|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:01 AM |
|
|
6 possible balance changes post blizzcon.
Changes like the Oracle shows how lost they are.
Oh, and as much as I criticize the Widow Mine, nerfing SIXTY PERCENT their AoE is just making them useless. Good god, can't they make less radical changes?
____________
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 07:30 AM |
|
Edited by JoonasTo at 07:31, 24 Sep 2013.
|
That's not 60% nerf, that's 37,5% nerf, do your math.
Still, that's a LOT of AoE gone. I do think that it's the right call since one widow mine shot to the bulk of any army is still cost effective by far.
But 20% speed buff for DTs, wow, that's a risky call.
10% attack rate buff for siege tanks sounds really nice. As if they didn't do enough already. 
Loving the roach burrow speed upgrade and combined mech attack upgrade. Both have been long coming and long avaited.
What this does to vikings against colossi though...
And gas cheap oracles, wtf man. I'm just gonna spam oracles and rape zerg now. Or I would if their build time wasn't still the same. Regardless, an eyebrow raising move.
BTW. speaking of radical nerfs, did you ever play C&C 3? Those patches to the original game were hilarious. They buffed some units damage up by 200% while adding 150% health to some. They also completely changed the econ. TWICE.
And the original game was actually balanced to begin with but because noobs couldn't comprehend the idea of soft counters they complained them into changing some of the units to hard counters and oh boy did it start rolling from there. 
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:07 PM |
|
|
JoonasTo said:
That's not 60% nerf, that's 37,5% nerf, do your math.
Still, that's a LOT of AoE gone. I do think that it's the right call since one widow mine shot to the bulk of any army is still cost effective by far.
We are talking about the radius of a circle. That's not linear. Rememeber the area of a circle is radius^2 * pi
Old Area: 9.6
New area: 3.8
That's a ~60% nerf, not a 37.5%
Maybe you should go back to school and take some math lessons 
JoonasTo said:
But 20% speed buff for DTs, wow, that's a risky call.
I like the idea of making units like DTs less gimmicky, but I feel that's not the way to do it. Buffing DT speep will make them just easier to use and much harder to defend (marines can't chase them down now). I believe giving them some kind of ability that increase their movility some way would be better...
JoonasTo said:
10% attack rate buff for siege tanks sounds really nice. As if they didn't do enough already.
I fear it will make TvT even more tank dependant and won't solve the problem of mech against Z or P, but it's soon to call it.
JoonasTo said:
Loving the roach burrow speed upgrade and combined mech attack upgrade. Both have been long coming and long avaited.
What this does to vikings against colossi though...
With the combined upgrades and the tank buff, mech in TvT is going to rock so hard...
JoonasTo said:
And gas cheap oracles, wtf man. I'm just gonna spam oracles and rape zerg now. Or I would if their build time wasn't still the same. Regardless, an eyebrow raising move.
Making them cheaper only makes them more used on proxies and all-ins, it won't affect the mid-lategame situations becauses oracles SUCKS against any kind of static defense. What they need to do is make Oracle more micro-friendly and more usefulness when static defenses are deployed....more like banshees are, for example (they still can do some damage when there are Static defenses, but you have to micro them).
JoonasTo said:
BTW. speaking of radical nerfs, did you ever play C&C 3? Those patches to the original game were hilarious. They buffed some units damage up by 200% while adding 150% health to some. They also completely changed the econ. TWICE.
And the original game was actually balanced to begin with but because noobs couldn't comprehend the idea of soft counters they complained them into changing some of the units to hard counters and oh boy did it start rolling from there.
No, I never played a C&C game. But that sounds crazy
____________
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:13 PM |
|
Edited by Minion at 13:14, 24 Sep 2013.
|
The widow mine change is good, the unit only costs 75/25 - it should not be that devastating as it is now. In combination with the tank buff it works I hope, surely don't want another obsolete unit in the game. But Widow Mine is the most complained unit in the game, thankfully there will be a change of some sorts.
I don't understand the speed buff for Dark Templar, like where did that come from. And the Oracle.. weird.
Burrowed Roach movement buff - yesss. Seems very nice, Tunneling Claws is never researched.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:18 PM |
|
|
Minion said:
The widow mine change is good, the unit only costs 75/25 - it should not be that devastating as it is now. In combination with the tank buff it works I hope, surely don't want another obsolete unit in the game. But Widow Mine is the most complained unit in the game, thankfully there will be a change of some sorts.
You know I completly agree on touching WM. But the propposed change just make them useless, I think there are better ways to approach them.
And I liked some words from Liquid'Ret (a professional player)
Liquid`Ret said:
I feel like david kim is finally listening to the community's opinion that the game is simply boring, but I feel like these changes have absolutely nothing to do with actual current balance.
Liquid`Ret said:
How hard is it really, with 10+ years of experience in Korea in progaming, to get Proper, educated opinions from coaches/players/team representives/team houses and make some REAL changes?
Focus on Korea where the skill is higest and fix the game.. or at least try to communicate, try to make things better.
____________
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:46 PM |
|
|
Would you have rather nerfed the splash damage or what?
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 01:59 PM |
|
|
Well, all koreans are kind of self-obsessed snows so I can see why you would not want to listen to them. There is no common good in korean. They're all hilariously political backstabbers. Makes for great soap operas and is hilarious to watch as long you're not part of it yourself.
That said, what matters to a couple 400apm guys at the top probably doesn't matter that much for the rest of players. So if they just listened to them this game would end up with a completely different balance for us, the majority.
I would love if they lowered the need for micro on zerg though. My zerg game apm is always 30% higher than terran or protoss...
As to what comes to widow mines, they still do way more damage than a baneling, have range and don't self-destruct upon use. I wouldn't call that useless.
They also oneshot STALKERS. You also get two widow mines per stalker.
Currently widow mines are over-represented in the TvZ only due to their ridiculously high splash radius. This is the best way to correct those 30 zergling/20 baneling killshots.
What does concern me are widow mine drops. Is there any use to dropping widow mines anymore now that you can't get the splash shots to workers?
I feel that they should lower the time between shots to compensate. Afterall, it's not like their actual damage output over time was the issue, rather the game deciding random shots.
Quote:
Making them cheaper only makes them more used on proxies and all-ins, it won't affect the mid-lategame situations becauses oracles SUCKS against any kind of static defense. What they need to do is make Oracle more micro-friendly and more usefulness when static defenses are deployed....more like banshees are, for example (they still can do some damage when there are Static defenses, but you have to micro them).
Exactly, just rush to stargate and spam away. Imagine instead of those 5 phoenixes you have 5 oracles out. You can just fly in and kill all drones in 2-3 seconds, sure might lose and oracle to spore if he scouts it but who cares? You just got 20 drones and can do just fly to his second base to do it all over again!
Stupid change, they'll probably let it be since it doesn't really change the game that much.
Quote:
We are talking about the radius of a circle.
Correction, you are talking about it
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 02:02 PM |
|
|
Minion said:
Would you have rather nerfed the splash damage or what?
Personally I think a change to the splash damage would be a good option. But not just a damage reduction but something like:
40 of damage for units in 0-0.9 radius
30 of damage for units in 0.9-1.3 radius
20 of damage for units in 1.3-1.7 radius
I think it would be more balanced and a little less powerful...but dunno if enough to have more diversity.
(And maybe 29 of damage on the second radius so it doesn't kill a ton of banelings, but not 100% sure about that)
____________
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 02:12 PM |
|
|
Anything that prevents Widow Mines from making 1500 resource lost hits (20 banes) will be good. That is just the most frustrating thing about them, it feels such an undeserved win after that. No other unit can make such hits. But indeed, if this makes Mines worthless in TvZ that will be a travesty indeed. But I still think that when a mine hits and kills a mutalisk it has still been cost effective already, or paid for itself.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 24, 2013 02:25 PM |
|
|
JoonasTo said:
That said, what matters to a couple 400apm guys at the top probably doesn't matter that much for the rest of players. So if they just listened to them this game would end up with a completely different balance for us, the majority.
But it's not all about just "the top 200 players of the world". Have in mind thousand of people watch it as well, you have to keep them entertained as well.
JoonasTo said:
They also oneshot STALKERS. You also get two widow mines per stalker.
With the radius nerf I doubt we'll ever see WM vs Protoss, so it doesn't matter
JoonasTo said:
What does concern me are widow mine drops. Is there any use to dropping widow mines anymore now that you can't get the splash shots to workers?
Most of the time it won't be worthy, unless opponent (Protoss) has delayed detection for too long.
JoonasTo said:
I feel that they should lower the time between shots to compensate. Afterall, it's not like their actual damage output over time was the issue, rather the game deciding random shots.
I agree with you on this...
____________
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 25, 2013 08:21 PM |
|
|
I must have seeing more svc pulls on TvP on the last 2 months than in the previous 3 years.
It's so snowing boring and dull
____________
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 25, 2013 08:26 PM |
|
|
I'm getting quite bored of protoss games in general.
PvZ is the only one holding me with interest lately.
I found myself just leaving today's games on the background and playing tiberium alliance or reading on the side. Somehow there's not enough going on in the matches.
You watch the first nine minutes or so and if nothing happens you come back after half an hour to see the last fight. Just so boring.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 25, 2013 08:39 PM |
|
|
I agree with you.
TvP? usually some kind of cheese from the Protoss player (blink, dt drop, etc...) or standard macro game into svc pull. Soooooo boring and repetitive
PvP? dozens of BOs and strategies, but the way the battles develop is boring as hell
PvZ can be very interesting at times, but it can also be very boring, sometimes.
Add to the mix that TvZ is the same thing again and again....
The worst thing (that frightens me a lot) is 2014. LotV probably won't came out next year (unless on Nov/Dec), so we are going to live with what we have now....and the six propposed changes? Sounds to boring to me right now
____________
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 26, 2013 06:23 AM |
|
|
At least we know TvZ will change due to the widow mine nerf.
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 26, 2013 01:20 PM |
|
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted September 26, 2013 02:35 PM |
|
|
The nerf hammer is hitting the Widow Mine slighty less, but still alot. I hope to see other unit compositions in TvZ now (yeah, I know, not probably gonna happen). I agree so much that Dark Templars are not buffed, because they already end games by themselves. If they don't work they always have a "fail safe" and can turn into Archons, that are just perfect in every match up. And oracle luckily won't get cheaper, hopefully.
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 26, 2013 03:17 PM |
|
|
So they can listen to us afterall.
I wonder, does that fire rate mean only unsieged tanks or both...
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 26, 2013 03:20 PM |
|
|
JoonasTo said:
I wonder, does that fire rate mean only unsieged tanks or both...
Only for siege mode:
Quote:
Cooldown:
1.04 (Mobile)
3.00 (Siege)
____________
|
|
JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
|
|
posted September 27, 2013 12:51 PM |
|
|
Oh wow, that Soo vs Jjaki series. Epicness.
And the widow mines, wow, I can just try to imagine what that would have looked like without them...
____________
DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted September 27, 2013 12:57 PM |
|
|
Both of them made mistakes, but the way soO came back from a 50 supply deficit with just Muta Ultra Ling was impressive. Too bad he decided to suicide his army into a fortified Terran area. If he just keep defending and get close to max out he would be in better position (since he was defending damn well)
let's hope Bogus take Jjakji down!
____________
|
|
|
|
This Popular Thread is pages long: 
