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| Thread: The most important question-skill |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2002 10:18 AM |
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The most important question-skill
What is the most esteemed 'skill' which everyone has prestieged so MUCH?
If you read the whole archive of messages, you will find that all that players want is to test their 'skill', not luck; that is, every player prior to this thread it seems condemn luck and want to reduce it to the minimum/make it--make it 0
But how do you test it if it isnt even defined?
The definition of skill will give rise to a whole new perspective in which prior discussions were based.
Firstly, is 'skill' a test of knowledge, eg whether u know that the amount u can resurrect is 50 per sp? Then all players who have read the manual are equally skilled isnt it?
Skill a test of IQ? To think out that its good to place speed boots when your hero is beyond the reach of your enemy's hero, but change to saint sandles when hes near?
A test of map experience, about where your hero should first head in order to maximise movement(cut down on the redundancy)?
In my opinion, it is to take into account of all the above, including 'luck factor' to maximise your chances.
There was a thread which was followed up quite some time, about creating a map where ALL creature types,creature no. , spells etc. are equal.
What 'skill' is there to test then, if all luck is eleminated as such? What can a person know which the other doesnt?? To place a unit next to archers? When facing a choice of 10 titan n 100 gremlins, use 1 mighty gorgon to attack the titan? To know that slow is good?
The wide variation of winning/losing factors is that which will test the skill of a player, to see how players will reorientate themselves to suit the new n unique situation.
Luck should then be maximised right? If there is no luck(not the double damage luck hehee), eg give same arts n hero n 1 titan each n everything to each player, then its ..ermm.. testing to see whether player doesnt know that striking first is good isnt it?
Why have no one noticed that your opponent is a big luck factor too? He/she/her mood/sleepiness will decide the game a big deal too.
Can any others here give a better definition?
By the way, I still do not know AT how many hex a half arrow will have become a full arrow. Anyone?
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted January 25, 2002 10:55 AM |
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skill=......
skill is simply how well u play the game with all factors involved but if u want raw skill such as playing ability would be the 0,0,0,0 stats both heroes no monsters and same monsters same heroes bla bla bla to see who is the better strategist.
True skill comes from looking at all your advantages and disadvantages then figuring out a way to do the very best with said advantages and disadvantages 
btw.... 7lakes=raw skill map
randoms = true skill maps???(i hope not randoms suck)
true blind maps = true skill maps??(cus host can see the random  )
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted January 25, 2002 11:35 AM |
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you're right, skill has many sub-types of definitions ...
if I were to try to summarize skill into ONE definition, it would be:
skill is how well you apply your experience.
which is analogous to:
wisdom is how well you apply your knowledge.
blah, blah, blah ... who cares? the game's really meant for fun, isn't it?
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted January 25, 2002 11:35 AM |
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TheCastrated:
Ever been in a situation where you won or lost due to luck even though you outplayed your opponent?
And by outplayed I mean; clear your side of the map faster, build faster, and win all the skirmishes. So even though you are in great shape when you take your utopia a week before the other person, you get the sandals of the saint. So, you figure the only thing you can do is attack hoping to catch your opponent off guard. Of course that's when you find out they pulled 2 relics out of the water and got Alamar week 1. :-(
It's situations like this that motivates people to talk about 'skill.' Which basically means; "If everything was equal in this game I would have won."
jiels (my pathetic thoughts)
ps. really good point about the shape your opponent is in when playing them. I can relate to that. Reverend Morris1 mentioned that factor before too.
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Moon
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 25, 2002 12:25 PM |
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Quote:
skill is simply how well u play the game with all factors involved but if u want raw skill such as playing ability would be the 0,0,0,0 stats both heroes no monsters and same monsters same heroes bla bla bla to see who is the better strategist.
True skill comes from looking at all your advantages and disadvantages then figuring out a way to do the very best with said advantages and disadvantages
btw.... 7lakes=raw skill map
randoms = true skill maps???(i hope not randoms suck)
true blind maps = true skill maps??(cus host can see the random )
There is nothing like a True Skill map.
7 Lakes= Keep Oversight over 14 Towns, 7 Goldmines, Relicts and 2 Compenemies.
Randoms= Be able to recognize the pattern in a few days, change Strategy very fast.
True Blind= Different Skills depending on Map, maybe most Skills needed overall.
Single map with low Variables(mostly closed)= Knowledge of map, best Mainmoves, building Procedure, what needed to break threw, if needed at all...
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted January 25, 2002 06:55 PM |
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I do not see myself skilled enough to comment on what "skill" is in Heroes3, but I of course have an idea.
Imho skill depends on your battling tactics... That is, beating "lots of" lvl7s without losing any troops (lvl1 creatures excluded) early in the game may be considered as "skill".. Or succesfully chaining 8 heroes may be considered "skill"... Or, casting the right spell in the right place and time may be considered as "skill"... Or, defeating your opponent with captains hat and boots of lev. on a "relic race" map (he has the stat arties-but you do not give him enuf time to collect them) may be considered as skill...
However, me thinks that "skill" is ALWAYS secondary in Homm3 compared to "luck" 
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madmartigan
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
who will never walk alone
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posted January 25, 2002 06:58 PM |
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Quote:
TheCastrated:
Ever been in a situation where you won or lost due to luck even though you outplayed your opponent?
And by outplayed I mean; clear your side of the map faster, build faster, and win all the skirmishes. So even though you are in great shape when you take your utopia a week before the other person, you get the sandals of the saint. So, you figure the only thing you can do is attack hoping to catch your opponent off guard. Of course that's when you find out they pulled 2 relics out of the water and got Alamar week 1. :-(
It's situations like this that motivates people to talk about 'skill.' Which basically means; "If everything was equal in this game I would have won."
this summarizes all that is needed for this thread, I guess
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2002 07:07 PM |
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Creatures must be in 10-hex limit for shooters to be able to do full damage.
There are many luck factors. Opponent might get better artifacts than yourself while you get better spells and skills for your hero. And your Dread Knight might do Curse and Double damage combination all the time while your opponent troops are getting morale boost quite often.
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted January 25, 2002 08:24 PM |
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All good stuff here!
I would also like to mention another factor involved IMO.
The plan!
For example: Random/blind maps and random heroes for explanation purposes.
You should start planning as soon as you see what you have for a starting town, what Heroes you have to work with and what you can see the first day, is the map resource rich? What kind of Arties can you see. Where is the wood and ore? Do you know your opponent and his weaknesses? Based on what you have and what you see... is this a might or magic game for you? Did you get Hack or Deemer? The plan MUST be flexible! Start modifing the plan as you learn more about the map. People who play the same map/hero over and over are simply following a ready made plan that worked for them before and it gets easier every time they play it.
Skill, Wisdom, Tactics, Memory are important and greatly affect the plan of course but if I get tired or lazy and just play without a plan.... I will often get my butt kicked.
The robot within us can beat the AI easily while we watch tv or study for a test but an equal or better human requires all your resources and attention.
You MUST commit yourself to the method you are going to play THIS game within the first week or it all becomes luck.
Skill in this game may just be the integration of all your abilities and resources into a workable plan!
(IMO)
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted January 25, 2002 08:53 PM |
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Edited By: Ichon on 25 Jan 2002
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Preparation
What Craig said is very true, however- I think he left out preperation for the ruin of your plan. Going perfectly, your plan will work, and sometimes even less than perfectly it still works. The important thing though is to account of possabilities that don't fit within your plan and prepare a sequence of actions to deal with as many possabilities as you can. That is one reason why people who play the same map over and over are so difficult to beat, not only knowing the best starting moves, but also what moves to do in whatever situation they encounter.
Outside of playing the same map over and over, there is a larger sphere just within the game of H3 where after you play long enough, you'll be able to determine the best move for a situation quickly, because of prior experience. Perhaps not the exact same sitation, but a similiar one. This game has been out for several years now- there are so many good players... skill is only a relative term when there is a distinct differences in knowledge, ability, and intensity. The dif between a newbie and veteran is obvious, but what is the dif between all the veterans that make some win more often than others?
I'd guess intensity and tactical planning since most people know the best strategies now- the tactics are when to move where as in chess, and intensity is paying attention to all the details you need to keep track of.
Edited for Mad-
Experience= Tactical genius&Intensity.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted January 25, 2002 09:09 PM |
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so now ......
skill = experience?
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted January 26, 2002 08:32 AM |
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yeah, anticipation is another element in skill.
I've had a few wins solely because I could anticipate the moves of my opponent, and counteract against them.
Often like:
- creating a decoy
- setting a trap
- spotting a decoy or trap (important)
- hiding in an unexplored area, to surprise him later
- waiting before casting mass slow, incase opponent has mass haste
etc..
instead of outplaying opponent, you're out-thinking opponent.
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- wiggy ... who has a crush on Rob's models. Well ... the ones his age (18-26)
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted January 26, 2002 10:23 AM |
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In this game I think skill is the sum total of knowing a gazillion "tricks" and being able to put them all together in one package we call skill.
For example taking a utopia on Hourglass.
One guy may run in day 15 and take it and lose all his lev 6's.
Another guy may hire a hero day 1 that is likely to get diplomacy so on day 12 or whatever he can take it without losing any of the troops he plans to use in his final battle.
So by taking the utopia better he has shown skill.
Of course there are other and even better ways to do that but I'm just siting an example.
Having proper spacing on your heroes so you can swap your troops and take all the mines quicker and leave your main to fight the important battles and hold only fast units at days end is a skill. Albeit one easily mastered.
In fact most of the skills in heroes are so easy to master. That is why I call them "tricks" and not skills.
He who knows the most tricks and puts them together the best is said to be the most skillful.
But with the maps we play in toh the lil skills are not as important. After all we all know the same skills and play maps that have random relics so it seems the best skill is now just to be lucky.
-Mocara
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Black_Mage
Tavern Dweller
???
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posted January 26, 2002 07:36 PM |
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?????? WHAT!
Quote:
In this game I think skill is the sum total of knowing a gazillion "tricks" and being able to put them all together in one package we call skill.
For example taking a utopia on Hourglass.
One guy may run in day 15 and take it and lose all his lev 6's.
Another guy may hire a hero day 1 that is likely to get diplomacy so on day 12 or whatever he can take it without losing any of the troops he plans to use in his final battle.
So by taking the utopia better he has shown skill.
Of course there are other and even better ways to do that but I'm just siting an example.
Having proper spacing on your heroes so you can swap your troops and take all the mines quicker and leave your main to fight the important battles and hold only fast units at days end is a skill. Albeit one easily mastered.
In fact most of the skills in heroes are so easy to master. That is why I call them "tricks" and not skills.
He who knows the most tricks and puts them together the best is said to be the most skillful.
But with the maps we play in toh the lil skills are not as important. After all we all know the same skills and play maps that have random relics so it seems the best skill is now just to be lucky.
-Mocara
What ar you even talking about?! You shouldn't hurt your fingers typing this heap of crap! You need a timout!
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Michael Cappelluti
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andiangelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2002 11:14 PM |
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skill = make the best of what you get, win fair loose fair, dont drop or check anything
to all you out there, and i know its a lot these days, who drop during game to check the situation: you got nada skill
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted January 26, 2002 11:29 PM |
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skill
skill = judge a situation or outcome of fights
(damn i dont know how many times i asked Andi stupid questions like "Can 2 dread knights kill a pack of orcs?" , " Is one Hydra enuff for a big naga bank ?"....well and i still do )
losing = best way of learning
Cityhallweek1schaaf
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted January 27, 2002 12:21 AM |
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"What ar you even talking about?! You shouldn't hurt your fingers typing this heap of crap! You need a timout!"
First of all its TIMEOUT not TIMOUT...if you are going to slam on people's typing then nix the typos.
Second of all I know you are a newbie and cannot comprehend my post but if you disagree with it how about you come up with an intelligent counter argument?
Is that too hard for you, Michael?
Normally I don't respond to such a rediculous post unless it's by my flame buddies Mad, Jex, Jinxer, Andi or Moto but I am feeling generous today.
Welcome to the ToH message board. Get some ToH games under your belt before you start slamming people's post.
Ok dumdum? Ok, that's good...now back in your cage.
-Mocara
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted January 27, 2002 12:55 AM |
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Losing is the best way to gain skill.
-- couldn't agree more Motor (check my record )
Also one of the best ways to learn the little tricks.. Allying with those guys you can never beat .... making daily saves and checking them out : AFTER THE GAME.
In fact many games I had played in the past I had archived into a different directory the saves from those games. It is extremely interesting to see what a player has done and trying to figure out how he got there day by day. Taught me alot anyway.
but I think the true test of a players skill is in his battle tactics, vs the opponent in one of those monumental battles.
I have been killed many times by an "inferior" army/hero due to far superior battle tactics. And in each of these battles you take something away from it thinking about how you can utilize that.
Mocara for example is in my opinion is an amazing battle tactition (although some may not agree with his tactics) they work very well and are alot of fun to try to stop.
Midnight has done things to me in battle I never knew could be done. Standing watching my screen in awe as not one of my units may move after rd2 has ended.
lots of others too. I am sure I have forgotten about. But learning more and more "tricks" and learning how to "make yourself luckier" is always great fun and seemingly endless.
Books by Destro
------------------
The Dead Walk!!!
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Fantusta
Known Hero
who wishes he was high
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posted January 27, 2002 05:46 AM |
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losing = the best way to gain skill?
Then are my skillz still so lacking? Really, skill is being able to win with an outnumbered army with an outpowered hero, without being cheap. Just outmanuvering your opponent.
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You're unique, just like everyone else. I'm just better.
I'm challenging preconcieved notions you haven't even thought up yet!
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thecastrated
Famous Hero
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posted January 30, 2002 06:01 AM |
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Refination
I would like to refine; but its a bit abstract so some here may not b able to get what I m saying:
My test of skill level would be: the level you are at when faced with long term repeated testings in which none of the factors decides the outcome overwhelmingly more than others.
What it translates into is actually that the bigger the map, the more skill would be required/the more skill would be judged. This is because the numerous 'testings' (including planning,fighting etc.) will rub out any statistical quirks. Mathematics, anyone?
Eg. in a map. the different artifacts will put a player's skill to test. However, the relics may not do so since it decides the battle overwhelmingly. So etc. etc.
Actually skill isnt just knowledge. U know AI had the exact damage to be done by spell all calculated exactly before casting them in order to do the maximum damage? It has the most knowledge then, but IQ is needed to maneouvre a person out of the vastly intricate variations/possible moves that an opponent can put.
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