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JollyJoker
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posted March 17, 2010 08:29 PM |
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Of course another problem is that there are so many people who not only feel called upon to be god's lawyer, but his/her spokesperson and an expert in his/her thoughts, attitude and whole being as well. Especially when you consider how many there are and how profoundly their opinions differ.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 17, 2010 08:41 PM |
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Of course another problem is that there are so many people who not only feel called upon to be god's lawyer, but his/her spokesperson and an expert in his/her thoughts, attitude and whole being as well. Especially when you consider how many there are and how profoundly their opinions differ.
I agree.
we just need to wait until mister Elodin from on high comes and says "Nope, they're all wrong but me!"
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 17, 2010 10:07 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 22:09, 17 Mar 2010.
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Of course another problem is that there are so many people who not only feel called upon to be god's lawyer, but his/her spokesperson and an expert in his/her thoughts, attitude and whole being as well. Especially when you consider how many there are and how profoundly their opinions differ.
I'm not a "lawyer for God." But I do correct the lies Christian bashers love to tell.
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whose's insulting whom, now?
How is it insulting to say you have demonstrated no sound reasoning? You on the other hand called me names like a 5 year old on a playground.
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Why?
Why are we not told everything? Why are we not told this possibly vital information about how to be better christians? what if that point Jesus came out of the closet? what if he sat down with peter and said "I wish I knew how to quit you!"?
We were told waht the Spirit inspired the writers to record. It is idiotic to think that every word he said to them should have been recorded. The Bible is quite large enough as it is.
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Also, do you have any other books apart from the bible and whatever crap the young earth creationists have spewed out?
I'm not a young earth creationist and I don't read "crap." Well, I did read Dawkin's books and they were pretty much "crap."
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fine, you claim first cause was god, and I claim it's a monkey having an accident trying to brew beer, as both have exactly the same amount of logical, rational evidence to prove it.
Well, in my opinion it is idiotic to claim the universe is the result of a monkey having an accident.
All material things (a monkey is a material thing) have to have a cauae. But feel free to reject science and cling to your illogical beliefs.
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also, I wasn't talking about first cause, I was talking about the acts of the bible. If the plague of frogs, the parting of the red sea, the destruction of jericho, was all done by an alien, rather than god, would you believe in that alien. and also, apart from the bible and other religious texts, what's to say that Jesus wasn't simply a good, moral man? or that he performed his miracles with alien technology
How many times are you going to ask the same question? Jesus was either God or a liar. He could not have been a good man if he was nnot God because he would have lied about being God.
It is rather stupid to think that aliens would free a group of nomads and follow therm around in the wilderness for 40 years and then help them conquer Caanan.
And I have the Spirit of God. I know Jesus is Lord.
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"filled with his spirit" (vaguely homosexual there, but lets carry on)
See, comments like that prove you have no interest in spiritual matters.
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no, not sitting down and asking him for him to give people his omnibenevolence, but sitting down, with a cup of tea (hypothetical tea, I don't think god drinks earl grey) have a decent conversation with him, rather than worship him. Treat him as a human being and ask him a question that he answers. engage his brain in coming up with an answer!
Why do you think that can't both worship God and be his friend? God is the Spirit who created everything and also the man Jesus Christ who lived a fully human life.
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"let a man who lies with another man be stoned" (paraphasing, please put in correct verse)
what if two men were tired, there was nowhere else to sleep apart from a single bed, and they slept there? Also, if god was a woman, then she could get away with it, because the passage is about men, not women. obviously god doesn't mind lesbians.
Actually I can quote you verses that specificly mention lesbians. The only sex that the Bible says is not sin is between a husband and wife.
People cheating on their spouses were stoned too.
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he's not omnibenevolent then, is he.
1) he doesn't love us because of the fact that some men f**k up.
2) he's getting his sone to judge the world and only letting his followers in, rather than everyone.
3) if he was omnibenevolent, as christians had often said, then he would love and forgive everyone.
God is good. That does not mean he is a drooling old Grandpa about to fall off his throne and laughing at every sin people commit. God shows love and mercy. God is also the judge of the world and will hold men accountable for their deeds.
1) God loves all people.
2) The Son of God is God existing as a man. God is both God and man is is well qualified to be our judge.
3) God loves everyone and is willing to receive anyone who is willing to repent and obey him.
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and what if the bible is wrong or you're requirements for a creator is wrong? What if Allah is a liar to test the faith of Muhammad, like God tested Lot by doing far, far worse to him.
Sorry, the true and living God is not a liar. And have his Spirit in me. My human spirit, his Spirit, and his Word witness to me.
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and what if jesus is not the lord, and buddha is the one who has truly assended? what if the spirit of god you recieved was simply a delusion?
free you're mind, man!
It is not my mind that need to be freed. Sorry, I have the Spirit of Jesus living in me. I know he is Lord.
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What if Jesus was Horus reincarnated, or that the bible was just trying to resell the ancient egyptian religion (there are alot of similarities!).
Both statemenst are idiotic. Jesus fulfilled a number of prophecies. And no, Jesus and Horus are not similar, that is a lie that has been soundly debunked.
Jesus and pagan gods compared
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"filled with his spirit" (vaguely homosexual there, but lets carry on)
What an idiotic comment, and it shows you heart.
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Truth seeking is asking questions, you numpty! the evidence of god is not, "all around us", the evidence of nature, evolution, science and wonderfully, wonderfully, simple human nature is all around us, not god. the tree outside my window is not evidence of god, it is evidence that there was a seed at one time and it grew into a tree, not that god placed a tree into the ground.
It is stupid to think tha tthe material world came from material things. That is in opposition to known science.
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in this world there is no such thing as an absolute, and, to sound completely hypocritical for the purposes of dramatic effect, that is the absolute truth!!
Sorry, 2 + 3 = 5 and the sun is a star, the earth is a planet. Absolute truth exists.
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right, whilst you open you're eyes to you're god and you're god alone, due to "Revelations", you ignore all the other possiblities around you, all the wonderous cultures and ideas of other peoples religion. You seal yourself in bastion of arrogance and focus you're attention skyward to a deity that might not exist and you think.
I'm not the arrogant one. I've done quite a bit of research into other religions. A man is a pagan "teacher" was once a close friend of mine and we've had many discussions over the years. He was not a Christian basher.
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No, he only loves them if they renounce that sin!
Sorry, tht is untrue.
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Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
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well, considering he blamed Eve for the whole apple debacle "And you shall feel pain in child birth athousand fold", and quite alot of stuff after that, yes, I think he does.
Actually both Eve and Adam are blamed. You shoul learn how to read better. Furthur, Eve was deceived, but Adam had the greater sin becasue he sinned knowing "with his eyes open." He rebelled against God.
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no, no it does not!
Sure it does. You call God "arch conservative" because he made rules. But that means you are making rules. That seems hypocritical.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 17, 2010 11:14 PM |
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Edited by bixie at 23:16, 17 Mar 2010.
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Of course another problem is that there are so many people who not only feel called upon to be god's lawyer, but his/her spokesperson and an expert in his/her thoughts, attitude and whole being as well. Especially when you consider how many there are and how profoundly their opinions differ.
I'm not a "lawyer for God." But I do correct the lies Christian bashers love to tell.
no, you're just he PR man
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whose's insulting whom, now?
How is it insulting to say you have demonstrated no sound reasoning? You on the other hand called me names like a 5 year old on a playground.
oh cry me a bloody river!
calling someone names can be easily brushed off. Saying someone has no sound reasoning falls under defamation of character, and I could get you prosecuted for it.
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Why?
Why are we not told everything? Why are we not told this possibly vital information about how to be better christians? what if that point Jesus came out of the closet? what if he sat down with peter and said "I wish I knew how to quit you!"?
We were told waht the Spirit inspired the writers to record. It is idiotic to think that every word he said to them should have been recorded. The Bible is quite large enough as it is.
not really, not compared to a decent sized academic piece, not compared to lord of the rings. that bit, where he teaches them something, where he counters their misunderstanding, that's vital! and they left it out?!
also, what the spirit inspired the writers to record shows nothing but bias and perversion of the truth on the part of the writers.
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Also, do you have any other books apart from the bible and whatever crap the young earth creationists have spewed out?
I'm not a young earth creationist and I don't read "crap." Well, I did read Dawkin's books and they were pretty much "crap."
that's because you're a narrowminded little troll who can't take opposition!
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fine, you claim first cause was god, and I claim it's a monkey having an accident trying to brew beer, as both have exactly the same amount of logical, rational evidence to prove it.
Well, in my opinion it is idiotic to claim the universe is the result of a monkey having an accident.
All material things (a monkey is a material thing) have to have a cauae. But feel free to reject science and cling to your illogical beliefs.
as you have done
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also, I wasn't talking about first cause, I was talking about the acts of the bible. If the plague of frogs, the parting of the red sea, the destruction of jericho, was all done by an alien, rather than god, would you believe in that alien. and also, apart from the bible and other religious texts, what's to say that Jesus wasn't simply a good, moral man? or that he performed his miracles with alien technology
How many times are you going to ask the same question? Jesus was either God or a liar. He could not have been a good man if he was nnot God because he would have lied about being God.
It is rather stupid to think that aliens would free a group of nomads and follow therm around in the wilderness for 40 years and then help them conquer Caanan.
And I have the Spirit of God. I know Jesus is Lord.
no such things as absolutes!
he could not have been a good man unless A) he was god and B) he didn't lie... you have a really depressing view of humanity, don't you?
Hey, I'm going to use the same cop out people have used agianst me. "they're aliens, they move in mysterious ways, who are we to question their logic!"
oh and god wants his gin back!
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"filled with his spirit" (vaguely homosexual there, but lets carry on)
See, comments like that prove you have no interest in spiritual matters.
no, it's just you say such an ambigously gay sentence and then claim it's a sin.
freudian slip, I presume.
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no, not sitting down and asking him for him to give people his omnibenevolence, but sitting down, with a cup of tea (hypothetical tea, I don't think god drinks earl grey) have a decent conversation with him, rather than worship him. Treat him as a human being and ask him a question that he answers. engage his brain in coming up with an answer!
Why do you think that can't both worship God and be his friend? God is the Spirit who created everything and also the man Jesus Christ who lived a fully human life.
Worship implies adoration, implying hierarchy. Friend implies compassion, implying equal status. unless "friendship" is brown nosing you're way into heaven.
and also, really? you're going to put god down to everything...
Kent hovind said the same thing and he's in for fraud with a ten year sentence!
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"let a man who lies with another man be stoned" (paraphasing, please put in correct verse)
what if two men were tired, there was nowhere else to sleep apart from a single bed, and they slept there? Also, if god was a woman, then she could get away with it, because the passage is about men, not women. obviously god doesn't mind lesbians.
Actually I can quote you verses that specificly mention lesbians. The only sex that the Bible says is not sin is between a husband and wife.
People cheating on their spouses were stoned too.
Fair enough, I can't argue with that, no matter how bigotted it might be.
Also, if god is a genderless spirit, he's a transexual, and christians hate transexuals!
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he's not omnibenevolent then, is he.
1) he doesn't love us because of the fact that some men f**k up.
2) he's getting his sone to judge the world and only letting his followers in, rather than everyone.
3) if he was omnibenevolent, as christians had often said, then he would love and forgive everyone.
God is good. That does not mean he is a drooling old Grandpa about to fall off his throne and laughing at every sin people commit. God shows love and mercy. God is also the judge of the world and will hold men accountable for their deeds.
1) God loves all people.
2) The Son of God is God existing as a man. God is both God and man is is well qualified to be our judge.
3) God loves everyone and is willing to receive anyone who is willing to repent and obey him.
1) I love you
2) I love you, but I'm going to judge you to see if you're worthy of my love.
3) I love you, but I'm only going to recieve you if you do exactly as I say and repent all the moments of individuality you've ever had.
started off so well, but it goes a bit sour towards the end.
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and what if the bible is wrong or you're requirements for a creator is wrong? What if Allah is a liar to test the faith of Muhammad, like God tested Lot by doing far, far worse to him.
Sorry, the true and living God is not a liar. And have his Spirit in me. My human spirit, his Spirit, and his Word witness to me.
How do you know he's not a liar? is that what he's told you? the first sign of a liar is denial, he could have been lying to you, elodin, and cheating with someone else!
"his spirit in me" (oh, young gay love)
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and what if jesus is not the lord, and buddha is the one who has truly assended? what if the spirit of god you recieved was simply a delusion?
free you're mind, man!
It is not my mind that need to be freed. Sorry, I have the Spirit of Jesus living in me. I know he is Lord.
yes it is. and you can do it. Accept jesus as you're lord, but experiment with other religions. as long as you've converted, according to you're doctorine, you get into heaven.
"I have the spirit of jesus living in me. I know he is lord." (ok, first bit has already been touched on, the second sounds like a badly translated domination anime. is there something you're not telling us, Elodin?  )
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What if Jesus was Horus reincarnated, or that the bible was just trying to resell the ancient egyptian religion (there are alot of similarities!).
Both statemenst are idiotic. Jesus fulfilled a number of prophecies. And no, Jesus and Horus are not similar, that is a lie that has been soundly debunked.
Jesus and pagan gods compared
Thanks for linking a useless apologetics site, further proving my point you can't have an intellectual debate without finding factually incorrect sites and presenting them as proof.
further more, I've studied egyptian mythology, and there is alot of similarities. one god created everything, people getting resurrected, a brother killing another brother, a serpent as the big bad and a tempter. If I was doing a pointless theology degree, I could do a disatation on how everything in the bible is taken from other religions before hand, and probably receive death threats from people like you!
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"filled with his spirit" (vaguely homosexual there, but lets carry on)
What an idiotic comment, and it shows you heart.
no it isn't
and no it doesn't. open heart surgery does that.
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Truth seeking is asking questions, you numpty! the evidence of god is not, "all around us", the evidence of nature, evolution, science and wonderfully, wonderfully, simple human nature is all around us, not god. the tree outside my window is not evidence of god, it is evidence that there was a seed at one time and it grew into a tree, not that god placed a tree into the ground.
It is stupid to think tha tthe material world came from material things. That is in opposition to known science.
no, it is science. Science is the study of material things, things that can be tested, repeated and observed. since god is an engematic spirit floating about in somewhere beyond the cosmos, then we cannot proof he exists. he is not first cause, he is not the creator or the destroyer, he is nothing until he shows himself and proves to us. then we will fit him into modern science!
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in this world there is no such thing as an absolute, and, to sound completely hypocritical for the purposes of dramatic effect, that is the absolute truth!!
Sorry, 2 + 3 = 5 and the sun is a star, the earth is a planet. Absolute truth exists.
no, it does not. 2, 3 and 5 are just symbols, and it's our interpretation of those symbols that means the numbers and make that equation. The sun is a star and the earht is a planet, and it is our interpretation of what a star and a planet is that means we categorise the earth and the sun in that way.
by you're logic, I could say that the bible is just a story and absolute truth exists, but again, that would be wrong as it is interpreted differently by different people.
the nature of science is that there is no absolution. we are just getting closer and closer to the truth. so far, we are unsure of whether there is life on other planets, but a couple of decades later, we might know that life exists on other worlds, but does it on others?
If science was run by absolutes, we would never get anywhere, we would have stuck with "yep, gods exists, the worlds flat, the sun revolves arounds us and demons cause disease." Absolutes are the death of knowledge, Ideas and progress as they inhibit the mind by they're narrow categorisations.
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right, whilst you open you're eyes to you're god and you're god alone, due to "Revelations", you ignore all the other possiblities around you, all the wonderous cultures and ideas of other peoples religion. You seal yourself in bastion of arrogance and focus you're attention skyward to a deity that might not exist and you think.
I'm not the arrogant one. I've done quite a bit of research into other religions. A man is a pagan "teacher" was once a close friend of mine and we've had many discussions over the years. He was not a Christian basher.
and good for him (if he exists).
but you're ademence in not considering the other possiblities in terms of religion will be you're downfall.
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No, he only loves them if they renounce that sin!
Sorry, tht is untrue.
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Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
yeah, I love the way he extends his love to the "Ungodly". like how white slavers extended their love to the black slaves!  
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well, considering he blamed Eve for the whole apple debacle "And you shall feel pain in child birth athousand fold", and quite alot of stuff after that, yes, I think he does.
Actually both Eve and Adam are blamed. You shoul learn how to read better. Furthur, Eve was deceived, but Adam had the greater sin becasue he sinned knowing "with his eyes open." He rebelled against God.
no, he chose knowledge over innocence. he no more rebelled against god than he allied with the flying spaghetti monster.
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no, no it does not!
Sure it does. You call God "arch conservative" because he made rules. But that means you are making rules. That seems hypocritical.
well, look here, I would have thought you would have flocked to an arch conservative, mister "Loony libs".
if you are ignoring possiblity to live in absolute, then I pity you. I admire you're conviction, but I pity you. you're belief of "Jesus is the lord," and "Homosexuality is a sin" is hurting you're knowledge and understanding of the world around you.
if you believe the creation story, then I say that Eve was right in what she did, and she was right to tempt adam. Knowledge is the key to our understanding, and if means going against some bronze age scripture about an almighty imaginary friends, then so be it. to remain in innocence and absolutes is to remain in ignorance and bigotry, and I will rather live outside the garden of eden, eeking my living out by eating worms, but understanding, and knowing, than live in blissful ignorance. the garden of eden reminds me of the lotus eaters on the odyssey.
I see human development in terms of religion like growing up.
1) we start off as a child, we do everything our parents (god(s)) tells us, for fear of punishment, in the belief that they love us.
2) we start mature and begin to question our parents (god(s)) intentions and advice. we still trust them, but we begin to question.
3) we reject our parents (god(s)) and strike out on our own, determined to prove we don't need them. we feel we have become competent enough to do it on our own.
4) we develop into equals to our parents (god(s)) and are able to understand and talk to them as adults.
5) we become gods ourselves.
Like Marx's original ideals for communism, this is only a theory, there are lots of exceptions, and it might never come to pass. in terms of attitudes and so on, this is, I feel, a pretty accurate analogy. of course, I could be wrong, but I like to think that this could happen.
meh, call me an optimist.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 18, 2010 09:29 AM |
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When will you finally accept, that extremists can't get enlightened by arguments.
No matter if islamic or christian extremists, they all lost their objective observation power when their extremistic attitude started.
It is senseless to talk to them.
Or do you think you have any chance to get reasonable and serious answer from guys like Ahmedinedschad?
So why then expect some from christian extremists then?
Use your time for better things and let those, who like to stay in the middle ages do like they wish.
I am glad I live in a modern country where religion and government is strictly parted. Otherwise, I would probably commit suicide to prevent myself and my family from living and thinking the way those extremists do. 
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 18, 2010 09:55 AM |
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why make an exception?
He makes himself the exception.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted March 18, 2010 12:46 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 12:49, 18 Mar 2010.
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When will you finally accept, that extremists can't get enlightened by arguments.
Indeed. Christian basher extremists seem to be uninterested in and incapable of honest discussion about spiritual matters. Their interest is only in lying about Christianity. They also have a "pack" mentality and stick together. No matter what lies the other Christian basher is telling usually all the other Christian bsshers stand by him. They are uninterested in truth and seem to be incapable of receiveing truth. Probably because they have shut their eyes and stopped up their ears. Having no desire for truth, the truth will never be found by thlem and they will remain in darkness by their own choice.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 18, 2010 02:27 PM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 14:29, 18 Mar 2010.
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JollyJoker,
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JollyJoker, both those who state and those who deny existence of something are equally responsible for providing a proof or reasonable arguments.
I don't see any reasoning for that position - it's illogical as well: it makes no sense to even ACKNOWLEDGE something, when people can give no reason why it should exist.
I try to establish this simple thing over a couple of pages now.
You know there are books, people who claim to have experienced various things, clinical deaths and so on. Theses are enough reasons to consider notions of soul and god.
The Bible says a lot of things about God, which raises demands on reasons. However, it also says many things about Earth, which makes it falsifiable to some extent (meaning it may be proven wrong if some of these things are wrong).
Elodin
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Atheists must ignorre current observatinos and the laws of thermodynamics to cling to their irrational position.
Please repeat this three more times. Repeating one sentence two times isn't enough to convince me.  I've read a statement that creation of life from non-living matter contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That statements is obviously wrong, as I have studied thermodynamics.
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Furthur, almost all peopole who have ever lived have been theists. That leaves the atheist position even more in doubt.
Atheism grew with advance of science, so it's quite the opposite.
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Because prior to the observations that proved the universe had a beginning atheists argued the universe was eternal.
Yes, an eternal universe is more convenient for atheism, but not necessary at all.
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We know that all things material need a cause.
Nope. Why would it?
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Furthur, Eve was deceived, but Adam had the greater sin becasue he sinned knowing "with his eyes open." He rebelled against God.
That's interesting. Do you mean Adam's decision wasn't effected by Satan? And did Eva know about the consequences of eating that apple?
Now here's a question:
If God loves all men, why does he let Satan get them in many cases? Does he love Satan and hell creatures much more?
It's usually said that he gives men a choice and they choose between hell and heaven with their deeds, but why can't men choose from heaven and hell directly, like saying to God after death: "I wanna go to Heaven!". That would sound much more like a real choice.
bixie,
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the nature of science is that there is no absolution. we are just getting closer and closer to the truth.
Mathematical facts are absolute truth. Other things aren't.
2 + 3 = 5 is actually absolute truth. Symbols don't matter. 2, 3 and 5 can be defined without these symbols.
To illustrate it more clearly: "natural numbers axioms, all needed definitions => 2 + 3 = 5" is absolute truth.
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I see human development in terms of religion like growing up.
1) we start off as a child, we do everything our parents (god(s)) tells us, for fear of punishment, in the belief that they love us.
2) we start mature and begin to question our parents (god(s)) intentions and advice. we still trust them, but we begin to question.
3) we reject our parents (god(s)) and strike out on our own, determined to prove we don't need them. we feel we have become competent enough to do it on our own.
4) we develop into equals to our parents (god(s)) and are able to understand and talk to them as adults.
5) we become gods ourselves.
I agree on this!
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2010 02:39 PM |
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JollyJoker,
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JollyJoker, both those who state and those who deny existence of something are equally responsible for providing a proof or reasonable arguments.
I don't see any reasoning for that position - it's illogical as well: it makes no sense to even ACKNOWLEDGE something, when people can give no reason why it should exist.
I try to establish this simple thing over a couple of pages now.
You know there are books, people who claim to have experienced various things, clinical deaths and so on. Theses are enough reasons to consider notions of soul and god.
The Bible says a lot of things about God, which raises demands on reasons. However, it also says many things about Earth, which makes it falsifiable to some extent (meaning it may be proven wrong if some of these things are wrong).
It's reason to to consider them, but not necessarily notions about soul or god. The Bible says a lot of things, but other religions have their holy or wise books as well, and there is no reason whatsoever per se, why one should be preferred over the other.
Claims are claims, and that's that.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 18, 2010 02:47 PM |
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A new challenger has entered the ring!
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the nature of science is that there is no absolution. we are just getting closer and closer to the truth.
Mathematical facts are absolute truth. Other things aren't.
2 + 3 = 5 is actually absolute truth. Symbols don't matter. 2, 3 and 5 can be defined without these symbols.
To illustrate it more clearly: "natural numbers axioms, all needed definitions => 2 + 3 = 5" is absolute truth.
yes, but if you showed those symbols to a cave man... he wouldn't know what they mean. he would see some squiggles on a peice of paper before clubbing you around the head.
This is the fundemental core of language and how written language developed. We gave meaning to symbols, as done with letters, numbers and punctuation. a pre-language cave man would see it as "some plus more some equale more than more some." we developed the idea of mathematics from the mesopatamians, which was the first civilisation.
This is getting into an area that I cannot do justice to. this is going back into pre-mesopatamian times, when we were just understanding the concepts of language. archeologists have found many possiblities over what could be the earliest form of langauge, and some civilisations continue to function for hundreds of years without getting past 4, resorting to more general examples.
Whilst we assume that 2 and 3 together make 5, we might have thought differently a while back.
I will give you that mathematics is one of the few places where we can allow ourselves absolute truths, but at the same time, it's all about putting meaning to symbols.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2010 03:10 PM |
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What do you mean, "absolute truths". Truths in what sense? Mathematics is a separate universe, based on a few axioms, with everything, every conclusion, every proof based on them. It's a language as well that excatly and precisely describes certain things. As a language, mathematics are great for describing the world we live in and the rules it follows, but I'm really unwilling to associate it with the word "truth". It's consistent, certainly. But a truth?
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 18, 2010 04:14 PM |
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What do you mean, "absolute truths". Truths in what sense? Mathematics is a separate universe, based on a few axioms, with everything, every conclusion, every proof based on them. It's a language as well that excatly and precisely describes certain things. As a language, mathematics are great for describing the world we live in and the rules it follows, but I'm really unwilling to associate it with the word "truth". It's consistent, certainly. But a truth?
why didn't I say that?!
TOO MUCH DOOM PATROl!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 18, 2010 04:16 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:30, 18 Mar 2010.
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Atheists must ignorre current observatinos and the laws of thermodynamics to cling to their irrational position.
Please repeat this three more times. Repeating one sentence two times isn't enough to convince me. I've read a statement that creation of life from non-living matter contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That statements is obviously wrong, as I have studied thermodynamics.
Sorry, I'm not the one who said that "creation of life from non-living matter contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics." To my recollection a non-Christian said that and he was trying to put words in my mouth, which anti-Christians often do.
If you are going to quote me as saying something link to where I wrote it.
The laws of thermodynamics have nothing to do with life, at least not directly. I have explained how the laws of thermodynamics is incompatable with atheism a number of times. Please go back and read my previous posts in this thread and then link to any posts you have questions about.
It is impossible that the universe is eternal based on current observations from Hubble and the COBE sattelite as well as the laws of thermodynamics. It is impossible that the universe came to be from absolute nothing with no cause. All things that have a beginning must have a cause.
The first cause had to be self-existant, immaterial, spaceless, timeless, intelligent, and powerful. God.
Atheistsm is an irrational position to hold.
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Atheism grew with advance of science, so it's quite the opposite.
Atheism is in worldwide decline despite the popularity of Dawkins and Hitchens among anti-theists (Anti-theism is the "new racism" that goes by the name of the "new atheism.)
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Yes, an eternal universe is more convenient for atheism, but not necessary at all.
Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.) Assuming you accept the Big Bang theory start before the singularity that caused the Big Bang. Explain what caused the singularity and what the caused the cause of the cause of the singularity. What we need to get to is the first cause, the uncaused cause. So please backtrack to that point.
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Nope. Why would it?
The law of causality [cause and effect.] No material thing can create itself.
That is the basis of science. Every material effect needs a cause. Given the same object and same circumstances the same results will be had. Otherwise experimentation would be impossible and science would not exist.
Are you claiming that in a steady state of absolute nothing that matter came to be without anything to act on the nothingness?
It is irrational to believe the universe "just happened."
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That's interesting. Do you mean Adam's decision wasn't effected by Satan? And did Eva know about the consequences of eating that apple?
Eve knew God's commandment not to eat of the treee. But Satan deceived her and she ate of the tree thinking something good would happen. She "fell" into transgrassion. Adam ate of the tree if full realization that he was disobeying God and knowing that consequences would follow. He willfully sinned.
1 Timothy 2:14
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(New King James Version)
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.
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If God loves all men, why does he let Satan get them in many cases? Does he love Satan and hell creatures much more?
It's usually said that he gives men a choice and they choose between hell and heaven with their deeds, but why can't men choose from heaven and hell directly, like saying to God after death: "I wanna go to Heaven!". That would sound much more like a real choice.
God gives man free will. Man makes his choice to follow God or not to follow God. Our opportunity to repent of our sins is in this life. This life is the time to plant and water our crop. Afterwards comes the harvest.
Why should God let (for example) Hitler into heaven? He is responsible for roughly 13 million deaths. Hitler chose to become the monster that he became. Every man will be judged for his deeds. We "reap what we have sown."
Sowing and reaping
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7 Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life. 9 And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, especially to those who are of the household of faith.
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What do you mean, "absolute truths". Truths in what sense? Mathematics is a separate universe, based on a few axioms, with everything, every conclusion, every proof based on them. It's a language as well that excatly and precisely describes certain things. As a language, mathematics are great for describing the world we live in and the rules it follows, but I'm really unwilling to associate it with the word "truth". It's consistent, certainly. But a truth?
How silly. It is true that you if you have 3 apples in your possession and pick 2 more apples that you have 5 apples. That is absolute truth. Those who claim there are no absolute truths have to make such silly and illogical statments.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted March 18, 2010 04:30 PM |
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Because prior to the observations that proved the universe had a beginning atheists argued the universe was eternal. We know that all things material need a cause. The universe could not produce itself. The first cause, the uncaused cause, had to be immaterial, timeless, spaceless, self-existant, intelligent, and powerful. God.
Prior to the observations that proved the species on earth to have evolved from a single organism theists argued all life to have come to be as they are through the power of god. Did that not make theism irrational a long time before atheism was made irrational?
The discovery that the universe had a beginning did not disprove atheism, it simply disproved the notion that the universe is eternal. Just as the theory of evolution did not disprove theism, it simply disproved the notion that life was born as it is today.
As of the first cause, I see no reason to assume that it necessarily had to be something intelligent. It might as well have been some manner of a chaotic pre-universe state wich then formed the universe we live in.
A-ha! How about this then?
Please don't ignore me. I'm beginning to feel inadequate. 
As a psychological defence I might have to assume that you guys are simply ignoring the strongest arguments and instead preying on the weak! 
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 18, 2010 05:20 PM |
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Atheism Theism is an irrational position to hold.
Thank you and good night
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Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.)
How could we? Claiming that something caused it is just as much bullocks and snowy.
So please pick an argument instead of throwing failing logic.
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The law of causality [cause and effect.] No material thing can create itself.
That is the basis of science.
The basis of science? No its not. Science is nothing more than an attempt to understand the world, and how it works.
What you said is........... best to be described as a law of nature, we could always by some obscure means figure out how to creating matter out of nothing. Or we would not.
So its a current observation of the laws of nature.
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Are you claiming that in a steady state of absolute nothing that matter came to be without anything to act on the nothingness?
It is irrational to believe the universe "just happened."
Bullocks! Its just as irrational to say that something caused it.
Either way we got no evidence of either, so BULLOCKS to anyboy who claims either.
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Eve knew God's commandment not to eat of the treee. But Satan deceived her and she ate of the tree thinking something good would happen. She "fell" into transgrassion. Adam ate of the tree if full realization that he was disobeying God and knowing that consequences would follow. He willfully sinned.
Then why punish Eve? Adam is MORE guilty. She was tempted into it, he decided to go straight against it.
PS: Don't forget Lilith.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 18, 2010 05:36 PM |
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Atheists must ignorre current observatinos and the laws of thermodynamics to cling to their irrational position.
Please repeat this three more times. Repeating one sentence two times isn't enough to convince me. I've read a statement that creation of life from non-living matter contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That statements is obviously wrong, as I have studied thermodynamics.
Sorry, I'm not the one who said that "creation of life from non-living matter contradicts the 2nd law of thermodynamics." To my recollection a non-Christian said that and he was trying to put words in my mouth, which anti-Christians often do.
If you are going to quote me as saying something link to where I wrote it.
The laws of thermodynamics have nothing to do with life, at least not directly. I have explained how the laws of thermodynamics is incompatable with atheism a number of times. Please go back and read my previous posts in this thread and then link to any posts you have questions about.
It is impossible that the universe is eternal based on current observations from Hubble and the COBE sattelite as well as the laws of thermodynamics. It is impossible that the universe came to be from absolute nothing with no cause. All things that have a beginning must have a cause.
The first cause had to be self-existant, immaterial, spaceless, timeless, intelligent, and powerful. God.
Atheistsm is an irrational position to hold.
"Had to be" as in wishing it to be, assuming with no proof.
you're right about the universe not being an eternal existence, it's just over 13 billion years old. however, rationality in terms of a originator is a misnomer as we have no idea what came before the universe, otherwise we will be going outside the universe, and considering we cannot go outside the universe, its a moot point. god being first cause is just a viable as saying that Willis the monkey is.
also, Elodin, it is unwise to argue with people who are studying the subject you've only copy and pasted about. not only that, but you are using lawyerlogic, in that:
"I think the earth is flat"
"That's pretty stupid idea to say that,"
"I never said that, you can't prove I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth, It's all a conspiracy, all you ever do is hate and put words in my mouth, how dare you, how dare you you silly person!"
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Atheism grew with advance of science, so it's quite the opposite.
Atheism is in worldwide decline despite the popularity of Dawkins and Hitchens among anti-theists (Anti-theism is the "new racism" that goes by the name of the "new atheism.)
Statistics, evidence, population ups and down, man! show us, inform us, don't spout of statements, give us information!
Atheism is on world wide decline... I think not some how, unless you're delusions are so powerful they are starting to project onto reality.
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Yes, an eternal universe is more convenient for atheism, but not necessary at all.
Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.) Assuming you accept the Big Bang theory start before the singularity that caused the Big Bang. Explain what caused the singularity and what the caused the cause of the cause of the singularity. What we need to get to is the first cause, the uncaused cause. So please backtrack to that point.
as stated before, we don't know what first cause was. You put you're money on god, I'll put it on willis the monkey.
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Nope. Why would it?
The law of causality [cause and effect.] No material thing can create itself.
That is the basis of science. Every material effect needs a cause. Given the same object and same circumstances the same results will be had. Otherwise experimentation would be impossible and science would not exist.
Are you claiming that in a steady state of absolute nothing that matter came to be without anything to act on the nothingness?
It is irrational to believe the universe "just happened."
just as it's irrational to believe in an all perfect sky daddy whose his son reborn and will kill all of us who like their free will because he loves us on a day that has already pasted and nothing happened.
for those who don't know, Judgement day was meant to happen on october the 22nd, 1844... and guess what, it didn't happen. people sold stocks, got rid of their possessions, one guy even jumped off his roof, hoping an angel will catch him. It didn't happen, and all that was left was some rich bankers, some disappointed people and two broken legs.
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That's interesting. Do you mean Adam's decision wasn't effected by Satan? And did Eva know about the consequences of eating that apple?
Eve knew God's commandment not to eat of the treee. But Satan deceived her and she ate of the tree thinking something good would happen. She "fell" into transgrassion. Adam ate of the tree if full realization that he was disobeying God and knowing that consequences. He willfully sinned.
Question: if god cared for adam and eve, why did he put a tree in the middle of the garden that would get them kicked out the garden of eden?
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If God loves all men, why does he let Satan get them in many cases? Does he love Satan and hell creatures much more?
It's usually said that he gives men a choice and they choose between hell and heaven with their deeds, but why can't men choose from heaven and hell directly, like saying to God after death: "I wanna go to Heaven!". That would sound much more like a real choice.
God gives man free will. Man makes his choice to follow God or not to follow God. Our opportunity to repent of our sins is in this life. This life is the time to plant and water our crop. Afterwards comes the harvest.
Why should God let (for example) Hitler into heaven? He is responsible for roughly 13 million deaths. Hitler chose to become the monster that he became. Every man will be judged for his deeds. We "reap what we have sown."
but didn't jesus say that you can't get into heaven if you don't accept him.
so a doctor could save thousands of lives, find the cure for cancer, be faithful to his family, give to charity all his life... and he'd still go to hell for not believing in god.
yeah, really a guy I want to believe him
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What do you mean, "absolute truths". Truths in what sense? Mathematics is a separate universe, based on a few axioms, with everything, every conclusion, every proof based on them. It's a language as well that excatly and precisely describes certain things. As a language, mathematics are great for describing the world we live in and the rules it follows, but I'm really unwilling to associate it with the word "truth". It's consistent, certainly. But a truth?
How silly. It is true that you if you have 3 apples in your possession and pick 2 more apples that you have 5 apples. That is absolute truth. Those who claim there are no absolute truths have to make such silly and illogical statments.
no, you're just not allowing them to explain why they is no absolute truth.
as I have said, Absolute will mean the death of progression. absolutes will set something in stone, unwilling and unable to change, meaning the death of progression. Science is a progressive subject, and thus it is built on not having absolutes.
take the newtonian laws. Scientist have now proven that it's only selective in it's application.
I have a theory over why you are such a hard supporter of the idea of absolutes, Elodin. If there were absolutes, we could ignore science and just say "God did it" and there would be no arguments, as it would be an absolute truth.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 18, 2010 07:39 PM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 20:04, 18 Mar 2010.
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JollyJoker,
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What do you mean, "absolute truths". Truths in what sense?
Proven facts.
Elodin,
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It is impossible that the universe is eternal based on current observations from Hubble and the COBE sattelite as well as the laws of thermodynamics.
So, you only meant that infinitely old universe contradicts thermodynamics? Then I can agree.
I've been reading since a few pages ago, so I assumed you were referring to the thing I heard about.
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Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.) Assuming you accept the Big Bang theory start before the singularity that caused the Big Bang. Explain what caused the singularity and what the caused the cause of the cause of the singularity. What we need to get to is the first cause, the uncaused cause. So please backtrack to that point.
From my perspective, singularity is the beginning. Time started with it, so we cannot backtrack to a point before it. It sounds reasonable to take that singularity and physics laws as the 'first, uncaused cause' (although I don't believe it's uncaused because I believe in souls). A single point together with laws of physics arguably aren't more complex than a thinking and willing entity. Moreover, an entity that is time-less, but acts in time, creating world in 7 days.
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Eve knew God's commandment not to eat of the treee. But Satan deceived her and she ate of the tree thinking something good would happen. She "fell" into transgrassion. Adam ate of the tree if full realization that he was disobeying God and knowing that consequences would follow. He willfully sinned.
Then this only means they had free will. We should be proud of them Every rule must have a reason. If the reason isn't explained, the rule isn't logical, only reason to follow it is obedience. This depicts a god that requires obedience, like a tyrant.
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God gives man free will. Man makes his choice to follow God or not to follow God. Our opportunity to repent of our sins is in this life. This life is the time to plant and water our crop. Afterwards comes the harvest.
Why should God let (for example) Hitler into heaven? He is responsible for roughly 13 million deaths. Hitler chose to become the monster that he became. Every man will be judged for his deeds. We "reap what we have sown."
Yes, this is fair that Hitler isn't in the same boat with saints.
But even Hitler didn't torture people *eternally*.
It is especially unfair to apply torture to ones who sinned without hurting others - for example, sex without marriage, already mentioned gays and so on. It's not "reap what we have sown" at all. It isn't love and isn't justice, so I'm clueless as to what reason a good god may have for such things.
bixie,
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for those who don't know, Judgement day was meant to happen on october the 22nd, 1844...
The Great Disappointment was a major event in the history of the Millerite movement, a 19th century American Christian sect. (c) Wikipedia
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 18, 2010 08:13 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 20:23, 18 Mar 2010.
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Prior to the observations that proved the species on earth to have evolved from a single organism theists argued all life to have come to be as they are through the power of god. Did that not make theism irrational a long time before atheism was made irrational?
Actually, you are wrong. The first person I am aware of to have proposed evolution is Augustine. Perhaps you should read some early Christian writings. I linked to some early Christian writings about evolution long before Darwin came along if you go back and review my posts.
The differnce is Christians believe in evolution guided by God rather than a universe magically appearing out of absolute nothing for no reason and magically forming an ordered universe and magically producing life.
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The discovery that the universe had a beginning did not disprove atheism, it simply disproved the notion that the universe is eternal. Just as the theory of evolution did not disprove theism, it simply disproved the notion that life was born as it is today.
Sure it did. For the reasons I have already stated the universe could not have produced itself.
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As of the first cause, I see no reason to assume that it necessarily had to be something intelligent. It might as well have been some manner of a chaotic pre-universe state wich then formed the universe we live in.
No, matter could not have been eternal for reasons already referenced. Ever hear of entropy?
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Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.)
How could we? Claiming that something caused it is just as much bullocks and snowy.
So please pick an argument instead of throwing failing logic.
I know you can't. Because claims that the univese produced itself are irrational and in opposition to known science.
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The law of causality [cause and effect.] No material thing can create itself.
That is the basis of science.
The basis of science? No its not. Science is nothing more than an attempt to understand the world, and how it works.
What you said is........... best to be described as a law of nature, we could always by some obscure means figure out how to creating matter out of nothing. Or we would not.
So its a current observation of the laws of nature.
Absolutely, science is an imperfect tool of imperfect people who make imperfect measurements and reach imperfect conclusions.
But without the principle of causation modern science would not be possible. Experiments would not be possible because results would be purely random and the "output" would be unrelated to the "input." You could throw a ball up in the air and one time it might shoot off into space at 10,000 miles per hour and the next time it might fall to the ground as soon as it leaves you hand (with equal force applied during the initial throw.)
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Are you claiming that in a steady state of absolute nothing that matter came to be without anything to act on the nothingness?
It is irrational to believe the universe "just happened."
Bullocks! Its just as irrational to say that something caused it.
Either way we got no evidence of either, so BULLOCKS to anyboy who claims either.
The idea that a self-existant God created everything is not irrational and doees not contradict known science unlike the idea that th universe created itself out of absolute nothing with no cause.
Materialistic atheism is irrational.
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Then why punish Eve? Adam is MORE guilty. She was tempted into it, he decided to go straight against it.
PS: Don't forget Lilith.
Sorry, there was no Lilith.
Eve sinned. Being deceived is not an excuse. And when she was confronted by God about her sin rather than saying "I blew it, please forgive me" she basicly said, "its not my fault! It is the snake's fault." Now, if she had confessed and asked for mercy maybe ther would have been no punishment for her. The Bible does not say.
When God confronted Paul (then Saul) on the road to Damascus he had a differnet attitutde and was forgiven. Paul had thought he was doing the right thing in murdering Christians:
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1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
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1 Timothy 1:13 (New King James Version)
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
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The first cause had to be self-existant, immaterial, spaceless, timeless, intelligent, and powerful. God.
"Had to be" as in wishing it to be, assuming with no proof.
No, "had to be" based on facts.
o The first cause ahd to be uncaused. So it had to be self-existant.
o The first cause had to be immaterial. Matter can't be eternal for reasons already mentioned.
o The first casue had to be spaceless becasue the space-time continuim came into being in an instant at the initial moment of creathion. The first cause existed before space.
0 The first cause had to be timeless. The space-time continuim came into being in an instant. The first cause existed before time.
o The first cause had to be intelligent to produce the universe. To make a decision to go from a state of nothingness to what is now the existence that we know.
o The first cause had to be powerful to produce the universe.
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god being first cause is just a viable as saying that Willis the monkey is.
No, saying a monkey is the first cause is just a speaking foolishly. Again, anti-Christians seldom have anything rational to say about any spiritual matter and so speak foolishness.
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also, Elodin, it is unwise to argue with people who are studying the subject you've only copy and pasted about. not only that, but you are using lawyerlogic, in that:
"I think the earth is flat"
"That's pretty stupid idea to say that,"
"I never said that, you can't prove I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth, It's all a conspiracy, all you ever do is hate and put words in my mouth, how dare you, how dare you you silly person!"
First, you are a liar if you say I have ever said the earth is flat. Secondly, you have no idea what education i have.
Thirdly, and most importantly, you have so far been unable to counter any points I have made and have made no intelligent points of your own. Most of your comments are just innane comments not even meant to convey a serious thought. I challege you to become more serious in discussing spiritual matters instead of spouting out such gibberish.
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Statistics, evidence, population ups and down, man! show us, inform us, don't spout of statements, give us information!
Atheism is on world wide decline... I think not some how, unless you're delusions are so powerful they are starting to project onto reality.
I'm not the deluded one. One of the big reasons for decline is the fall of communism. To be a good little state controlled communist you have to be a good little indoctrinated atheist. There are no longer as many communist nations to brainwash students.
http://creationwiki.org/Decline_of_atheism
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According to Munich theologian Wolfhart Pannenberg, "Atheism as a theoretical position is in decline worldwide."
According to Oxford's Alister McGrath, Atheism's "future seems increasingly to lie in the private beliefs of individuals rather than in the great public domain it once regarded as its habitat," Christianity Today. [1]
Reasons cited for the decline of atheism include:
o Substantive challenges to naturalistic explanations for the origin of life;
o Substantive challenges to psychological theories viewing religion as a pathology, and a scientific demonstration of the health benefits of a spiritual life;
o Philosophical challenges to the presuppositions and axioms of atheism, such as materialism;
o The decline of Marxism and Leninism;
o Tenuousness of belief in atheism by many of its own believers;
o Reduction in atheism and resurgence of theistic belief worldwide;
o Inhuman acts committed by atheists throughout the 20th century;
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as stated before, we don't know what first cause was. You put you're money on god, I'll put it on willis the monkey.
In other words, you can't refute the facts I have presented so you just make idiotic comments.
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just as it's irrational to believe in an all perfect sky daddy whose his son reborn and will kill all of us who like their free will because he loves us on a day that has already pasted and nothing happened.
Wow, that is your defense of a steady state of nothing producing the universe without a cause eh? Like I said, when it comes to to facing facts anti-Chrsitians have nothing intellilgent to say.
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for those who don't know, Judgement day was meant to happen on october the 22nd, 1844... and guess what, it didn't happen.
Not in the Bible dude. No idea where you pulled that from. What the Bible says is that no man will know the day or hour the Lord is going to return. Ooooooppppps another anti-Christian lie exposed.
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Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
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Question: if god cared for adam and eve, why did he put a tree in the middle of the garden that would get them kicked out the garden of eden?
The Bible does not say. Maybe to give them a chance to exercise free will. They could chose to follow God or to obey Satan.
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but didn't jesus say that you can't get into heaven if you don't accept him.
Where did I say he didn't? Chrisitans have to continue a repentant life, repenting when they sin. There is no such Bible doctrine as "once saved always saved." We have to continue to follow Christ.
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so a doctor could save thousands of lives, find the cure for cancer, be faithful to his family, give to charity all his life... and he'd still go to hell for not believing in god.
Yes. God gives light to every man and every man choses to receive or reject that light. As a man responds to the light that is given he gets more light or light is withdrawn based on his response.
Every person is without excuse.
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no, you're just not allowing them to explain why they is no absolute truth.
Joint hands with other anti-Christians and chant "There is no absolute truth" till your face turns blue. That won't change the fact that absolute truths exist. 2 +3 = 5. Always. Absolute truth.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 18, 2010 08:26 PM |
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2 +3 = 5
Math isn't always absolute or very clear-cut. Did you know that, elodin, honey bunny?
What is 0/0, for instance?
Let's talk indefinite ones, like...
2^(-0.5)
This argument holds no ground, but I hate it when you say 2+3=5, because the god equation isn't simple addition...
It's also subtraction and multiplication and complex philosophy.
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted March 18, 2010 08:37 PM |
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Explain how the universe came to be out of absolute nothing and without a cause (since nothing existed that could have caused it.)
How could we? Claiming that something caused it is just as much bullocks and snowy.
So please pick an argument instead of throwing failing logic.
I know you can't. Because claims that the univese produced itself are irrational and in opposition to known science.
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The basis of science? No its not. Science is nothing more than an attempt to understand the world, and how it works.
What you said is........... best to be described as a law of nature, we could always by some obscure means figure out how to creating matter out of nothing. Or we would not.
So its a current observation of the laws of nature.
But without the principle of causation modern science would not be possible. Experiments would not be possible because results would be purely random and the "output" would be unrelated to the "input." You could throw a ball up in the air and one time it might shoot off into space at 10,000 miles per hour and the next time it might fall to the ground as soon as it leaves you hand (with equal force applied during the initial throw.)
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Are you claiming that in a steady state of absolute nothing that matter came to be without anything to act on the nothingness?
It is irrational to believe the universe "just happened."
Bullocks! Its just as irrational to say that something caused it.
Either way we got no evidence of either, so BULLOCKS to anyboy who claims either.
The idea that a self-existant God created everything is not irrational and doees not contradict known science unlike the idea that th universe created itself out of absolute nothing with no cause.
Oh please, it does not work that way!
Either you want it or not, we know NOTHING at all. From what we know the universe seems to be based on some obscure random fractal generator pulling stuff, and that is only so far.
Can you actually tell me why a allmight flying spaggethi monster is more likely than it "just happend"?
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