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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Adventure Map: The Hidden Land of Heroes IV
Thread: Adventure Map: The Hidden Land of Heroes IV This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · «PREV
Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted January 27, 2002 01:13 PM
Edited By: Linkki on 27 Jan 2002

There is very little information that we can be completely sure, like the topic about the mines. So in that case, I have said that the information is confirmed (that is, recent information from a developer).

All the other topics are more or less speculation, since the game is naturally prone to changes until it is finished. If you want as solid facts as you can get, you should scout around the sites with previews from the game, not the forums. There are so many sources that citing the information is pretty big a trouble. What I'm trying to do here is reply to other people's posts to either tell my most logical guess or correct them with the info I've read. Anyways, none of my info is just wild guesses.

In my opinion, the best source of HoMM4 info is celestialheavens.com

PS. Even Hydra speculated in his posts.

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted January 27, 2002 05:05 PM bonus applied.

speculation

Yes, much of this thread, as well as the battle effects thread, is speculation.  I understood that from the beginning and assumed it was clear.  Of course, assumptions can be wrong!

Some of us just like speculating on things, and H4 is one of our favorite things to speculate on.  Yes, I am sure lots of our opinions will be incorrect when the game comes out, but since it isn't out yet, this is as close as we can come to playing it.

We have seen the new fog of war in action in the videos that have been released so far, so it is clear that at this time, some structures other than towns remove the fog.  Another thing I noticed is that hills block it.  Now my question would be if being on top of the hill increases the distance you can see.  It makes sense to me, but we may not know until the game comes out for sure.

Waterwheels and windmills will now be flagged and give you their benefit automatically at the end of each week.  I am pretty sure that one of the structures I saw that removed FoW in the video was a windmill, so this seems to indicate that flagged structures will do so, but it could be only certain ones too.
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 28, 2002 03:52 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 29 Jan 2002

Speculation and New Thoughts

Thankyou very much for that unique response, AncientOne, it gives us a new perspective on the way that we post in this particular forum. Although, I can see one reason why members use words such as 'I think' and 'Maybe' in posts such as these. As Linkki said, the information from the interviews we receive is not set in stone, and there is a possibility to change with time, since the game is still in testing as far as we know. If you commit yourself to an idea or 'fact' in an interview, it may be held against you in later terms. So I think it is best to make yourself open to change, and say the words like 'Possibly' and 'There's a good chance'. We cannot really confirm any of the new information we hear, as it can change.

Caravans:
Here, I agree with Djive, that the caravans should be practically 'invisible', as the creatures in the army no longer have the freedom of movement, and are now controlled by another object, and I think that should be enough to make caravans unnoticed.
My feelings about caravans and their structure is that the structure would have to be built in order to house the caravans that are brought in from other castles. Since there would be no other place to keep a caravan, I think if you only have one structure, you won't be able to send it over. Since you can keep caravans in structures, i would have it as a guess you can keep using them, and swapping them from castle to castle.

Mines:
Taking the information displayed by Linkki, it seems there are four mines, each inexhaustible, apart from the one possibly stated as an event item. But I think the ‘buildable’ mines must have to have a base on what resource it produces, as from one of the old interviews, it stated that in order for resources to add to your inventory, a mine must be built. So I think that's where the ‘buildable’ mine option arises. Although there is the option of using pre built mines instead.

Fog Of War and Flagged Objects:

Hmmmm. This is quite interesting indeed. It is now 'apparent' that flagged mines and objects now constitute as Fog of War eliminators. So having mines in your possession will now bring at least two benefits we now know of. Of course, as Djive pointed out, having a castle situated on top of a mountain would eliminate more of the Fog of War than a mine situated on a level plane. (I actually didn't have the modem capabilities to view any videos) So from Tristan’s knowledge, mountains induce Fog of War. But I feel that if a castle is there, it would remove it further, as you would have the capabilities of seeing further into the distance, and therefore, revealing more of the Fog of War.
I believe that having Windmills and Waterwheels flagged is a great idea, as it saves you the extra trip of going there every week. And sometimes this means missing out on the valuable resources.

My thoughts on Undulations on the map:
Well, my thoughts on this particular aspect of the game is that undulations can help or hinder your progress. I would think that climbing up a  slope takes more movement points, and going down one, takes less. So, it evens out. But they can also induce Fog of War, so the better innovation is to place a Castle or Watchtower on top of one, to transform very bad into very good. So the reprecussions are quite equal.

"PS. Even Hydra speculated in his posts. "

Yes, I think that speculating is vital, as you can get more possibilities and ideas on one topic, as you keep an open mind about it, enabling you to keep suggestions open. Of course, speculate is the only thing we can really be sure about, if we're talking about this new information that we are.
Great posting everyone.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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ZeD
ZeD


Hired Hero
Master of The Templars
posted January 29, 2002 09:40 AM

WoW!!

Phew, I hardly had the time to read through all this two-side long post. But I did, and when I'm done I am truly sorry i do not have anything interesting to say except for the fac that Hydra should be a writer or such because his posts are like novels. Maybe I will come up with something to post so maybe you will see my name in this thread once again.....

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Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted January 29, 2002 11:09 AM bonus applied.
Edited By: Linkki on 29 Jan 2002

The problem with forums are, that usually people (myself included) do not think so much about how they write. I am extremely glad that this thread has remained very civil with a great deal of information and reasonable speculation about the topic. A special thanks to the author Hydra and Tristan for contributing much to this thread. Now to the topic itself:

Waterwheels, windmills:
This would be another excellent move from NWC. This makes these two buildings more vital strategically. We will have to adapt ourselves into yet another new system, as these two new buildings might be the decisive factor in the result of a scenario.
It also gives mapmakers the option to reduce the number of mines, thus making maps vary more in style. I like this, being a mapmaker that I am.

Caravans:
The subject of whether you need the caravan built at one or both ends, seems to be still open. I have always thought that the caravan building is like the shipyard, but with no cost in forming a caravan. I'm leaning toward the side that you need the caravan structure built only in the town from which you want to send units elsewhere, as the caravan  disforms after it has reached it's destination. Of course I can be wrong. There is no info about this anywhere.

Mines:
Yes, I believe the buildable mines do have to have a gold vein or the like, so you cannot choose what kind of a mine you build.

Fog of War and undulations:
In some of the screenshots you can see that not even a town can uncover the lands behind unpassable mountains, so this gives mapmakers another great deal of variation options. You no longer have to make square shaped maps that end to the 'edge of the world'. I think the whole concept of this new Fog of War system is great. Whether slopes slow you down or not, it is the same to me. If they do, slopes can make a the position of different landmarks more strategic. On the other side this can make uphill movement more tedious.

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted January 29, 2002 07:39 PM

Offtopic: Bonuses applied

I have to admit, I've been curious as all get out about some of the adventure map we've seen in the various screenshot.

This thread is a sterling example of the sort of dicussions I'm fond of seeing here on the Altar, and several bonuses have been applied, not so much for individual posts as for the quality of the thread as a whole. Keep up the great work, one and all.

(PS: Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! )
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Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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DonGio
DonGio


Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
posted January 30, 2002 12:56 PM

Hi all, I promised Hydra I would try to post something here, so here goes nothing!

Caravans: What puzzles me here is the (whaddayacallit) "reason" caravans were introduced in the game. I thought it was a way of negating hero chains. But if the creatures can only be transported from one town to another, I think people will continue using hero chains (only they will just be chains now, as you don't need heroes with every army).

Maybe it is because it's too complicated with a hero that moves and stuff, I don't know.

Mines: It would make sense if they removed FoW when flagged, cause there are bound to be people there, with eyes, who can see what's going on. So maybe locations that would require some kind of operation by people (not creatures in the game, mind you, only like the windmill would need a milling guy to mill stuff) remove FoW, and locations that don't, don't?
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Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted January 30, 2002 01:31 PM
Edited By: Linkki on 30 Jan 2002

FoW:
Yes that's pretty much what we've ended up with here. The flagged objects (all contain some workers or creatures as in dwellings) all remove some fow. Not much though, but a bit.

Caravans and mules:
I think the way caravans will most presumably work in HoMM4 is good. You can transport troops from the far-away towns to the front line (town), where the army sent there disembarks for battle. During the short distance between the destination army and the former caravan troops must be travelled on foot with the risk of being attacked, or then the main army myst return to the town to merge with the newly arrived recruits. It's pretty much as in war - you send the troops with airplanes from far away, when it becomes too dangerous for the plane to go any further, it drops the troops and returns to base.
I hope I cleared my point here.

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Conn
Conn


Responsible
Famous Hero
God slayer
posted January 30, 2002 10:23 PM


WOW! Very interesting posts here.

OK, onto the topic...Well, sort of. I was reading hydra's
first post(the part about terraine elevation) and i wonder something: maybe in combat elevated terraine could be much more important. Like archers could shoot for a longer distance before being penalized for it? Or, maybe a unit placed on higher terraine could receive a defense bonus? I know that this is not precisely on topic, but i thought it fits in here better than starting a new thread. I would appreciate your oppinions...
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted January 31, 2002 01:18 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 3 Feb 2002

Conclusion on reading 1,000s of words

Caravans, which have undoubtedly been the leading topic in this lengthy discussion, so I'll start with them first.

One aspect of caravans that seems clear is, that they are able to transport troops from one town to another, without being noticed by an enemy player.
Hmmm. I now think of the caravan process a different way. Maybe, if you have two caravan structures in the two towns, you will be able to purchase two caravans, which constantly change ends with creatures swapping towns. So know I see it as, if you do not have a caravan structure at both ends, the caravan will return to the town that does. Although, if one does have a structure at both ends, the caravan would stay on the same end, until it is needed again.
That is mere speculation, although, it could work well. Linkki's thought is also very likely.
About Hero Chains, it serves similarly to the way they did, except in reverse. Meaning you have the control of the creatures. I also don't think Heroes are able to travel in caravans.

Fog of War:
Well, it has now become apparent to the members, and guests reading this thread, that Mines, Castles, Towns, and other flagged objects will eliminate the periodic difficulties that are induced by the darkness of the Fog of War.
Also there are also certain bonuses, such as a Town on top of a hill will clear more of the Fog of War than a mine in a valley. On top of that, there may be other distinctions, too, such as a Castle removing more Fog of War than a Windmill, for instance. So owning more windmills, which can now be flagged, will provide two benefits, clearing Fog of War, and producing resources and/or gold on a weekly basis.
Yes, I think DonGio is correct in saying: "cause there are bound to be people there, with eyes, who can see what's going on." And I think that is the predominant reason why mines reveal a sector of the map, even if it is slight.

Undulations, Hills, Valleys:
Hmmm. I had never really thought the terrain inside of battle was elevated. Only on the Adventure Map did it happen. A nice perspective, though.
If undulations are actually included in battle,(Which I am not sure about) it would turn out quite interestingly.
On the Adventure Map, though, elevations add a new concept to gameplay, as they help and hinder you in more ways than one, and there is no way to control or stop them. I think the main reason elevations were brought into the game, was because of the Fog of War, and ways to make it a more worth while aspect of the game, instead of having a very similar effect to what the 'uncharted territory' did in Heroes 2, 3 and 1.

Elevations in Battle:
It seems simple enough. Although they were used in a slightly different manner in Heroes III, globally known as the arrow towers, although they didn't really act as creatures as such. Archers, if standing on an elevation would be able to get a clearer shot, and deal more damage. Yes, it does have the ability to work, but it doesn't have a HUGE impact on battles. But a small one.

Thankyou, all for responding to our thread, our discussion has been greatly rewarded. I hope there are more interesting discussions, similar to this one throughout the Altar of Wishes.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted January 31, 2002 05:32 AM
Edited By: Gerdash on 30 Jan 2002

well, didn't read most of it, but

what do you guys think, might it be possible to script such an unbuilt mine that turns into a subterrainian gate if you build it. and under the gate there is just one square with the corresponding resource. and on each square on the underground level there is a script that clears up one of it's neighbouring squares that are predefined diggable by the script each week.

or even better, the built mine could be scripted to act as an underground gate and could be flagged and garrisoned. and each flagged gate-mine would clear one diggable square in the cave under it every day. maybe it would even need some peasants in the garrison for that?

and maybe there would be a script on many clear map squares that would summon a town that corresponds to the race of the player, provided some resources and maybe also some reasonably easily accessible artifact is available?

sth like you dig a mine, then some freaking undead comes and conquers it. so it's his mine now, his hero goes underground and builds a town inside the mine.

========
you know, it's all scripts that i am talking about here. and if you would be able to do such things with scripts in large scale without getting errors (e.g. make it turn an obstacle into clear ground), the game could be distorted massively indeed.

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Tristan
Tristan


Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
posted January 31, 2002 08:08 AM

Chaining:  I am wondering and hoping that chaining will not be possible, because each stack would have its own movement points.  I guess we will have to wait a few months on this one.

Unka:  Glad to see you back and in good spirits, your presence has been missed.  Thanks too for reafirming that this type of discussion is what the Altar is for.  One nice thing is, even after the game is released we can keep the altar alive for expansions!

Scripting:  It seems like we will be able to do a LOT of interesting things with this, and I can't wait to see what comes of it.  (Though I doubt I will be able to do much with it myself)

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Djive
Djive


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
posted February 01, 2002 06:27 PM

Quote:
Caravans:
The subject of whether you need the caravan built at one or both ends, seems to be still open. I have always thought that the caravan building is like the shipyard, but with no cost in forming a caravan. I'm leaning toward the side that you need the caravan structure built only in the town from which you want to send units elsewhere, as the caravan  disforms after it has reached it's destination. Of course I can be wrong. There is no info about this anywhere.


You're suggesting making the caravan like the shipyard... I'm leaning towards the other way around.

Having the Shipyard working as Caravan seems to be an excellent idea (which probably isn't in the game). And it would add some added value to the shipyard.  (In heroes 3,  at least I avoided building shipyard in towns because if you flagged an external dwelling you wouldn't have to pay the cost for constructing... and once you had a boat and a shipyard flagged, summon boat pretty much ruined the purpose of building a shipyard to begin with. In other words in heroes 3 the structure was often underpowered and bordering to being useless, unless the mapmaker took care to make it otherwise.)

A basic restriction on caravans/sea caravans is that there should be an appropriate movement path between then. You can't have a caravan between two towns on islands.

So caravans should only be possible for transports between two towns with land connection (and there shouldn't be any inpassible terrain like mountains between them)

It could be the same way for shipyards. They allow transports between two towns with water connection

I'm a bit divided on whether caravans should be able to use Teleporters and Whirlpools to make the journey... Probably, they shouldn't, and if they did the time to make the journey would be at least somewhat random as the 'caravan' may have to enter the whirlpool/teleporter several times to reach the 'correct' teleporter exit.

And another question would be if  creature guards would be seen as passible objects. The land connection may still be guarded if you've reached the other town by sea and vice versa.

I'm leaning towards requiring caravans/harbours (or shipyards), both at the destination and the origin, at least for sea-based travel.

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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"

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Oldtimer
Oldtimer


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
posted February 02, 2002 12:34 AM

I think you guys are making caravans too complex.  It seems obvious that the caravans will act like a gate between too towns that have the caravan structure.  You probably click on the structute to tell it how many creatures you want to go to what town.  It then will probably tell you how many days it will take to get the creatures there.  Then you send them and you probably won't be able to interact with the caravan until it arrives at its destinantion.

One question could be what happens to creatures that are sent to a town and that town gets taken over before the caravan arrives?  Do those creatures go back into the original stable or are they now available for the enemy to purchase at the caravan structure?

Also there will be height elevations in combat because alot of the spells have line of sight restrictions which means that you can try to hide behind stuff like hills or other obsticles.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>

"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."

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Linkki
Linkki


Adventuring Hero
posted February 02, 2002 02:02 AM

If I recall correct, there will be no elevations in combat, the only line of sight affectors are the obstacles. Anyways, this if off-topic.

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Myste
Myste


Adventuring Hero
Reality Impaired
posted February 02, 2002 12:42 PM

Too much info...

<Myste>
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'The Eyes He Posses Can Watch The World'

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