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| Thread: I gave up on believing in Climate Change. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 23, 2009 03:57 AM |
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Excuse me, I didn't totally miss the point. Not only is looking at acceleration over that time scale meaningless, it is also not unprecendented acceleration.
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TheDeath
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posted November 23, 2009 04:42 AM |
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Quote:
Excuse me, I didn't totally miss the point. Not only is looking at acceleration over that time scale meaningless, it is also not unprecendented acceleration.
Considering that it was worse than the worst possible outcome by the "environmental maniacs" or whatever you want to call it, I'd say it was.
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xerox
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posted November 23, 2009 11:40 AM |
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Everybody needs to take responsibility with the enviroment and the climate change.
We humans are largely the cause of the rapid climate change and we are the only ones that can calm it down!
Do you want Xerox to live in a flooded hot world where gases has destroyed the atmosphere when he grows up?
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 24, 2009 12:58 PM |
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You don't have to look far back in the geological record to see that we don't live in any extraordinary conditions. Take a look at the temperature rise coming into the Eocene for example.
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Minion
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posted November 24, 2009 04:44 PM |
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@TA. That temperature rise you speak of resulted in a mass extinction. For example extinctions of 60% of plant species.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 12:33 AM |
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I think you confuse what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say that climate change isn't bad. I'm just trying to say that it's not unusual, it has happened before, it's only now that we have industry that people start to care about it and label it as anthropogenic.
My point is that it doesn't make sense to look at climate change over a scale of years, and comparing it to the past couple of decades.
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TheDeath
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posted November 25, 2009 12:40 AM |
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Unusual or not it's man-made and shouldn't be there.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 12:42 AM |
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Unusual or not it's man-made and shouldn't be there.
How do you know it's man made?
Shouldn't be there? Our planet is an ever changing and evolving climatic system which has been constantly changing since it's formation. It's what enabled life to evolve on Earth.
If there WASN'T climate change, that would be a cause for concern.
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pei
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posted November 25, 2009 12:44 AM |
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 12:45 AM |
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Nice addition Pei.
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pei
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posted November 25, 2009 12:48 AM |
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Thanks, u know where to find me.
I was referring to ur question, what u ask is what is man made, i answer.
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TheDeath
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posted November 25, 2009 12:50 AM |
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Quote:
How do you know it's man made?
Wait, are you ignoring all the evidence that was brought up in this thread?
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 01:31 AM |
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*scans thread*
*does not see any evidence brought up*
If I have missed some, could you please quote it for me?
The only counter argument that I can see is from Corribus (who seems to know what he is talking about on the matter) is that whether or not it is man made, we should stop polluting.
I agree with this, however I think that climate change places the emphasis of this in the wrong places, such as cutting carbon dioxide emissions at all costs, which leaves us unable to fund the changes needed to stop more dire pollution causes, and deal with the adaptation/mitigation.
edit: Minion posted something about CO2 levels remaining steady over time until modern times, though this is entirely untrue:
CO2 levels have been decreasing throughout the lifespan of the Earth, through a steady drawdown into the Earths crust, leaving modern times with some of the lowest CO2 concentrations in history.
Regardless, increasing CO2 concentrations does not imply man made climate change. I do not deny that we are emitting more CO2 now than before: obviously we are. I deny that this is going to cause the predicted dangerous climate change.
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TheDeath
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posted November 25, 2009 01:36 AM |
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Actually I was talking mostly about Minion's links.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 01:38 AM |
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What are Minions links? All I see is a link to something about Mars and Pluto not warming, which is a rebuttal to a point that was not made by me.
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Minion
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posted November 25, 2009 04:20 AM |
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Read your opening post TA. Yes it was a point also made by you. You do speak about it being the sun that is the cause of current warming.
Quote:
Regardless, increasing CO2 concentrations does not imply man made climate change. I do not deny that we are emitting more CO2 now than before: obviously we are. I deny that this is going to cause the predicted dangerous climate change.
Well obviously most scientists disagree with you. I am talking about the last 800,000 years, as up to that point we have very reliable data from ice core drillings. Ice cores reveal the Earth's natural climate rhythm over the last 800,000 years. When carbon dioxide changed there was always an accompanying climate change. Yes you claim that it happens the other way round, first temperature and then Co2. However I have not seen yet a published article in respectable science magazines showing that. On the contrary, there have been plenty that indicate the correlation works the other way round. Latest probably : [Nature, June 2009]
During this 800,000 years the fastest rise in Co2 levels has been 30 parts per million (ppm) by volume over a period of roughly 1,000 years. Although this is not "steady" in the utmost perfect sense of the word, it is steady compared to what we have now. The last 30 ppm of increase has occurred in just 17 years.
I never got to reply to your opening post, but there are several misinterpreted facts. For example the claim that the earth has been cooling since 1998. That data is based solely on surface temperatures. Is that an indicator of global warming? No. In the long term, what matters is how much heat is gained or lost by the entire planet - what climate scientists call the "top of the atmosphere" radiation budget.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 25, 2009 09:07 AM |
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I thought the point wasn't directed at me because someone else brought up the other planets warming. I didn't bring up other planets because Earth's atmosphere acts entirely different to the other planets. But The Death asked if I ignored "all evidence brought up in this thread" and then labelled that as "all of your links" and I was simply saying that there was only one 
As for the relationship of CO2 to temperature:
Ice core analysis:
Perhaps you want to look at the correlation over a younger timescale?
Then we have this data:
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/Correlation_Last_Decade.pdf
This uses the data from the Hadley Centre (Hadley CRUT3v) and the University of Alabama (Hunstville MSU satellite) and shows no relationship with carbon dioxide levels.
As for the rate of change of CO2:
When I was responding to the death about rate of change, I was talking about temperature/climate change, not about CO2 concentrations. I agree that we have released CO2 at a great rate in recent times though I don't see why this should matter.
Quote:
I never got to reply to your opening post, but there are several misinterpreted facts. For example the claim that the earth has been cooling since 1998. That data is based solely on surface temperatures. Is that an indicator of global warming? No. In the long term, what matters is how much heat is gained or lost by the entire planet - what climate scientists call the "top of the atmosphere" radiation budget.
If I have misinterpreted anything, please bring it up. I am not closed to ideas/suggestions/being shown i'm completely wrong.
As for the surface temperatures, I agree that the radiative forcing is what is important, however if people going on about global warming are going to use the average surface temperatures to show warming over a time scale of years, surely it is fair to point out a likewise cooling of the average surface temperatures on a similar timescale?
I was not trying to suggest that because we had cooling after 1998 that there will be no more warming, because that would be a double standard; you can't tell these things on such a time scale.
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Minion
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posted November 26, 2009 07:41 PM |
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Well the Hadley record was exactly what I was talking about, when I spoke about measuring only surface temperatures. This is just to refute the claim that earth is cooling since 1998. The graph however, is accurate.
And a very interesting question indeed and I am sure I can't give a profound answer to that. I can only say that obviously CO2 is not the ONLY thing affecting the climate. There are orbital variations that are a possiblity of causing the ice ages throughout the history of the world. So no, CO2 is not the cause of the end of the ice age (20,000 to 10,000 years ago) Tenperature and CO2 are entwined, both ways actually So yes I was wrong to say earlier that increase in temperature does not give rise to CO2, they seem to affect each other.
However that graph only points that CO2 was not the reason why our last ice age ended! It is by no means a proof that an increase in CO2 does not have a warming effect on climate.
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titaniumalloy
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posted November 27, 2009 06:05 AM |
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It also shows that CO2 rises after temperature, not the other way around.
I'm not saying that CO2 doesn't have an effect on climate, I just think it's overstated. Not so many years ago schoolchildren were taught that carbon dioxide was the naturally occuring lifeblood of plants. Today children are likelier to think of carbon dioxide as a poison.
Concentrations of 380ppm of course means 0.0038% of the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide levels 80m years ago - when our mammalian ancesters were evolving - was at least 1000ppm.
"We're trying to predict climate change 20 to 30 years from now, but it will take us almost the same amount of time for the computer industry to give us fast enough computers to do the job," -Nathan Myhrvold, a polymath who did quantom cosmology research at Cambridge with Stephen Hawking and co-founder of Intellectual Ventures company related to climate science.
Present climate models do not know how to handle water vapour as the major greenhouse gas, and various types of clouds. This is the elephant in the corner of the room.
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TheDeath
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posted November 27, 2009 07:21 PM |
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Quote:
I'm not saying that CO2 doesn't have an effect on climate, I just think it's overstated. Not so many years ago schoolchildren were taught that carbon dioxide was the naturally occuring lifeblood of plants. Today children are likelier to think of carbon dioxide as a poison.
And it's perfectly true. Oxygen is the lifeblood of humans, but it is poison in huge quantities.
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