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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 19, 2009 03:56 AM |
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@ Elodin:
Quote:
@blizzardboy
Oh please. If the US had not gone to war on terror there would have been more attacks on US soil.
Guesswork. Although you actually are probably right, assuming we didn't officially go to war but continued to let the ever-corrupt and poorly-created CIA continue to jerk around in the Middle East, and assuming we continued to incubate Israel, and assuming we continued to have expensive bases in the Persian Gulf. If Iran built bases in Canada or Cuba, guess what, we'd be pretty annoyed about it too. So it would have been wise not only to have never invaded Iraq, but to also have withdrawn from the Gulf. It's a dangerous endeavor, and we invite consequences for it.
This doesn't mean the 9/11 terrorists were justified in blowing up a bunch of civilians. If I harass somebody at work, it doesn't give them justification to knife my secretary, although I did indeed instigate them to do something rash. In the same way, certain elements within the U.S. instigated Al Qaeda.
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I really can't believe you are saying the US got what was coming to it on 9/11. You been listening to Obama's pastor of 20 years, Rev Wright?
Politics is not a two-sided coin. Just because I don't agree with invading Iraq doesn't make me an Obama supporter, as I am far from a supporter of Obama or Wright, and I never have been. I thought Obama was a snake-oil salesman from the beginning of the 2008 presidential campaign.
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The radical Islamics say all must convert to Islam or die. Or live under Sharia law as virtual slaves and pay tribute to them. Their will be war on terror from now on or you will live or die under their rules.
Islam has existed for 1.4k years. In the 1700 and 1800s, the Islamic Ottoman Empire was a major power in the world. They were imperialist in many ways, but this is hardly unique, because so was every other major power in the 18th, 19th and early 20th century. Even the U.S. with it's admirable reputation of keeping it's dick out of other people's affairs indulged in some imperialism at the start of the 20th century, and that's not even mentioning the conquering of the Indian nations.
The point? Islamic forces historically held far more power than they do today, so where are is all of the history of them coming over to the U.S. and sabotaging trains and murdering civilians? Why is it that our current understanding of terrorism just went into full swing in recent history? Why is much of the Middle East angry at the U.S. now? Is it so hard to believe that it is due to recent actions on our part? As I stated earlier: do you think they just got pissed for no reason whatsoever?
Now, this doesn't mean that if we stayed out of their affairs that there would be no malignant individuals. But their numbers would be drastically reduced. Secondly, it is not a "war on terror". It's not a war at all. It's a criminal problem, and it needs to be treated like one. By lightly throwing around words like "war" you do the meaning of the word injustice, as well as suggest that it is actual countries which we are against.
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If the US is broke why is Obama making the US pay for abortions and condoms around the world? Why is he making taxpayers pay large sums ($4-5,000 per car) for people with old cars to buy new ones? Why so many pork projects in the "stimulus" package when Obama vowed to veto any bill with earmarks? He lied, didn't he?
Meanwhile he takes over the banks, major automobile industry, insurance companies, and soon the health industry. People don't learn from history it seems.
Yet you complain about money spent on war on terror to keep America safe? Perhaps America should forget about going down failed socialism road and let people keep more money of what they make.
Don't look at me for how Obama is going to pay for his radical left socialist agenda. But I can tell you how he will do it. Tax. Tax. Taxtaxtaxtaxtax. He lied to you during the campaign. Your taxes will soon be very very very high. Welcome to what Marxism brings. We will see if you like the taste.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLry3ABpV0
Unrelated.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 19, 2009 04:00 AM |
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Quote:
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime9 . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.
Who are you to disagree with wilfred owen? Will you be remembered throughout the ages? No? Well, shut up, then! 
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If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 20, 2009 04:02 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:13, 27 Aug 2009.
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@Blizz
Quote:
Politics is not a two-sided coin. Just because I don't agree with invading Iraq doesn't make me an Obama supporter, as I am far from a supporter of Obama or Wright, and I never have been. I thought Obama was a snake-oil salesman from the beginning of the 2008 presidential campaign.
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote in your post. I only quoted the above to add that Elodin uses false choice fallacious reasoning all the time. Well, fallacious reasoning in general. So, his fallacious rhetoric should come as no surprise to you. Someone of your mental caliber shouldn't be wasting his time fighting such futile battles.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 20, 2009 05:20 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 05:22, 20 Aug 2009.
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I just dislike when people accuse me of saying something I didn't, you know, like saying a certain person was a racist when I did not. Wrong topic I know but it ties into what was said last post here.
I'm sure he's a good person, but he needs to put more thought into his posts IMHO, rather than glancing over what's written and giving a statement based on what looks like assumption.
I also think John McCain should have been President in 2000, while the 2008 election was more like Alien Vs Predator (whoever wins, we lose). Obama didn't seem sincere and McCain did a complete 360 on his way of thinking up until 2008 to please his base and still seems to be doing so. It can't be helped though, the democrats and republicans are essentially the same party with different branding.
Back to the topic and not a response to the last few posts.
My opinion is that all war is Immoral on some level though some are moreso than others. Wars can however be ethical.
Much like the sleazy lawyer who called himself "Mr Loophole", who takes the guiltiest people he can find, doesn't even listen to his client's accounts and just looks for legal loopholes to get them off.
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DagothGares
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No gods or kings
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posted August 20, 2009 05:42 AM |
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My opinion is that all war is Immoral on some level though some are moreso than others. Wars can however be ethical.
I think I agree, though could someone expand on the difference between ethics and morals?
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted August 20, 2009 05:49 AM |
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I don't think there is one, except ethics tends to be used academically and morals is more vernacular. Ethics = Moral Philosophy.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 20, 2009 05:52 AM |
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Edited by Aculias at 05:56, 20 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
IMHO. All war is immoral as major religions and even common moral frameworks say that killing is a bad thing. Even bad in self defense (though far, far less bad). Some adherents believe you can be redeemed, others say you must pay in some way in the afterlife.
However, war can be ethical. Ethical wars are conducted by following all treaties and rules of engagement your nation is subject to.
Civilian deaths are more tragic than military deaths, mostly because they civilians did not ask to be placed in front of weapons while the soldiers willingly volunteered their bodies. Some would call it a noble sacrifice, some would call it stupidity, others... just want to go on living.
By many accounts, Saddam claimed he had WMDs because he was using them as a fear tactic because he was worried Iran would invade. Iran is primarily Shi-ite, as is a large amount of the population of Iraq, and wants (or wanted at one point) as many Islamic majority nations to have fundamentalist government. But Iraq had a minority Sunni run secular government. Saddam didn't want the Iranians to invade a second time and perhaps that time successfully rouse the Shi-ite majority to help them. Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden hated Saddam for his strictly secular government. They would have been all over him like an ice cream cone in the desert if he were running an Islamic government. Even Rumsfeld eventually admitted there was little to no evidence of a connection between Al-Qaeda and Iraq.
[url=http://hammeringsparksfromtheanvil.blogspot.com/2008/01/60-minutes-watch-saddam-husseins-friend.html]What was Saddam's opinion of Osama Bin Laden?[/url]
"He considered him to be a fanatic. And as such was very wary of him. He told me, 'You can't really trust fanatics,'" Piro says.
(This is after he was tortured no less.)
Yes, Saddam was a bad person, yes he played the US for suckers and gassed the Iranians with American weapons and used the leftovers on Nationalist Kurds, yes he did sponsor Palestinian suicide bombers, yes he deserved extreme punishment. But in the case of Iraq it's of my opinion (and most of the free world) that the war was started for all of the wrong reasons. America has fought many just wars for legitimate reasons, but it has also fought several questionable wars using questionable methods. Being more of a middle-ground an/protagonist. No country is perfect, but we need to make sure that every war is done with more thought put into them. We can't just bomb neutral countries and call it a day or invade when we're not wanted.
It's all playing to the hands of corrupt politicians. Each time we "vote the bums out of office" we just vote in the bums who ripped us off the last time.
So what now your better then him because you think your opinions have to stick.
This is a debatable place.
Your opinions are as good as you make it. People dont have to agree with you.
War is immoral but nessary most of the time.
Americans has been in many wars since America was formed & we started most of them.
It's the same as people wanting peace.
Countries will always be hated by other countries.
War is nessary because of the hatred & religious wars.
Ethical? What can we gain? Money, Oil, Peace, More land. Ethically it is a state of mind.Morality maybe. What is right & wrong to us compared to other countries.
Some wars are just plain rediculas.
Take the Vietnam war.
People fighting for Power.
We help out from the communist to take over the Southern area.
Then the war exanded to Cambodia.
Which led to the infamous shooting at Kent State in 1970.
4 deaths & I think 9-11 injured including one Paralyzed for life.
If I remember 2 of the 4 killed was not even part of the Protest.
Then we got the Civil war which had to be done because Some of the Southern states had formed their own federate groups.
Slavery in the 11 states.
Emancipation was ordered to free the 11 states of Slavery.
The war was needed to free the US from ourselves & the hatred.
It took yrs as you know.
Ku Klux Klan was formed basically imediately.
War is hard.
People fight for their country & Freedom so We can have what we have now.Shyranis.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted August 20, 2009 05:53 AM |
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I think there is one, like morals are self-imposed values, while ethics are values to make a society work (so ethics would be closer to laws), but I'm not sure, possibly I'm wrong or I should google it, but I'm too busy to do actual research on that, right now.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 20, 2009 06:35 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 07:56, 29 Aug 2009.
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@ Corribus
Quote:
I agree with pretty much everything you wrote in your post. I only quoted the above to add that Elodin uses false choice fallacious reasoning all the time. Well, fallacious reasoning in general. So, his fallacious rhetoric should come as no surprise to you. Someone of your mental caliber shouldn't be wasting his time fighting such futile battles.
I object to your false allegations.
I usually present my arguments with evidence to back them up. When I claim the Bible teaches such and such I back it up. When speaking of the intentions of the founding fathers, I quote them. Ect.
Unfortunately some people have a tendency to classify things they disagree with as fallaciious.
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 21, 2009 06:03 PM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 18:06, 21 Aug 2009.
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Morals = The society's overall communal code of conduct. Not expressly written but the accepted norms. Society can mean the country you are in, or there are also morals pertaining to specific groups of individuals. Different religions for example have slightly different morals than each other and the communities they exist in.
Ethics = The written laws, some of which may conflict or contradict some or many people's morals. Lawyers as I mentioned can be blatantly immoral, but do so within the law and be 100% ethical.
People get the two mixed up because in most cases morals and ethics are homogeneous, exactly alike.
Ethical wars are the ones that follow all of the proper international laws and rules of engagement. Even most wars by every nation in history fail to do that.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted August 22, 2009 01:42 AM |
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Quote:
War is hard.
People fight for their country & Freedom so We can have what we have now.Shyranis.
The other side does think the same too, you know?
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The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 22, 2009 01:46 AM |
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Every country believe that our troops are fighting for us.
That I can not deny.
The reasons why is a different matter Morally or ethically.
It goes both ways.
It does not go Tyranus one thought process way either.
I read alot about history.
I also refuse to give anyone special treatment like most of yall do because of who the person is.
Basically same as Asheera,Pandora,Cathrine, Melina,Iris & who can forget our first Diva who rose to get 5 red stars in like a month lol.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2009 04:47 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 04:57, 22 Aug 2009.
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I didn't even see this post of yours when I posted my last message.
Quote:
So what now your better then him because you think your opinions have to stick.
This is a debatable place.
Your opinions are as good as you make it. People dont have to agree with you.
I would never force anybody to agree with me.
Quote:
War is immoral but nessary most of the time.
Americans has been in many wars since America was formed & we started most of them.
It's the same as people wanting peace.
Countries will always be hated by other countries.
War is nessary because of the hatred & religious wars.
Ethical? What can we gain? Money, Oil, Peace, More land. Ethically it is a state of mind.Morality maybe. What is right & wrong to us compared to other countries.
Some wars are just plain rediculas.
Take the Vietnam war.
People fighting for Power.
We help out from the communist to take over the Southern area.
Then the war exanded to Cambodia.
Which led to the infamous shooting at Kent State in 1970.
4 deaths & I think 9-11 injured including one Paralyzed for life.
If I remember 2 of the 4 killed was not even part of the Protest.
The Cambodia bombings leads to a lot of my family being genocided.
Quote:
Then we got the Civil war which had to be done because Some of the Southern states had formed their own federate groups.
Slavery in the 11 states.
Emancipation was ordered to free the 11 states of Slavery.
The war was needed to free the US from ourselves & the hatred.
It took yrs as you know.
Ku Klux Klan was formed basically imediately.p\
I never said I disagreed with the civil war. I have pointed out in other threads my dislike of the KKK.
Quote:
War is hard.
People fight for their country & Freedom so We can have what we have now.Shyranis.
I agree. Not every war was positive for (insert country here) however, or a benefit to the world.
Quote:
Not all of them.
Then again it seems your one track moral mind will never understand.
It was a different time & the way people thought was different.
Here you are making it like there is no debate.
Racist goes beyond your thinking Syranus
What the hell is that supposed to mean? I've never called you any names.
I've never stated that my way of thinking was absolute, merely what I think and how things are defined in the simplest terms in schools and dictionaries.
Every war is immoral and most are unethical historically, especially if you look at the actions of both sides. What did you think I was talking about? One track moral mind? You have to examine things from every side.
Why are you insulting me? First Elodin insults me and calls me a racist in the healthcare thread, now you do too? How am I even being racist in this case? I was being as general as vanilla ice cream. I'm pretty sure you're breaking the COC... it's not like I've ever personally insulted you or anybody else.
I nearly died because of a genocide started because of bombings done on a neutral country that continued and was supported by the United States even after the genocidal power was deposed from the capitol (but not the rest of the country). It's not like I'm doing anything wrong by stating my opinion. I'm not saying other people are wrong either. So either learn to give people respect and not call them names or... well it's a free country I'm sure you can think of something. It's your right. But Heroes Community itself is not a country, and it mandates respect.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 22, 2009 06:57 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 06:59, 22 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
Why are you insulting me? First Elodin insults me and calls me a racist in the healthcare thread, now you do too?
Untrue. I said you made some racist statments and you did.
@DagothGares
Please stop insulting me. That is against the Code of Conduct. Perhaps you should review it.
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 22, 2009 07:09 AM |
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Thank you Shyranis.
I just wanted to hear real feelings on how honest you feel about your statements.
Sometimes people speak but they dont show how they really feel on the issue.
Kind of like being honest but not saying it with heart.
Now give me a Net hug girl.
Also your baby is adorable.
Having kids is the best thing in anyones life.
Just remember to not get mad if your baby burns your rug when she turns 8
Kidding aside, most know me to read people.
I kind of knew you would reply with more feeling & heart.
I also agree 100%.
I never read any other threads you made.
Remember keep a happy face lol.
With love for everyone of course 
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted August 22, 2009 07:11 AM |
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Oh by the way, I am in the COC.
I was simply debating & stating my own opinion
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Dreaming of a Better World
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 22, 2009 07:29 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 07:32, 22 Aug 2009.
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Quote:
Quote:
Why are you insulting me? First Elodin insults me and calls me a racist in the healthcare thread, now you do too?
Untrue. I said you made some racist statments and you did.
Actually, I'm mistaken. NOW you're directly insulting me by saying I was racist.
Previously you had more sense and I apologize for accidentally mis-characterizing what you previously said.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but you are making a lot of statements that seem to be racist.
You previously said my statements seemed, meaning they weren't but looked like it to you at the time. NOW you're breaking the COC. There is nothing racist about saying a man addresses a certain part of his audience specifically, I'll give you some news, the NAACP primarily addresses its black audience too. Is that racist? Is calling GB a pundit and not a reporter (a fact he's even admitted) racist somehow?
If you have to personally attack people that disagree with you, it may not even be worth having a conversation with you at all.
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Aculias
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posted August 22, 2009 08:36 AM |
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Radicals lol
Glenn beck is a good place for debates.
Many people have some big choice of words good & bad.
"Beck was still only addressing the white portion of his audience by specifically mentioning Europe and not Asia and Africa as well. Also it's known that many poor white people tune into his shows as well as Fox is their only source of information."
I dont think it is racist but hating.
Being a sista I can understand that comment though.
Same problem Glenn has with our president.
He thinks he is a racist.
Glenn does not always have the best choice of words either.
TAKE THIS BACK INTO THE THREAD IN HAND PEOPLE.
You really dont know who tunes in.
I think Glenn's outgoing comments can be debatable.
The dude calling you a racist is uncalled for & should get a -QP.
I dont see a racist comment personally but I see great debate on a man with an open mind.
Now take this back into the health care thread.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 22, 2009 09:17 AM |
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I seem to disagree with most of the people here, because I think there is no moral and ethics of war - all the international conventions come from a time when war was accepted and people tried to make the game a bit less messy.
Think about it: if for whatever reason groups of people, call it countries or peoples or races or cities or whatever start killing others, because they stand in their way (or something along those lines): ALL BETS ARE OFF.
War means, that there is nothing left to talk about anymore, and starting a war is AGAINST ALL RULES, so why accept rules for a war at all? Note that this is true for both parties in a war: if there is a clear aggressor - why would he keep to any rules, he broke all important ones already by starting a war? And the defender? Why would they keep to any rule being attacked?
For me, war is the absence of all moral, ethics, rules and order, and it makes no sense to include any - this has only the purpose to somehow justify it - give it a more human face, admitting that war is politics with different means, but that is of course bull, considering that no sane civilian ever wants war or die in one.
This brings us to another question: what about terror?
Within WW2 there has been a lot of terror, for example in France and Yugoslavia - against the German invaders - and since Germany assaulted them, killed their people and plundered their lands I don't find fault in it.
Would it have been wrong to kill German civilians? No, not in my book - if a country starts a war against another country there are no civilians in the sense of the word, only people who support the war, actively or passively.
The word "Civilians" has lost its meaning with the French Revolution, altering the scope of wars forever.
Another interesting example is the "Battle of Britain". When Germany started the air war against Britain, the aim was purely tactical: they wanted to cripple the RAF: bomb all airfields and early warning towers on the coast and airplane factories to eliminate the RAF as a fighting force, allowing Germany air superiority over the North Sea to stage an invasion.
This went quite well - badly for the Brits -, until Churchill decided to counter: with bombing attacks on civilian targets. They started bomb raids against cities, and it worked: Hitler got so pissed about that that he decided to "hit back" and kill the British civilians as well.
With that the air war deteriorated fastly with the end result that Germany didn't fulfill their tactical goals. Invasion of Britain did never happen.
Of course time doesn't change that - a violent annexion that the attacked don't accept, doesn't stop because the aggressor says so.
The inherent problem of this is of course that there is more than one way to lead a "war" and not every war is fought with planes and tanks and armies - not every aggression is made with weapons. Politics and economics may be war as well, so the question isn't always who is firing the first short.
Therefore, if there is no law and no order and no organization who enforces law and order it's a jungle.
I repeat therefore, as you have a system of laws, of law enforcers and of courts within a country you need that for the whole world, for differences to settle between countries. The international court and the international police must be authorized and empowered to keep the peace, and countries must abide to international law.
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Aculias
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posted August 22, 2009 09:53 AM |
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Edited by Aculias at 10:07, 22 Aug 2009.
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There is always a reason.
Do you think people kill for their health lol?
Oh brother there are rules in war to protect our image from other countries & the United nation.
If there was no rules we probally would be at WW8 by now lol.
Oh brother.
There will always be casualties in war.
You cant just say one country deserves special treatment like the Germans.
The Germans thought they was invincible the same as the French did back 200 yrs ago.
Germany tried to evade Russia & almost won but they forgot a few vital points.
Protection against the weather & rations.
France thought they was the bomb.
On land they can win battles. Napoleon was strategically intellegent.
They was not that strong in sea battle, (Neither was I in the intelivision game ).
After all he was human & he made a few mistakes as well.
Point is that there will always be casualties & there are reasons why a war is started.
Never any good reasons but nessary reasons.
Bad reasons of course.
Usually the reasons are Greed,Power hungry & Vengeance.
I think Bush fits in those catagories.
Japan made more then one threat to us Americans back in WW2.
Even days before the Pearl Harbor incident they still threatened us.
Within the Japanese religion, you give yourself even after death.
That is why Kamikaze is nessary in their eyes.
Then we got war within our own country.
Famously the Civil war.
Also leaders who either turn on their own people & leaders or following the rules.
Mae Ste Tung was one of the famous who killed his pwn people to mills if they did not follow the rules.
Stalin was Paranoid with every Phobia in the book which was diagnosed & killed his own people.
Saddam was the same as well as everyone knows.
Even Death himself of North Korea Kim has rules just like Mae.
"No Smoking or else"
Point is War is nessary, like it or not.
Morally usually.
If every country thought alike, we would be in harmony & peace & John lennon would be singing to us in our dreams about the peace he will never see including in our own lifetime.
Edit on spelling corrections
Oh & YEA YEA I know i spell nessary wrong so what
So therefore as long as there is hatred within the different countries of judgemental & different thinking. There will always be wars.
Religious war, expansion wars etc.
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Dreaming of a Better World
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This thread is pages long: 
