system operates perfectly under those conditions.
____________
Protection From Everything.
dota
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 07:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Oh, I'm sure it can work. The question is only where and when.
And why.
...and how.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 07:42 PM |
|
|
If we ever got into proper communism, then somebody wanted to go to another system(ex: capitalism) then that would be impossible due the world and its its shape.
Its the same reason we are stuck with the system we have today, the world is shaped as it is with the systems and it keeps healing itself away from rusting into dust(pardon the wordplay).
I think it will gain several steps the moment the public capitalist realize that their ever growing utopia of greed has stopped, the amount of money does not increase. Then we could look for Marx's answer.
So, yeah i think it will work. For the exact same reason our own system keeps itself from falling apart these days.
____________
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:19 PM |
|
|
it doesn't work. Nobody denies that.
Too idealistic.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:39 PM |
|
|
It's not only idealistic but the very idea goes against human nature. What communism tries to do is turn mankind into a calculated hive with little to no individualism, under the banner of something that some man viewed as freedom.
Ants are living in perfect communism, for instance. But they're a bit biologically different 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:43 PM |
|
|
Communism doesn't fail because it's too idealistic. It fails because it violates thermodynamics, and it goes against human nature.
Which are really aspects of the same thing.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:45 PM |
|
|
*reads Corribus's post*
Maybe that hivemind idea isn't so far from reality after all 
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:45 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It's not only idealistic but the very idea goes against human nature. What communism tries to do is turn mankind into a calculated hive with little to no individualism, under the banner of something that some man viewed as freedom.
It is freedom.
I mean how much freedom does a beggar have compared to a businessman? Really.
I mean what's freedom? The ability to WANT something? I think you must be ABLE to do it. After all, prisoners aren't really "free" are they?
Quote:
Ants are living in perfect communism, for instance. But they're a bit biologically different
No they aren't.
Have you ever wondered why they "are different"?
Simple. How can you be "the same" as ants when you totally reject it as 'against human nature'?
It's like rejecting food you never tasted before, saying "it tastes bad, I don't want it". How do you even know if you haven't tasted it? Well that's right, and you won't EVER taste it, since you keep telling yourself that.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:47 PM |
|
|
Any community on the planet within a free market'ish country could become a little communist bastion anytime they wanted if all the people in the community volunteered to it. So really, there's no need for a massive national change to experiment with it. If you and enough people want it, start a community and have it. Nobody is stopping you.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 10:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I mean what's freedom?
"The absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression." - Wikipedia.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:07 PM |
|
Edited by baklava at 23:10, 21 Jul 2009.
|
@Death
Please note you're only pointing out why we aren't free now. You didn't point out where's the freedom in communism.
We most certainly aren't free now. But we're far free-er than a century ago. Freedom is something incredibly complex. Complete freedom means anarchy, and imagine the planet in anarchy. It sounds great and I'm romantically a great supporter of anarchy as an ideal but it would technically be a disaster, especially if we were just plunged into it without further prior evolution and preparation.
So freedom to me, like people said about so many things, is a matter of evolution rather than revolution. Revolutions are there when we obviously get into a blind street - but they must be used only when there's nothing else to resort to, simply because there's a huge chance that a revolution leads into an even greater abyss.
Are you blaming me for not "tasting" a hive mind? I don't want to possess a hive mind. You know what that is? Inability to think with your own bloody head. Absolute loyalty to the Queen which controls every aspect of everyone's lives. Something I always fought against, and something I never viewed as freedom.
If something's biologically that way, well that's all nice and well, good for it. But I haven't spent ten million years evolving this mind just to try to turn us all into ants now.
Most of us don't really know how to use this mind and what to do with it, sure, but clicking "undo" isn't going to solve the problem.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Are you blaming me for not "tasting" a hive mind? I don't want to possess a hive mind. You know what that is? Inability to think with your own bloody head. Absolute loyalty to the Queen which controls every aspect of everyone's lives. Something I always fought against, and something I never viewed as freedom.
If something's biologically that way, well that's all nice and well, good for it. But I haven't spent ten million years evolving this mind just to try to turn us all into ants now.
Most of us don't really know how to use this mind and what to do with it, sure, but clicking "undo" isn't going to solve the problem.
This is kinda a different argument isn't it? Why can't people just be honest about it?
I don't know how you see them, but "it's against human nature" and "I don't want it/don't like it" are two different arguments, don't you think?
Besides, the reason people "don't want" it on the media/internet is because no one asks the beggars.
Freedom only exists for everyone when the opportunities are equal.
Quote:
Quote:
I mean what's freedom?
"The absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression." - Wikipedia.
Where's the "coercion" in a prison, assuming the guards don't touch you? You're just there UNABLE to get out, not that they beat you or something (in this example only).
These cops really mess up our freedom don't they?
Quote:
Any community on the planet within a free market'ish country could become a little communist bastion anytime they wanted if all the people in the community volunteered to it. So really, there's no need for a massive national change to experiment with it. If you and enough people want it, start a community and have it. Nobody is stopping you.
Easier said than done. Try to run a political campaign. Sounds so easy in words.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:24 PM |
|
|
Of course it's against human nature, and it's because of that, that I don't want it. It's as simple as that. What you're proposing is as biologically fitting as telling us to grow another pair of legs in order to run faster.
We can't bloody do that.
And as for beggars, they're present in every system. Ever. A beggar would, I think, infinitely prefer a bowl of soup over an ant's mind. And if you're claiming to know what's good for him better than he does, and instill that on him, well then we're not talking about freedom, are we?
That's as honest as it gets.
Evolve the system, give those people jobs and food instead of undoing everything and making a social experiment which ends up with millions of people starving (People know. People tried).
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:31 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Easier said than done. Try to run a political campaign. Sounds so easy in words.
You don't need to run for a political campaign. You just gather some like-minded comrades, settle in a community, and distribute the wealth accordingly. You are well within your rights to do that. The only difference is that since the country itself would be free market, your comrades could bail out anytime they wanted (since free market operates through persuasion) and in an actual communist regime, you're stuck with it (since it operates through force).
And of course there are a ton of beggars out there that would be very amiable towards communism. It's peculiar how if you support freedom, you're commonly and incorrectly accused of greed, but yet so many would-be welcomers of communism conveniently come from the bottom rungs of society. They couldn't possibly be motivated by material gain, could they? Surely it's just because they're allegedly enlightened.
____________
"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:44 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Where's the "coercion" in a prison, assuming the guards don't touch you?
Whenever you try to escape? Or how about whenever you're sent there?
What amazes me is that you, a citizen of the Eastern Bloc, could advocate such a thing. It's one thing to have people from the Western countries talk about something of which they have no understanding - but you really should know better.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
|
|
posted July 21, 2009 11:53 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Of course it's against human nature, and it's because of that, that I don't want it. It's as simple as that. What you're proposing is as biologically fitting as telling us to grow another pair of legs in order to run faster.
We can't bloody do that.
Nope it isn't.
We can bloody do that.
the thing is
We don't bloody want that.
actually that's not fair, correct would be
People in power don't bloody want that
and why would they? I mean if they ARE already in power (and thus, the stuff you see on TV, not the beggars), why would they want to share it with others?
Quote:
And as for beggars, they're present in every system. Ever.
Not in a good socialist system.
Quote:
You don't need to run for a political campaign. You just gather some like-minded comrades, settle in a community, and distribute the wealth accordingly. You are well within your rights to do that. The only difference is that since the country itself would be free market, your comrades could bail out anytime they wanted (since free market operates through persuasion) and in an actual communist regime, you're stuck with it (since it operates through force).
Funny, isn't what friends are already doing everyday?
Quote:
What amazes me is that you, a citizen of the Eastern Bloc, could advocate such a thing. It's one thing to have people from the Western countries talk about something of which they have no understanding - but you really should know better.
Now how exactly am I supposed to reply to this in any reasonable manner?
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
|
|
|
|
