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| Thread: Capitol vs Creatures analysis | |
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 10:22 AM |
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Capitol vs Creatures analysis
It's allways touchy topic and many times cause of flame war between online / offline players. Between really good ones and "I think I'm good one players". I don't want to be rude to anyone so:
what will I assume in my analysis:
- Capitol first player will be called Economist
- Creatures first player will be called Warlord
- I will assume that BOTH are good enough in playing vs map, so know how to take out crypts and conservatories early, both are used to chaining (so they need the same army to take out same guards)...
- I will set up various map conditions
- I will take analysis about steps they
- They will play the same town - Stronghold (it CAN be applied to any town, I picked 1 just beacuse of build order from my previous post)
- analysis will be done with keeping in mind Large random template, medium rich, no under, various guards (angelitos fiesta)
- I will explain common diferencies, if some setting change but overall it's the same on allmost every map
- they will start with 20 000g in the beginig (staring will less just make it slower in the beging, starting with 0 make a diference but not that much)
- lvl 2 dwelling prebuild
Map conditions:
- medium large starting area with 1x sawmill(unguarded), 1x ore pit(unguarded), 2x gold mine(lvl 3-4 guards), no high level dweling, lvl 1-4 guards overall.
- First road leads to heavy block (lvl 7 creatures) with treasure area full of relics, high lvl artefats, dragon utopias.
- Second road leads to medium area with second town (necropolis), with medium richness, all resource mines except gold ones. Second road is blocked by lvl 5 creatures.
- total resources in starting area: 30 000g + 2 gold mines
- total resources in medium area: 60 000g + 1 town
- total resources in rich area: 200 000g
Analysis day by day:
day one:
They both get close resources and fist exploration. Orcs do not give much advantage as there is nothing harder to fight with. (only weak slow units which can be outmaneuvered anyway and they probably have some nice lvl 2-3 units from first 2 tavern heroes).
Economist
expenses: 19000g
town hall (2500g), 6 heroes (15000g), creatures (600+900=1500g)
income: 7500g
1/4 of area (7500g)
gold left: 8500g
Warlord
expenses: 17500g
orc tower (1000g), 6 heroes (15000g), creatures (600+900+1050=2550g)
income: 7500g
1/4 of area (7500g)
gold left: 9 250g
day two:
Both collect another 1/4 or starting area, but due to creature advantage warlord gets 1st mine. Second was just far enough so cann't be chained in 1 day at the begining.
Economist
expenses: 500g
marketplace (500g)
income: 8500
1/4 of area 7500g + 1000g (town hall)
gold left: 16000g
Warlord
expenses: 9300g
cliff nest (2500g), rocks (1800g), 2 more hearoes to better chain new rocks (5000g)
income: 8000g
1/4 of area (7500g) + 500g (wilage hall)
gold left: 7950g
day tree:
They both take out 1/4 of resources but once again warlord takes second mine and medium block guards. Warlord also prepares some heroes to enter medium area.
Economist
expenses: 2000g
mage guild (2000g)
income: 8500g
1/4 of area (7500g) + 1000g (town hall)
gold left: 22 500g
Warlord
expenses: 11500g
behemoth's lair (10000g), behemoth (1500g)
income: 9000g
1/4 of area (7500g) + 500g (wilage hall) + 1000g (mine)
gold left: 5450g
day four:
Economist take out rest of the starting area but no mines (they are hard for starting units), no medium block. Warlord starts his expansion in medium area in 2 ways - resources and he is heading for second town. He can have nice 2 squads (1 with behemoth + folder, 1 whith rocs, orcs, ogres + folder)
Economist
expenses: 1000g
blacksmith (1000g)
income: 8000g
1/4 of area (7500g)
gold left: 29 500g
Warlord
expenses: 2000g
ogre fort (2000g) (does not buy ogres now, they are slow and have no use in this stage, also there are no heroes to chain them)
income: 16 000g
1/4 of area (7500g) + 500g (wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) + 1/10 of medium area (6000g)
gold left: 21 450g
day five:
Economist heroes have nothing to do without better army so he gets fast turn. Warlord is in the heat of battle for new resources and town. He does his best to get enough crystal for behemoth upgrade.
Economist
expenses: 5000g
city hall (5000g)
income: 1000g
Area is cleared, but he cann't take out mines or medium block as he does not have army that is strong enough. You remember that it needs rocs and orcs to take the mines.
gold left: 25 500g
Warlord
expenses: 5500g
citadel (2500g), 2nd town mage guild (2000g), 2 spellbooks (1000g)
income: 14500g
500g (wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) + 2/10 of medium area (12000g) (he have more heroes here now and can do better chaining)
gold left: 30 450g
day six:
Economist turn ends, he is planing to get gold mines and invade medium area next week.
Warlord gets enough resources to upgrade behemoth's lair, his main hero got expert earth and he got slow in second town so he is quite happy, widraws from medium area with majority of his heroes and prepares for next week, where he plans to take out heavy block.
(in case he is missing something he can stay in this area for next 2 days and use retreat teleport to main town - 2500g)
Economist
expenses:2500g g
citadel (2500)g
income: 2000g
2000g (city hall)
gold left: 25 000g
Warlord
expenses: 21 500g
castle (5000g) + 2 more spellbooks (1000g), upgrade behemoth's lair (15000g), market place in second town (500g)
income: 15 000g
1000g (2x wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) + 2/10 of medium area (12000g)
gold left: 23 950g
day seven:
Economist have nothing to do. Warlord sets up chain and prepare his heroes for hard block.
Economist
expenses:5000g g
castle (5000)g
income: 2000g
2000g (city hall)
gold left: 22 000g
Warlord
expenses: 3800g
upgrade cliff nest (2000g), upgrade rocs(300g) and behemoth(1500g), mage guild lvl 2 (in second town)
income: 3000g
1000g (2x wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) (no income from medium are as he widrawed)
gold left: 22 650g
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
week 2:
All guards grow up a little.
day one:
Economist buys new creatures and 2 new heroes. He have now enough army to take out mines, maybe even medium block but with much greater looses.
Warlord upgrade ogres, buys all creatures and destroys hard block. (His army is now 9x thunderbirs, 3x acient behemoth, 12x ogre magi, rest is considered folder now or got up killed)
Economist
expenses:18000g
capitol (10000g), creatures (3000g), 2 more heroes (for creatures) 5000g
income: 2000g
2000g (city hall)
gold left: 30 000g
Warlord
expenses: 22100g
upgrade ogre fort (2000g), buy out all creatures (20 100g)
income: 3000g
1000g (2x wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) (no income from medium are as he widrawed), 0 from rich area as he got "only" artefacts closeby to block
gold left: 3 550g
day two:
Economis buys orc tower (he is 8 days behind compared to warlord). He is not able to fight in medium area he gets rocs.
Warlord is exploring rich area fighting weaker groups (in relative terms as have mass slow), does not fight utopias because he is planning to break into Economist area and wipe him out, he does not want to loose any of his Behemoths or Thunderbirds.
Economist
expenses:2050g
orc tower (1000g), orcs (1050g)
income: 7000g
5000g (capitol), 2000g (mines)
gold left: 35 000g
Warlord
expenses: 1000g
upgrade orc tower (1000g),
income: 3000g
1000g (2x wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) 1/20 from rich area (10 000g)
gold left: 12 550g
day tree:
Economist
expenses:4300g
cliff nest (2500g), rocks (1800g)
income: 13000g
5000g (capitol), 2000g (mines), 1/10 of medium area (6000g)
gold left: 43 700g
Warlord
expenses: 1000g
upgrade wolf pen (1000g),
income: 12000g
1000g (2x wilage hall) + 2000g (mine) 1/20 from rich area (10 000g)
gold left: 24 550g
STOP:
In case I find it really necessary I will continue later. But how will game go on? Warlord takes all easier fights in rich area, so he takes a lot of strong artefats and prepares to break out hard block to Economist area.
If he can do that in week 2 he autowins because 3 rocks + 1 behemoth cann't stand agains 9 Thunderbirds + 3 Ancient behemoths. If he delays for whatever reason untill week 3 there is good chance to meet eiter in rich area (he can wait for economist hidden after hard block and suprprise him or he breaks into his area and wipe him out, because Economist army is 9x Thunderbird, 3x Ancient behemoth + some nonupgraded units against, 14x Thunderbirds, 5x Ancient behemoth + fully upgraded week of lesser troops (rest died in rich area). Warlords main hero is also about 10 levels higher and about 5-10 higher in stats because of artefats from rich area.
moral of the story:
During first week Economist had nothing to do several days and sits on his pile of gold.
Warlord fights hard for resources his account balance goes up and down but he STILL have enough to support his expanding army. His hero is leveling faster, he gets better map knowledge, can plan more and gets more artefats. His income comes from fighting the map and it's not less but in allmost every cases greater comparing to income from capitol.
BUT:
1) You set up conditions in favour of Warlord!
No I did not. Any map can be played in such way, there will be only minor delays in warlord strategy.
2) If map is richer!
Warlord wins, because he gets more for his fights which Economist just cann't do as his army does not have enough creatures.
3) If the map is poorer!
It depends Warlord had allways from 5k-20k gold reserve. All he need to do is fight more for the same amount. Even if he have to wait to week 2 to be able fight the map he will be able to fight for resources sooner compared to Economist, because he will have more creatures week 2 and he get his money than. On the other hand Economist will have gold but he will start gathering resources at week 3 because he will lack creatures that can be bought.
4) If you start with less gold in the begining.
Both just buy less heroes and first zone exploring is a bit slower first days, but you will catch up later when you buy rest of your heroes.
5) Very low starting gold (impossible+poorer map)
In this case Explorer have problems to get capitol at all. Warlord probably buys city hall (as it is cheap requirements wise), and marketplace. He trades off everything but crystal. In most cases he still be able to buy Behemoth cave week 1 (as starting area have up to 15k gold + city hall), maybe he will have to delay his castle so he gets only 2 ancient behemoths week 2.
6) But I tryed to be a Warlord and it just does not work!
You have to learn how to fight map. Read library here. There are great topics how to figh agains map. How to take out crypts, medusa stores, or even dragon utopias early and with minimum looses (important creatures wise). There are hints here how to fight with 1 angel agains hundreds of magogs, how to kill tens of mighty gorgons with 1 hydra + some folder ond much more. Just have a look at sticky posts.
Discuss.
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xlnt
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 11:02 AM |
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1 thing: no Stronghold player will start with Orcs day one when Wolves are pre-build, everyone would get the 3 Rocks.
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 12:08 PM |
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Yes you are right. Warlord does not do his best possible in above example.
He also could do poor man's town portal trick to save time and clear more of medium area. If he is good enough he could take out dragon's utopia by forcing dragons to kill themselves.
Let's just consider that he did a "mistake".
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 01:49 PM |
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I fail to see the problem - with a setup like that there is no reason to go the economist way - it's a waste of valuable time and potential troops.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted November 05, 2009 02:06 PM |
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Edited by Shares at 14:11, 05 Nov 2009.
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Economists has a slow and safe gameplay. Offcourse that wont pay of in a rich and fast map. Playing an XL, underground map with few resources would make it very hard for the warlord, as the economist wouldn't be affected that much. Or if there's very strong guards, that would also longen the game to the economists advantage, but as long as it's easy to buy creatures to earn money, why get a lot of money? If buying creatures for 10k would earn 20k in a week, it'd be stupid to pay 10k for an income giving 20k in ten days.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 02:27 PM |
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Not to mention that there are two gold mines in the immediate vicinity, and every day the Warlord takes them earlier will earn him the money he misses out in City Hall versus Town Hall and so on.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted November 05, 2009 02:40 PM |
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1) 95% of good players will not play on 100% diff level (20k gold from start) because of different reasons. Try to make calculation at least for 130% diff.
2) Warlord will buy 8 heroes in described situation and will open map VERY FAST
3) If there was any reasonable chance of win for Economist, then people would definitely use this strategy from time to time. Can you name any good player who uses this strategy?
____________
I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 05, 2009 08:59 PM |
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Capitol first builders will not be called Ecologists, but newbies 
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 03:51 AM |
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Have you tried factoring in what would happen to the warlord in an impossible game with lots of computer players in it?
Of course almost no one plays with computer players, and "warlord"-style is best when playing with humans. Consider however that the economist strat did come to be because it works very well against computer players, who won't attack anyone with castles early game and will have insane armies in the first few weeks. "Warlord" strat still does work in these conditions, but is riskier.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 07:30 AM |
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Getting at least some creature buildings week 1 was never wrong, no matter under what conditions i played...
If the map is so poor that you can't afford anything, capitol builders are usually screwed as well, as they still lack the resources on 200%.
But creature builders have the chance to at least flag some mines and fight for something...
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 08:11 AM |
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@Shares
Send me a map which you consider favouring to the Economist and I will count down areas and the resources there. Only 1 thing: It cann't be completely barren because that is just boring.
I do not remember exact gold ranges for all buildings, crypts, gold piles, medusa stores, imp caches, ... But I'm pretty sure, that 20k gold isn't that much as you think.
@JollyJoker
That gold mine can be "hidden" after some medium stack of guard in the forest and you just cann't find it without fighting them because it's just out of your scouting range. So if you are not building creatures first you will find out that you missed that mine during week 2. As Economist you just don't know that much about map.
@ Sag
1) Good point. I will do that.
2) Yes in my example warlord was rather slow. I was counting him to be "I know basic tricks Joe" not the "I'm really good one". He was playing quite safely.
3) No I do not know any, because Economist strategy sux. I'm trying to show that even when Economist is as good in clearing the map (which isn't true because than he has no reason to go for capitol first) as Warlord that 8-9 days is just way too much.
@Scythesong
Unless you have map specially designed to favour computer players even medium skilled human opponent is way better. When something works against human it works against computers as well. When there are a lot of computers around you just start with some strong hero(Bron, Shakti..), buy creatures and kill them day 2-3.
Economist strat comes because it let's you win against computer even when you are bad. If you are playing like warlord you are not wasting your turns. Fighting the map gives you more gold, more xp, more artefacts. Yes, Economist strat works well against computer, but Warlord strat works even better. It just needs you to play the game better.
To all that think:
- Week 2, week 3 is just too soon to meet.
No it isn't.(Actually it's several hours of play) Playing 3-4 months game can be fun when you play single player, because you just click end of turn several times in row and do not notice it. When you play against human and allmost every turn takes 10-20 minutes than you see that 7 turns means you are waiting more than 1 hour while your opponent is playing and you get bored.
Even in my example Economist days 5,6,7 takes like 2 minutes together. But Warlords days 5,6,7 takes 30+ minutes.
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SAG
Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
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posted November 06, 2009 09:57 AM |
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what is the objective of this thread?
If you wanna show some extremely rare situation where Economist strategy may be better, then I would believe that such situation may exist. Just make special fixed map or special template for this. However I don't think that people will find this map or template interesting.
If you wanna show, that novice or average player may win with any strategy vs comp - then I will not argue too. Comp is very predictible and not a strong opponent.
If you wanna show, that novice or average player may win with any strategy vs another novice or average player - then I will not argue too. Such players just avoid any risk because they don't have enough game knowledge, so they will waste a lot time doing nothing.
If you wanna show, that good player may win with Economist strategy vs another good player on common map or template, then I will disagree.
____________
I play HoMM3 at www.heroes-
III.com
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 10:19 AM |
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Maps with lots of fights and challenge = fun map
Maps with no fights, no resources, no guarded mines, no blocks, no special buildings, no level 5+ dwells = boring = capital, sure why not, nothing better to do
Yes, you CAN make a map where capital might be the best way to go, but you can also make a map where eagle eye is the most important skill.
This isn't about single vs multi player, it's not about random vs fixed maps, or about open vs closed maps, or about small vs large, or about rich vs poor maps, or 100% vs 200%. Capital first is NOT a good strategy on any of them.
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matkov
Hired Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 12:00 PM |
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Quote:
This isn't about single vs multi player, it's not about random vs fixed maps, or about open vs closed maps, or about small vs large, or about rich vs poor maps, or 100% vs 200%. Capital first is NOT a good strategy on any of them.
I want to put some numbers to prove this. Not just words but numbers.
Offline players often do not see how superior Warlord strategy is.
Some of them come here open minded and learn a lot. Some of them come here with bad habits and/or scepticism. This posts do not magicaly turn their thinking but maybe they start question their strategy (at least some of them) and help them in the end. I think that is the purpose of this library.
Long time ago I was one of them as well. I played at impossible, did campaign and though how good am I. I played hotline and TCP games and won all of them. Than I came here and read carefully. I'm open minded to new strategies so I tryed warlord style and discover diferencies by myself. It's really superior even for "average joe". It was really fun to do campaign once again using warlord strategy. Suddenly I finished all the maps in half time or even faster.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 02:36 PM |
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Hehe well the reason is simple..."economist" does *not* mean more money. This is what unexperienced players fail to realize.
First of all there are the costs to build everything up to the capitol.
Those are immense if you cannot fight much (and you usually can't without higher level creatures)...i think 22.500 in total.
Building a capitol doesn't pay off until at least 1 week has passed.
Getting creatures can pay off the same day you build them (2 Efreets with Inferno are the prime example, as the starting army usually sucks).
While capitol builders still wait for their money to be returned, the creature builder started making his hero stronger already, and drained the gold/resources he needs from the map.
A more interesting question would be: Do you build a capitol week 2 in most of your games, or do you upgrade important creatures/mage guild etc.?
Personally even in ToH games i rarely ever built a capitol.
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shamanis
Tavern Dweller
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posted November 06, 2009 04:59 PM |
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Interesting research. Actually it is my habit to go capitol first. My second habit is to always take xp from treasury boxes.
Now I see I might get it all wrong 
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 06:25 PM |
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Quote:
Economist strat comes because it let's you win against computer even when you are bad. If you are playing like warlord you are not wasting your turns. Fighting the map gives you more gold, more xp, more artefacts. Yes, Economist strat works well against computer, but Warlord strat works even better. It just needs you to play the game better.
That's the whole point with the economist, playing safe. With Warlord there's just a higher risk-higher gains factor involved. While the economist stays in his town safe because the AI doesn't attack castles in early game, for example, your hero will be constantly under attack by heroes who will chip down your army's numbers, retreat and come back with bigger and bigger armies (computer starts with more resources). It doesn't help that AI leans towards attacking the player with the weaker town, so you will probably have more than one computer player knocking on your doorstep.
Of course you can take risks and depending on the map you might stumble upon something like the Chains of War or a nearby unguarded town or crypts or bastions or utopia... point is you can still win the game, but you have to deal with unpredictable stuff.
I'm not making an example of a "special" map or "special" situation. If you had played against computer opponents on impossible on "classic maps" before playing vs players then the scenario will be familiar. Economist strats (ie, capitol-castle asap strats) work very well here.
It is an inferior strat against human players because it was never meant against them.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 06:31 PM |
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You are mixing up two points here, Capitol and Castle...
what makes you think a creature builder doesn´t want a Castle?
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scythesong
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 06:36 PM |
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Don't confuse things. Warlord build castles yes, but not with the same priority economists have on building one (because castle just happens to be a requirement for capitol, yes?).
Summing up what I meant, Economist vs Warlord on human player vs player does not makes sense. The former strat was made for computer players. Obviously, economist loses.
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Casihasi
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2009 06:37 PM |
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Well i disagree, lets take dungeon or Rampart as example...usually cannot get Dragons early, so i want Mantis/Minos/Castle.
Castle has a high priority with many towns.
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