Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Time Machine - the Carthage issue
Thread: Time Machine - the Carthage issue
baklava
baklava


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
posted August 30, 2009 11:46 AM
Edited by baklava at 21:09, 02 Sep 2009.

Time Machine - the Carthage issue

This is the first of the Time Machine threads. It concerns the First Punic War and events occurring around it.

Historical background

By the middle of the 3rd century BC the Romans had secured the whole of the Italian peninsula. Over the course of the preceding one hundred years, Rome had defeated every rival that stood in the way of their domination of that region.

Carthage considered itself the dominant naval power in the western Mediterranean. It originated as a Phoenician colony in Africa, near modern Tunis, and gradually became the center of a civilization whose hegemony reached along the North African coast and deep in its hinterland, and also included the Balearic Islands, Sardinia, Corsica, a limited area in southern Spain, and the western half of Sicily.

The conflict began after both Rome and Carthage intervened in Messana, the Sicilian city closest to the Italian peninsula.
In 288 BC the Mamertines a group of Italian (Campanian) mercenaries originally hired by Agathocles of Syracuse occupied the city of Messana (modern Messina) in the northeastern tip of Sicily, killing all the men and taking the women as their wives. At the same time a group of Roman troops made up of Campanian "citizens without the vote" also seized control of Rhegium, which lies across the straits on the mainland of Italy. In 270 BC the Romans regained control of Rhegium and severely punished the survivors of the revolt. In Sicily the Mamertines ravaged the countryside and collided with the expanding regional empire of the independent city of Syracuse. Hiero II, tyrant of Syracuse, defeated the Mamertines near Mylae on the Longanus River. Following the defeat at the river Longanus, the Mamertines appealed to both Rome and Carthage for assistance, and acting first the Carthaginians approached Hiero to take no further action and convinced the Mamertines to accept a Carthaginian garrison in Messana. Either unhappy with the prospect of a Carthaginian garrison, or convinced that the recent alliance between Rome and Carthage against Pyrrhus reflected cordial relations between the two, the Mamertines petitioned Rome for an alliance, hoping for more reliable protection. However, the rivalry between Rome and Carthage had grown since the war with Pyrrhus; an alliance with both powers was simply no longer feasible.

A considerable debate took place in Rome on the question of whether to accept the Mamertines' appeal for help, and thus likely enter into a war with Carthage. While the Romans did not wish to come to the aid of soldiers who had unjustly stolen a city from its rightful possessors, and although they were still recovering from the insurrection of Campanian troops at Rhegium in 271, many were also unwilling to see Carthaginian power in Sicily expand even further. Leaving the Carthaginians alone at Messana would give them a free hand to deal with Syracuse; after the Syracusans had been defeated, the Carthaginian takeover of Sicily would essentially be complete.


Consider yourselves senators of Rome; gathered to discuss the possibility of war with Carthage, considering all the options, the pros and cons of that war and reasons for any action.

Pro-war senators:
-Myticus
-Mvassilus
-Delus Diablus
-Darkus Shadus
-Betus

Anti-war senators:
-Azagalus
-Aculius
-Stankelbenetus
-Shyranus
-Dagothus Garus

As you can see, the Pro-War senators are fewer in number for the time being, but that shall be compensated when another player joins the game.

Ladies and gentlemen, you may begin.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted August 30, 2009 02:59 PM

I am mostly appalled by these questions whether we should go to war with these Carthaginian people! Surely, they are no threat, they have no sizeable army, other than the mercenaries they pay for, which, if I may remind you, would most probably have fellow countrymen as well! These people are no threat and, surely, we must look at an older, considerably more dangerous foe on our eastern front: Greece! I say we should not waste our resources on trying to win this slight border confrontation with mere merchants and instead focus on Greece. Alexander died a while ago and the fourth of his leftover kingdoms stands rather weak, now, the breaking down of the foothold in Sicily demonstrates this. We should strike THEM now! We should worry about the traders and their little conflicts in Sicily later. At most, I'd suggest we prolong the conflict there as much as possible, so as to keep their generals, like Hamilcar Barcas occupied. We could send them parts of our coffers or military support in disguise. We know the greeks and our mercenaries will lose in Sicily, unless the self-proclaimed king of sicily could create a stalemate there.

Now, I also think that an alliance with the carthaginians would definitely help us in the long run. They are a trading nation and don't really need a lot of territory in order for them to accomplish much. In fact, large territory doesn't befit them much, since then they won't have as many drop-off points for their products. They'd rather have as many small territories and cover as large an area as they could with this, so the could maximise profit. This war was stricly self-defense, so I doubt they'd make another aggressive move, especially now that their coffers have slowly been depleted. their army consists of every branch of mercenary according to our intelligence. Oh, sure, they'd get some money back with their economy and maybe a little bit would be reinstituted by the capture of Sicily, but in the end they're going to have to pay off a war debt and as long as we can show we have supreme military prowess by, let's say, crushing another nation, the council of theirs wouldn't even dare declare war on us, their benign roman partners in business. After all, Carthage is in a desert-area, they'd much enjoy to trade their refined goods for our food, especially if we cut off other possibilities, like, let's say, Greece. war may not even be necessary between us.

All I'm saying is tht if we play this carefully, we may settle a conflict before it even started and go home with much more romans and gold in our pockets than we would have if we went in direct war with them. I have already given a few examples as to how to prolong the war without showing our direct involvement. Subtlety, gentlemen, is all I ask for. We may even avoid bloodshed.

Furthermore, I am convinced we can live peacefully with these cultured people.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 30, 2009 05:46 PM

We, the Romans, are a peaceful people. From the current situation, it is quite clear that we must have war to have peace. Our Carthaginian friends have been our valuable allies, but now they have fallen under the sway of expansionist delusions.

The Roman Republic is unique in the world for its form of government, which has been blessed by Jove Pater himself. Our Carthaginian friends have fallen under the sway of Mars, whose bloodthirsty zeal for violence is its own end. He cares not for beauty or culture, only destruction. Thus, we must ask him for his blessing, so that we Romans can put the Carthaginian people into their rightful place: as one of our vassal states.

No people has as great a destiny as the Romans to save the world. Senat Populusque Romanus.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
DagothGares
DagothGares


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted August 30, 2009 07:59 PM

Obviously, senator Mvassilus, it was the greeks who were taken over by Mars, since they were clearly the aggressors in this situation, even more, the carthaginians are claiming victory by their side, so they must be blessed by the wise Minerva of wisdom and warfare. Obviously, turning them into vassal states is going to hinder the development of trade andthe welfare it could give us.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted August 30, 2009 09:05 PM

We are the Roman republic.
We already proved our supremacy
The Carthaginian's are strong only in marine battles.
Why waste our resources,Warriors & our time with small time Punic battles?
The Carthaginian's only hire foreign & country people to fight for them!
It's still no match for our army.
They are no threat, we have our own problems with lack of resources.

We can try to send diplomats & try to reason with the Carthaginian's about peace.
We can use the resources.
We can expand our territory as well as having a strong Marine country as well.
It will be hard but with the right persuasive approach, we may not need to fight.
We burned, raped & destroyed enough civilizations!!!
No need to lose our warriors in marine battles.



____________
Dreaming of a Better World

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Darkshadow
Darkshadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted August 30, 2009 09:15 PM
Edited by Darkshadow at 21:16, 30 Aug 2009.

I would like to say that We could have both wars at once.

Obviously the Barbaric Carthaginians need to be destroyed, If we allow them to continue existence they could build a military far mightier than ours, since they already are a stronger position in the waters, there would be nothing to stop them if we didn't start the war!And now imagine what would happen with our Legions in the East...

That brings me to the fact that Greece cannot be allowed to revive itself, for all we know there could be a next Alexander on the gates of Rome before we even know it.We must strike now when country is not strong as it could be.

And since we don't have enough men to spare on conquests to both, East and South, I propose that first we do a surprise attack on the Greeks at their northern border and then advancing all way to Athens.All this while a Mercenaries from Persia and Egypt would hold up Carthaginians until the Greek army has been beaten, then turn our Legions to South.

This could save us valuable soldiers, of course it would cost but that is the necessity for war, we could of course, pillage the Carthaginian treasury to fund back the war.I would also like to remind Senator Dagothus that if we did trade with them, it would bring them resources necessary to strengthen their army, and we all know that is the only thing Barbarian civilizations want.

(note:Hope I didn't be too much of a warlord here )
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
stankelbenet
stankelbenet


Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
posted August 30, 2009 10:13 PM

Rome has accomplished much in the past. We have made alliances with all the city states of Italy. We've conquered the north. We've enstrengthend our economy as well as our military. We've spread our glorious culture to our neighbours.

We know that Carthage now sees us as a threat to their naval supremacy. Couldn't that be the reason that they are provoking this war? Our navy is small compared to theirs and we wouldn't stand a chance right now. Everything we've built and especially our alliances could be torn apart if we are too hasty. I too want Carthage destroyed but we must wait until we have the naval means of battling them.

If we go to war now we will surely lose.

Another plan could be to use their former arch enemy against them: Greece. Greece and Cathage have been rivals since the very beginning and to provoke a war between them wouldn't be too hard.
Rome should not fight this war

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 31, 2009 06:35 AM

Garus:
Mars bestows his mixed blessing on many a people. While it is true that the Greek colonists have borne a clear mark of his influence, he is currently inciting the Carthaginians to actions that would make them go beyond their role in life.

We all have our social stations. Slaves serve, women manage the household, and men control the public sphere. It is as it should be. So it is among peoples: it is the destiny of the Roman Republic - with its unique people and traditions - to rule the world. It is the destiny of the Carthaginians to be a Roman vassal. They need to embrace their role. Any attempt to change destiny will only inspire the Fates to cut the thread of life.

Stankelbenetus:
In theory, I would agree with you. In practice, however, we must not forget that there is significant bad blood between the Greeks and ourselves. The Syracusans are much more wont to ally with the Carthaginians, in hopes that the old status quo would be mostly restored.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted August 31, 2009 06:52 AM

We need to listen to reason.
We need to follow the Goddess of love.
Venus was also honored in the temple of Mars.
Not to mention she was also a lover of mars, which gives her the upper hand!
We do not need war. We need Love!
We need to love thy neighbors!
We need to make Peace with our Enemies & possibly friends later on?


____________
Dreaming of a Better World

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted August 31, 2009 07:10 AM

If we leave the Carthaginians to do as they please, then we might find ourselves fighting a two sided war.  What makes anybody think they will be satisfied with their current conquests?  Should we go to war with Greece, they might see this as a opening to expand even further!  No!  *slams hand on table*  We MUST let them know that while we value them as allies we will not tolerate this act.  We should strike fast, strike hard, and then our people can rest.  Make it decisive, so that others will see that we are not weak.

The only way to peace is through war.  I submit to you that we show the world that while we may be tired and battered, that we are still strong.  We will not waver, we will not yeild, and we will do what is neccessary to ensure our peoples safety.  Let there be no doubt, no questioning.  Ring it out with a loud voice, a thunderous voice.  WE ARE STILL STRONG.
____________
Message received.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
mvassilev
mvassilev


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted August 31, 2009 07:13 AM

Aculius:
It is out of love for the Carthaginians that this war needs to be fought in the first place! We don't want them to be consigned to eternal torture just because they stepped outside their bounds.
____________
Eccentric Opinion

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
stankelbenet
stankelbenet


Adventuring Hero
bringer of nostalgia & darknes
posted August 31, 2009 03:11 PM

Mvassilus; though the destiny of the carthaginians is to be a vassal of Rome, Rome could as well be a vassal of the Carthaginians. Bravery and courage are not enough to win a war. Military is neccessary too! As long as our navy remains inferior we will lose.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted September 01, 2009 10:47 PM

My dear equals, we got a issue at hand. Can we let anything that could have any real potential to hurt us all to grow? I think not.
If we act now, we should be able to stop them before any harm to us could be done, it is really a choice of 2 evils.
Either we deal with our main problem at hand, but then THEY will have turned into a danger for us. If we deal with them now, at the least we still can do something about the main issue we are working on. Of course, dealing with them would render us weaker to successfully do anything about our main issue. But we should still be able to complete it, for it is the lesser danger.

____________



 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Mytical
Mytical


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted September 02, 2009 07:45 AM

While one of our members have brought up a very interesting counter argument dealing with the naval armada, we have the element of suprise if we act swiftly.  We might be even be able to turn that to our advantage.  A swift strike at their ports, at night, taking their ships to use for our purposes.  By going to war, we will actually add to our strength I believe.  If we act quickly, silently, and intelligently.
____________
Message received.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted September 02, 2009 04:26 PM

This is Pointless.
All we are doing is adding to our reputation of how ruthless we are!
Have we not had enough bloodshed!!
Other countries will look at us as our enemy!

We need to show the other countries that we can be peaceful also!
We already proved to be a powerful nation!
If we conquer our neighbor, other countries will despise us.
We need to use other countries, not destroy them.

If we stop invading their land & only send An Embassy, we might be able to avoid some hostility!
____________
Dreaming of a Better World

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
B-E-T-A
B-E-T-A


Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
posted September 08, 2009 09:37 PM

I cannot believe this! What are we? A blabbering bunch of old aunties talking about slave trade, jewelry and latest gossips?
No, we are the roman senate, and we should be able to reach a conclusion with ease.
Yet here we are, talking about wether or not the Carthagens have really made and act of war or not, when it is absolutely clear that they have made one!
Now, not only have I seen what many of you have failed to see. No... while you were blabbering about this most agressivly rude and hostile act. I have already made a plan for how to take them down!
Remember, my good romans, that their army contains hordes of mercaneries. And as we all know, mercaneries fight for gold. gold that Rome has piles on piles of! I say that we send this...emisarry to the carthagen, make them act like they want to have a peaceful diplomatic discussion with the carthagens. But while they are there, they contact the leader of the mercaneries and offers gold to them to backstab the carthagens. After they accept, we will send one legion of romans to march against the carthagens. This will surely lull the carthagens into a false sense of security and we will therefore catch them offguard. Then when the battle begin, our Legion and mercanery friends will take care of the carthagens.
If we do it like this, not only will we spare us an uneccesary war, but we will also not waste many men or resources on the carthagens and will be fully able to concentrate on our greatest enemy, the greek.
____________
There is no good or evil, only madness. The question is "Just how mad are you?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 09, 2009 03:29 AM

Think of the Taxable income we may achieve if we merely build up our trade relations. Yes, plunder may help in the short run of things, but is the long term stability of our great people not what is the soundest for the empire?

We need not go to war to become the greatest economic power the world has ever seen. Carthage is one of the greatest military powers the world has ever seen, must we go to Pyrrhic victory against them and lose the very core of our economic system? Lasting victory is untenable against such odds.

Nay, we Romans are too proud and too smart a people to throw away all we have worked toward just to lose it now. We have a chance at true greatness, and biding our time until the then is exactly what the Gods desire for us.
____________
Youtube has terminated my account without reason.

Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
B-E-T-A
B-E-T-A


Promising
Legendary Hero
Guess Who is Back?
posted September 09, 2009 05:59 PM

Senator Shyranus, you speak of Pride, yet your words are not filled with pride. You speak of cunning yet do not see the sign this idea of your will go.
For it is because of our pride as true romans that we must go to war against the carthagens! For if we do not retaliate to this act, what will that say about our pride? Are we just gonna let it go? What will that tell our fellow romans? What sign will that give our enemies?
"The great Roman Empire is fearful of a ragged little sea country that is based on trade?" is what it would say and then they would all come down crashing on us at once! We will be fighting not only the Carthagens and greeks, but all of our enemies from the past. Enemy armies everywhere, battles at every border, thousands on thousands of good roman citizens and soldiers dead, and in the enemy will march, into our great nation, into our great city, into this very building! Our great culture would be left in ruin! That is the fate I predict for us if we do not retalite now!
No dear Senator Shyranus, it is neither smart or prideful to cower in fear for this enemy, especially since we got the greatest army and the most resources. We are the best and we have the gods on our side! We cannot lose this war even if we tried to!
____________
There is no good or evil, only madness. The question is "Just how mad are you?"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Shyranis
Shyranis


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 12, 2009 08:56 PM

Master Betus, do you not see the pride the Roman commoner has for his Republic? Do you not see the smiles of the Children as they relish in the teaching that we are the greatest civilization to ever exist? Why throw it away?

Do you not hear the whispers from out emissaries? The Greeks poison the thoughts of the people of Sicily against us. We will find our selves mired in an insurgency that could last a hundred years! We must find time to work our diplomatic muscles, we must spread proper word of our intentions before we go into any conflict. I know the desire for more slaves and plunder is stronger in some, but we must bide our time if we are to truly master all.
____________
Youtube has terminated my account without reason.

Please express why it should be reinstated on
Twitter.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread »
Post New Poll Post New Topic Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0639 seconds