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TheDeath
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posted November 03, 2009 03:38 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 15:39, 03 Nov 2009.
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Quote:
It is sad you don't believe peple are more valuable than birds.
It is sad that you believe people are more valuable than birds without reason. Respect has to be earned, not given.
You speciesist 
(for example, I would choose any animal over a rapist any day 24/7 when asked... )
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 03, 2009 03:44 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:48, 03 Nov 2009.
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This thread is a farce, with a few posts that are rare exceptions. JJ's post at the top of the (previous) page was one of those exceptions. Nice post, JJ.  But as you no doubt know, the person to whom it was directed isn't likely to actually try to understand it. In any case, it's worth pointing out that many Buddhists consider themselves atheists, and I'm sure that Elodin's laughable caricature of atheism would be offensive to them as well.
@Death
Quote:
It is sad that you believe people are more valuable than birds without reason. Respect has to be earned, not given.
See, the thing is, that this would be a nice philosophical point of discussion. I would be interested in discussing this with a Christian, as I'd be interested in the Christian point of view on the matter - what determines the value of life? In fact, I have had such discussion in the past with intelligent, thoughtful and openminded Christians who were as interested in learning about my viewpoint as I was in learning about theirs.
But to try to have a productive discussion on that topic with the likes of Elodin? HA!
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JollyJoker
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posted November 03, 2009 04:39 PM |
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Well, thanks for the flowers, Corribus. That post you speak of was not really directed to Elodin but more to those who may have been actually underway to accept a couple of these dishonesties and false claims and concoctions. I just tried to put a couple of things back into perspective.
On a sidenote, I doubt meanwhile that Elodin's faith is so strong he says it is. If you KNOW that it is going to rain in 3 hours, so you need to take an umbrella with you when you go out: do you go out of your way to explain people over and over and over again of how you can smell the rain when it comes, that your left hip hurts from the accident you had, and that the dog is stirring in a certain way? And then, when someone says, nah, it's not, my Grampa has this bullet from WW2 in his thigh and that hurts when it's going to rain and it's not hurting him now, will you start explaining how bullets suck in that business and so on?
Nah. You'll say simply, ok, I'm taking my umbrella with me, you can do what you want, no problem.
It's more like calling in the darkness - it's like he wanted to prove something, but more to himself.
Anyway, that's not my problem.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted November 03, 2009 08:39 PM |
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You spurious little toad, how dare you claim that your one god is superior to my gods. how dare you claim that I am a delusional for believing in multiple gods, you deserve to be kicked off the forum for that! read the CoC as it clearly says that religious insults are not to be permited so there!
Ah, it is sad you are presenting little but insults and misrepresentations for arguments. I never said you are delusional by the way.
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It's no personal attack but only the truth when I say that Elodin's posts are oozing un-Christian ill-will, dishonesty, false statements, quotes-out-of-context and twistings of phrasings with the only intention to PROVE OTHERS WRONG, and to hell with honesty and truth.
Your statement is totally untrue. I have been proving you wrong with facts. I have been presenting the truth.
Atheists do not get to define who is a Christian. The New Testament does that.
@ TheDeath
Yes, I admit I believe in human exceptionalism. God created humankind with a unique ability to fellowship with him. Man is unique on the earth and higher than the other creatures. Adam and Eve were to care for Eden, and mankind ultimately to care for the Earth. Dominion carries authority, responsibility, and accountability.
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But to try to have a productive discussion on that topic with the likes of Elodin? HA!
Yes, yes, you always insult me rather than addressing issues I have addressed. Nothing new there.
@JJ
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Nah. You'll say simply, ok, I'm taking my umbrella with me, you can do what you want, no problem.
It's more like calling in the darkness - it's like he wanted to prove something, but more to himself.
Nah, I have nothing to prove to myself. I've just been presenting the truth and refuting untruths while steadily being insulted by "the other side."
We haven't been discussing Grandma and Grandpa and pains in their knees or other body parts. I really can't say if Grandma or Grandpa are in pain other than observing things like if they groan or limp or complain about the pain.
I've been presenting actual facts about what the Bible says for instance, rather than letting you define who is a Christian and who is not.
Its more like you and I have been standing in front of a doppler radar screen with an approaching hurricane and I've been saying, "Look, JJ, See the rainbands about to reach us? Soon the rain will be upon us You'd better grab the spare umbrella out of the closet." And you've been saying, "Nonsense, there is no hurricane. In fact we have a drought in store. You were stupid to bring your umbrella and slicker suit."
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TheDeath
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posted November 03, 2009 09:25 PM |
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Yes, I admit I believe in human exceptionalism. God created humankind with a unique ability to fellowship with him. Man is unique on the earth and higher than the other creatures. Adam and Eve were to care for Eden, and mankind ultimately to care for the Earth. Dominion carries authority, responsibility, and accountability.
Here's the thing, I do not respect authorities without reason. That is, authorities have to earn it -- and since they are authorities in the FIRST place, that should pose no problem, right?
I don't see that with some humans.
It would be like a child respecting his parent if the parent abuses the child, only because the parent is "authority"? That doesn't cut it for me. Such parent does not deserve respect & authority, because he clearly can't handle the responsibility.
Authority is wielded by those who deserve it, not "just because they are that way". When humans use that excuse to do anything they please, I don't see why I should respect that at all.
You see, I don't respect God because he is God. I respect God because of his "qualities" (let's not get into that debate), not "just because he is God".
I also respect Jesus because of what kind of man he was (or God, if he was God himself), not "because he was Jesus". If he did something like torture people, this respect would vanish.
So again, humans do not deserve more respect for nothing. And seeing as how they torture animals and stuff (some anyway), I don't think that makes them worthy of any respect at all. If anything their lives are LESS important than that of animals, in this case.
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angelito
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posted November 04, 2009 02:56 PM |
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I've been presenting actual facts about what the Bible says for instance, rather than letting you define who is a Christian and who is not."
Here is your problem.
You do not present any facts, but passages out of a book...period. If you won't realize this "fact" anytime in the future, you will always have hard times with the "other side".
If the bible would be so clear and strict, I wonder why different kind of "christians" have different points of view to specific things, although they all are based on the bible.
I'm just talking about Catholics and Jehova's Witnessess for example.
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Elodin
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posted November 04, 2009 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I've been presenting actual facts about what the Bible says for instance, rather than letting you define who is a Christian and who is not."
Here is your problem.
You do not present any facts, but passages out of a book...period. If you won't realize this "fact" anytime in the future, you will always have hard times with the "other side".
The "fact" is who the Bible says is a Christian and who is not. Atheists don't get to define who is a Christian. That is defined by the New Testament.
Bible verses can't just mean anything. When Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and follow him it does not mean that his sheep eat chocoalte ice cream, go skydiving, and are all professional football players. If anyone says that is ther proper interpretation of the verse they are way out in left field.
It means Christians follow his teachings.
The verse that says anyone who hates does not know God it can't mean that anyone who hates knows God. Sorry, most of the Bible is very clear about what it means. Of course you should read the entire passage to kkep the verse in context.
Atheists don't get to define who is a Christian. The New Testament does that.
Quote:
Here is your problem.
Here is your problem. You are either deliberately lying or did not bother to read the entirety of the discussion or you have a reading comprehension problem.
Saying I don't present any facts and only Bible verses is false.
I haver presented the laws of thermodynamics that prove the universe is not eternal and could not come into existecne from absolute nothing without a cause. The uncaused cause, the first cause, had to be the eternal self-existant God.
In other discussions I have presented such things as the writings of the founding fathers as proof of what they meant in the Constitution. Or the Compacts and Constitutions of the colonies. Or scientific facts about a fetus having unique human DNA with cells that are multipllying and so is human life.
I present facts quite often. But some people don't have any interest in facts.
@TheDeath
Quote:
So again, humans do not deserve more respect for nothing. And seeing as how they torture animals and stuff (some anyway), I don't think that makes them worthy of any respect at all. If anything their lives are LESS important than that of animals, in this case.
Humans deserve more respect than animals because they are unique creations of God created higher than other creatures.
Now, I have no problem with punishing criminals or executing certain criminals. The human preditors have no place in society.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 04, 2009 04:00 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 16:03, 04 Nov 2009.
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I haver presented the laws of thermodynamics that prove...
You know, just because you throw around a lot of sciencey words doesn't mean you've actually said anything meaningful.
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TheDeath
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posted November 04, 2009 04:09 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 16:10, 04 Nov 2009.
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Humans deserve more respect than animals because they are unique creations of God created higher than other creatures.
How so? Is Satan/the devil/Lucifer/whatever "higher" and should be respected more than humans since he was an angel? Purely based on what he IS rather than what he DOES to deserve that?
If humans are higher than animals, surely they must also show noble behavior. I don't see that when they abuse animals. Respect and leadership is granted for those who have the authority to protect and help those weaker or under their command, not abuse them (like some humans do to animals). The latter is tyranny. 
@Corribus: I think the word you're looking for is TechnoBabble
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angelito
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posted November 04, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Quote:
Bible verses can't just mean anything. When Jesus said his sheep hear his voice and follow him it does not mean that his sheep eat chocoalte ice cream, go skydiving, and are all professional football players.
It could also mean he was lonesome too long and started talking with animals....
You know, it is like watching at a painting. Everybidy sees different things in it. And of course everybody has a different explanation about the motivation of the artist and what he wanted to express with that picture.
Why should it be different with a book?
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The verse that says anyone who hates does not know God it can't mean that anyone who hates knows God. Sorry, most of the Bible is very clear about what it means.
Lol...sometimes I really doubt your age.
This here is a pretty good example of they way you try to argue...the whole time.
Someone who studies mathematis in 10th grade says: "Maths is soo hard to learn and often sooo complicated!"
Your answer: "Hard and complicated?? What is so hard and complicated in 1+1=2 ???"
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Atheists don't get to define who is a Christian. The New Testament does that.
You really think if you repeat something 100 times it becomes more true?
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Saying I don't present any facts and only Bible verses is false.
I have yet to see any facts you present refering to Religion, Bible, God, Jesus, etc...
Only things I read from you to those topics are either personal opinions, bible verses or non related text.
But maybe I missed those things...any link?
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In other discussions I have presented such things as the writings of the founding fathers as proof of what they meant in the Constitution.
The founding fathers have nothing to so with the bible....
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I present facts quite often. But some people don't have any interest in facts.
As mentioned....no facts refering to the things I said above...
But again you just left out the main point of my post, which would be interesting to be answered by someone who really believes in God and the Bible. I will quote it again, so you can try to find an aswer if you like:
Quote:
If the bible would be so clear and strict, I wonder why different kind of "christians" have different points of view to specific things, although they all are based on the bible.
I'm just talking about Catholics and Jehova's Witnessess for example.
Just 1 easy point: Jehova's witnessess don't celebrate x-mas.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 04, 2009 06:26 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 21:41, 04 Nov 2009.
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Hey Angelito, I bet Elodin is pretty tired from fielding all these questions, so I thought I'd take the liberty of replying to your post for him. I'm going to do my best to present his point of view here, so bear with me.
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You know, it is like watching at a painting. Everybidy sees different things in it. And of course everybody has a different explanation about the motivation of the artist and what he wanted to express with that picture.
Why should it be different with a book?
You must have some gender confusion or a reading comprehension problem.
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Someone who studies mathematis in 10th grade says: "Maths is soo hard to learn and often sooo complicated!"
Your answer: "Hard and complicated?? What is so hard and complicated in 1+1=2 ???"
I've already proven that with thermodynamics.
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You really think if you repeat something 100 times it becomes more true?
LOL!!!! I have been proving you wrong with facts. The New Testament gets to determine what 100 times means, not Atheists. You have some gender confusion.
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I have yet to see any facts you present refering to Religion, Bible, God, Jesus, etc...
Only things I read from you to those topics are either personal opinions, bible verses or non related text.
But maybe I missed those things...any link?
More insults, eh? Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem. Or some gender confusion.
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The founding fathers have nothing to so with the bible....
America is the best country ever. It was Atheist tyrants who killed and raped millions of babies.
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If the bible would be so clear and strict, I wonder why different kind of "christians" have different points of view to specific things, although they all are based on the bible.
They all have a reading comprehension problem and gender confusion. 2+2=4. Oh and Jehovahs Witnesses are all Atheist tyrants.
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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 04, 2009 07:07 PM |
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you forgot whining to his mommy about how the wellbalanced and reasonable members of the forum are pointing out the massive logic holes in his argument.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2009 07:07 PM |
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Well, it's pretty obvious that this is a very cheap copy of the real thing. because you left out some key phrases. For example:
Sorry, Corribus, you must have a reading confusion or a gender comprehension problem.
Oh, and I'm sorry, but atheists don't get to put words in the mouth of a Christian, that does only the Bible.
And, oh, I'm sorry, but you sound like the atheist tyrants who raped 20 billion babies when presented with the thermodynamics of the fact that 2+2=4.
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Elodin
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posted November 04, 2009 10:12 PM |
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Ah, it seems I have destroyed all the arguments of certain atheists and anti-Christians and all they have left is attempts to insult and ridicule me.
Quote:
You know, it is like watching at a painting. Everybidy sees different things in it. And of course everybody has a different explanation about the motivation of the artist and what he wanted to express with that picture.
Why should it be different with a book?
Like I said, verses can't just mean anything. If you have difficuly with reading comprehension take a class.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
That verse can't mean that eating chocolate ice cream means you don't love God. Sorry.
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Atheists don't get to define who is a Christian. The New Testament does that.
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You really think if you repeat something 100 times it becomes more true?
No, I think that at some point you might understand that atheists don't get to determine the dogma of other religions. Jesus already defined who it is who is his. Atheists don't get to define who is a Christian.
Quote:
I have yet to see any facts you present refering to Religion, Bible, God, Jesus, etc...
Only things I read from you to those topics are either personal opinions, bible verses or non related text.
But maybe I missed those things...any link?
Sure I have. I have presented the fact that the laws of thermodynamics implies the need for a Creator.
I have shown that we have many thousands of historical manuscripts of the Bible (far more than of any other ancient document) and that we have the original words of the Bible to within 99.99% accuracy.
I have shown who the Bible says is a Christian. It is moronic to think atheists get to define who is a Christian rather than the New Testament defining who is a Christian.
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The founding fathers have nothing to so with the bible....
Your initial claim was I never presented any facts. I proved your statement was false.
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I'm just talking about Catholics and Jehova's Witnessess for example.
Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in the divinity of Jesus (according to my understanding of their teachings) and so are not Christians according to the words of Jesus.
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Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he [Jehovah/Yahweh], ye shall die in your sins.
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Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Joh 20:30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
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Just 1 easy point: Jehova's witnessess don't celebrate x-mas.
Man made tradition should be cast aside if it conflicts with Biblical teachings. The New Testament does not forbid worshiping on on particualar day. The angels, wise men, and shepherds all acknowledged the birth of Christ. Everyone is free to celebrate an observance of the birth of Christ or not to do so. It is not forbidden or commanded.
The Bible says to celebrate the wondrous works of God and certainly God chosing to exist as a aman is a part of his wondrous work of salvation so Christmas is quite appropriate to celebrate.
@Corribus
Yes, yes you seem to follow Saul Alinsky who said just ridicule your opponent instead of addressing his points.
@Bixie and JJ
See above about Alinsky.
It is unfortunate that some on the other side have seemingly totally abandoned any pretence of debate.
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Doomforge
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posted November 04, 2009 10:27 PM |
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You see Elodin. They (atheists) do have a point. I'm a theist AND a Christian, so you can't call me anti-Christian or whatever. You say Christ defined who is a Christian. This is true. But, you have to learn to separate ideal concept from the reality. An average Christian doesn't give a damn about Christ's teachings and isn't a good person according to what Christ taught. Thus, atheists can express such feelings because that's how it seems.
See, to give you a different example, one of the followers of Pol-Pot tried to explain that Khmer Rouge were "mistunderstood" and that the members "weren't loyal to the doctrine" and that the massacres were "a mistake". And clearly their ideology defined who is a Khmer Rouge and who is not.
So, the question here would be: Should we consider Khmer Rouge organization good, and NOT a crime organization BECAUSE of those words? It was still considered a crime faction by many Nations, also your US. Were they "wrong", just as you claim the atheists are?
Common sense still says that if majority of Khmer Rouge activists were murderers, the whole organization is something to be condemned. The same logic applies here: Most Christians aren't good, thus, Christianity isn't really that awesome.
While I don't like such generalizations, I'm not surprised or offended by that. It's logical to some extent. Nothing prevents you from being a good Christian despite those claims anyway.
I guess you have to be open minded to be one, though 
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Elodin
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posted November 04, 2009 10:36 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:39, 04 Nov 2009.
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There is a difference between claiming to be a Christian and being one. Jesus taught that his sheep follow him. No one is perfect but a Christian will try to follow the teachings of Christ. And the Bible says no Christian will hate or murder.
People who do not try to follow the teachings of Christ are not Christians according to Jesus.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings....
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: ......
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Edit: Oh, I am not saying YOU are not a Christian. I am saying there are those (wolves and otherwise) who claim to one who are not. False brethern as mentioned in the New Testament.
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Doomforge
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posted November 04, 2009 10:47 PM |
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All I'm trying to say is that you should understand the argument atheists use: it's not weak: it has its points and logic.
And while for Christians it may be weak, we shouldn't forget we are not alone in this world with our beliefs and that they are not superior to other beliefs or lack of them.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 04, 2009 11:11 PM |
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Ah, it seems I have destroyed all the arguments of certain atheists and anti-Christians and all they have left is attempts to insult and ridicule me.
What do you expect with pearls like that:
I have presented the fact that the laws of thermodynamics implies the need for a Creator.
It seems that the implication you present as a fact has been overlooked by everyone else so far. One of the facts you seem to be oblivious to is the simple flaw that the laws of thermodynamics are valid only for closed systems.
Ah, but I told you that already. So... it seems futile.
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It is unfortunate that some on the other side have seemingly totally abandoned any pretence of debate.
What is even more unfortunate is the fact that your side never even maintained even a pretence. Of course, religion in general and Christianity specifically isn't famous for DEBATE, but for DOGMA
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Azagal
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Smooth Snake
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posted November 04, 2009 11:17 PM |
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I wonder why different kind of "christians" have different points of view to specific things, although they all are based on the bible.
No not all christians points of view on specific things are based on the bible. The bible may be the fundamental book in Christianity but that doesn't mean every christian believes the nonsense that's in there. It's not even about picking the bits you like vs. the ones that tell you to shave or go to hell, it's about being a rational (there is no paradox in the sentence btw).
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted November 04, 2009 11:42 PM |
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what made christians exempt from being brought up on their own values?
What makes you have any more right to judge your religion as higher than anybody else?
Oh, so I suppose it's only a few bad people who are giving the christians a bad name?
you see, I've noticed a very definate pattern with your arguments. Any thing you are (assuming christian, american and capitalist are what you really are) is consider faultless, anyone who is raised to counteract this was really a wolf in sheeps clothing, and can be refered back to ancient texts or works or literature in order to prove it, whilst everyone else (per example, atheist, polytheist, communist, etc etc) you continually damn as unforgivable monsters, pointing out all those who have done wrong in the name of the cause as prime examples and thus conclude that all of them are like that.
would you consider my universities communist society to be a threat to world peace, equality and human rights? they barely have 30 members, and they mostly sit around, discussing half-thought out utopian ideals for their future societies, how are they dangerous?!
would you consider my friend who I have provided links for, a highly moral and righteous Atheist, to be in the same league as pol pot or stalin? he's studying at machester uni, doing well, regularly helps out at charity events, and supports free speach with his utmost, how is he dangerous?!
and now you are going to pull out your most over used trick in your poultry repitour, the old "Oh, their just exceptions, really communists/atheists are hate-filled warmongering tyrants who want to stamp of human rights!" stop being such a lousy hypocrite and learn to roll with the punches.
You see, I am getting a definate air of undiserving elitism from you! the very same snobbery that you claim to be stamping out. its the whole attitude of "What I believe in is right, why, becuase my holy book says so and all others are idiots," or "What I believe in is right, why, because I have a cold war mentality and am probably related to senator McCarthy." there is no escaping it, and that is that I am angry at, because you think your better than the rest of us because you signed with a particular club! more importantly, you claim that we are the ones in the wrong by commenting on our education! Britain is one of the best educated countries in the world, next to sweden, norway, scandinavia, Japan and various others (which I have forgotten, it's been ages since I have done human geography). all these talks about how we need to take comprehension classes and need psychological help. BE UPFRONT ABOUT IT, You mean Bible classes, capitalism 101, a degree in the university of smugness and a full frontal lobotomy!
now your going to whine about how insults are being chucked left right and centre at you, bemoaning that the moderators are picking on you, becoming the little schoolboy who kicks people in the shins and cries to teacher when he gets his just deserts, then to his parents to sue the school out of business when the teacher says that you go what you deserve. picking out all the bad things I have said because of the fact that you can't find anything else to argue with. Would it be better is the whole forum just agreed with you so that you could shut up and bother someone else?!
Everyone here is sick of you. I'm sick, the mods are sick, the intellectuals, the clowns, the tinkers, the tailors, the candlestick makers. even our pet sparrow, mister tweetums, is sick of you're moaning and your pointless arguments. and considering that half this post is filled with honest comments about your attitude, your going to ignore whats important and choose to belittle me to make yourself feel big.
that ok, Eli-kins?
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