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| Thread: Rules vs. Skill |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted February 02, 2002 06:06 PM |
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Maps are definately to blame for rules!
I think the maps themsleves play a big part in the choice to use rules. Not really there design, but there size!
90% of maps played in TOH are Medium maps. So game play is alot faster and youa re alot closer to your opponent. This is what brings about the No hit and run rule , the no day 1 rush rule. The no level 4 heroes rule, since they can attack you week 2 with Soly and you are still trying to build guild to get 4th spells.
If more people played XL maps or made more XL maps, then there would be alot less need for rules. If ya think about it, on an XL map, if someone hits and runs ya once, it gonna be a while before they can get back to you, so you got some options to rebuild or come up with some other options instead of being 3 days from another hit and run attack. And ofcourse the 1st day rush is NOT and option so no need for that rule. And no need for the No 4th heroes since you will have time to build your 4th guild and have a chance at an equal spell.
The main problem with XL maps is NOONE wants to take the time to really enjoy a good long XL game. They all want to rush attack late week 2 or early week 3 and be done in 3-4 hours.
Well anyways, this is my take on how where and when rules originated from truely =)
Play MORE Bigger maps!!!!!!!!
Jinxer
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melissa_x
Adventuring Hero
Tiffany Taylor
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posted February 02, 2002 06:55 PM |
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1st blub
jinxer i like playing medium maps because it fits my time schedule u know? Robs into the longer maps. i think its very difficult except for the really dedicated toh players to have the time to play long games.
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted February 02, 2002 07:38 PM |
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Long maps are of course my favorite...
However on those nights I arrive to the zone at 2am it seems that a more HG paced game is best suited for me.
although some of my many saves with certain people may say different.. I'm a sucker for the XL 
But making an XL map in the editor is massively time consuming.. I used to make them before I played online.. big 8 player XL maps but those were always geared at the color I wanted to use 
by the way if anyone can find it theres an XL 4 player ffa there somewhere called DOW (Dogs of War) it is extremely well balanced and a great map to play. However towns are set and areas based off the town type. Totally open and a hero can become very powerful on it. I can't find it again 
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted February 02, 2002 07:44 PM |
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LOL Melissa!! i like mediums also. Not saying that noone should play Mediums, was just merely offering a possible reason as to why all the rules came about.
I have the worst availability than anyone. I rarely have time to play even a Medium map all in one sitting anymore. So I mainly play the usual gang of players that know me and dont mind saves. Still havent got to play you yet Mel. Would love the priveledge. Even though you prolly trounce me bad. =)
Jinxer
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destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted February 02, 2002 07:46 PM |
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hmmm lol I guess I should have read the whole post before I replied to jinxers maps posting
Anyway my take on rules is simple ...
I play any, all, or none....
And if I lose to a tactic thats just fine by me
In my opinion I find it makes the game much more interesting ...
Only thing that frustrates me is the unbeleivable "Misunderstandings" that sometimes become evident in a game.
anyway
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted February 02, 2002 07:57 PM |
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Fog of War great Idea!!
In H4 one of the new features is the Fog of war! No even though you have scouted the area you wont beable to see any enemy movement in that area unless you are within immediate site! So I would Love to see someone try to do repeated Hit and Runs on you. Now where did that little ****** go to???? hehe
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted February 02, 2002 10:05 PM |
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low offensive spell power
Fog of war won't halt H&r as much as the low offensive damage possible in H4. Also the hero can't be bought except at the town he was first purchased at, could be a long way away from the H&R site.
As for that topic in this thread- rules remove many of the options possible in the game so of course there is less skill since there are less things which can occur to have skill in. It doesn't mean no skill though- there isn't a heck of alot of dif in ability used by both rules and no rules people, the rules people just use less of a set of skills they could be using.
Also- the no rules people are forced to play in rules games quite often compared to rules people being able to refuse no rules games which often seems the case.
I think alot of people get a weird idea that having a no rules games there will be H&R every other day, and all the heroes will be 4ths and logs etc... It rarely works out that way. The reason o rules games are fun is you never know what exactly will happen, sometimes it is almost like a rules game since neither player can get a good H&R spell or there isn't time to setup the H&R to be profitable. Other games the outcome is really strange... 4th week and neither side has more than 1 or 2 7th levels and not much other armeis from fighting so many battles. Or yet more strange things... a rules game is generally more predictable, of course saying rules game doesn't mean every single stupid rule, but the usual set of no 4th, no log, no H&R, no diplo. Those games usually go so everyone gets their big arties and full army, then one big battle winner take all. You have to use some skill to do all those thigns in the best way possible, but only vertain skills used in that framework compared to what skills could possibly be used with any option available.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted February 02, 2002 10:13 PM |
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Another 'haha...there wont be any hit and run in h4 post by Jinxer'.
We need more of these.
-Mocara
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dstg
Hired Hero
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posted February 03, 2002 12:04 AM |
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Maybe some people should find another game
Lets face it. If u ever want to find a game in a resinable amount of time u have to agree on playing with a multitudeness list of rules. Any time a player has ever asked me what rules i want i say none. Then they make rules and i agree to play with them. All this rule making does is limit the complexities of the game.
Besides playing heroes i am also a recent master at chess. I love both games but for different reasons. Chess is a game of percise evaluation and calculations of the positions. At a the highest level there is the most minute digree of luck that it can not even be messured. However heroes is not like that. It was never ment to be a recreation of chess. There are supposed to be inumbeable variables that no person unless they devote there entire life to it will ever compensate for all of them. The best players are the ones that can react to different situations.
So for those of you that think by simplifing the game it will make it more fun i think maybe u should find a new game. Take up chess and leave heroes the way it was designed
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted February 03, 2002 01:21 AM |
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Amen brothuh!!!
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted February 03, 2002 08:54 AM |
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Oh, please, please tell me how I can and can't play the game! I'm an idiot who has to do everything Mocara and his friends say because they are always right. Tell me again how I should play this game and while your at it, how to live and what to wear and eat and ......
lol@the thought nazis. Go back to the bridges you crawled out from under. Last I knew people where allowed to play the way they wanted. After all, I don't see you guys playing the game the way it was designed. (you created homm3 right? Because I wasn't sure )
Ohhh, tell me, is it ok to try to have fun the way I want to? Must I do everything you tell me to? Or am I allowed to actually make up my own mind?
jiels (<--- wonders who died and made them god?)
ps: Mo, DSTG, Grow up. Your acting like kids.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted February 03, 2002 09:14 AM |
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just gotta say
LMFAO
btw the person who died and made them god was me :/ i was god but somehow moc and his followers ursurped the throne 
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted February 03, 2002 09:39 AM |
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Edited By: jiels on 3 Feb 2002
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Ok, I was a little upset when I posted early (who would have guessed?) but I'm here to refute DSTG's point about the game desgin of heroes.
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Dstg said: So for those of you that think by simplifing the game it will make it more fun i think maybe u should find a new game. Take up chess and leave heroes the way it was designed
1. How was it designed? What was it designed for? Your making an assumption here. There are people that have said that they(NWC) didn't want Hit and Run to in h3 but that it would have been too much work to remove it. Now, I'm not saying this is true but it's as much of a fact as your assumption is.
2.Heroes has and is designed for single player mode. As Ves and ohers keep pointing out, 3do cares less about the multiplayer market. The majority of heroes players are single players only, and since that's the market; that's what heroes is designed for.
If the game was designed for multi play there would be more and better options, an online site (like Battle.net), an official tournament (what better way to promote your multi game), and let's be honest, they wouldn't have to make patches to fix multiplayer problems.
3. The fact that the campaigns make up 80% of the boxed game shows that single player against the AI with a complex story is what the game is designed for. After all, online tournaments proved how poorly the cd maps where for multiplayer.
4. How do rules simplify the game? I would like some proof here. By eliminating some variables you also create new ones that would not be there if not otherwise. Chaos theory, have you heard of it? I believe that it (C.T) would apply in this situation.
A good example of what I mean is: the No artifacts rules for randoms that Phantom1500 enjoys. It changes the game to something different, true, but it does not "simplify the game." It merely changes it.
(After a little thought, I'm positive this argument will/would get argued down to semantics and what maps are played, but feel free to correct me if I am wrong)
jiels (is going to think of more arguments for later, but this is enough for now)
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted February 03, 2002 10:49 AM |
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I do not think once ever have we ever told others how to play the game.
I believe the stance from our camp always has been;
"Play as you like but if you want to post here about how rules rule then we will post back about how they suck as a point counterpoint."
After all why would we ever bother posting anything about rules sucking if it weren't for the everpresent ranting of "We need these rules.".
Can you find one thread where out of nowhere we say "Rules suck."?
No of course not. We are merely the reaction. To keep balance.
Viva le Resistance =P
-Mocara
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted February 03, 2002 11:15 AM |
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Quote:
I do not think once ever have we ever told others how to play the game.
Hmm, see Prometheus's satire thread? What else is that? It flat out says that only idiots play with rules. That's not telling us how to play the game? What land are you from? I know your not that naive!
Quote:
I believe the stance from our camp always has been;
"Play as you like but if you want to post here about how rules rule then we will post back about how they suck as a point counterpoint."
Where has anyone posted that rules rule? Go back and read the rules threads!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I see lots and lots of people saying "I prefer to play with these rules, I have more fun in doing so." Page 16(H/R thread) by Rychenroller sums up the rule camp.
Quote:
After all why would we ever bother posting anything about rules sucking if it weren't for the everpresent ranting of "We need these rules.".
Hmmm, based on what I have read lately, it's because you have a personal agenda you are pushing on everyone else! Don't even try the BS that 1 or 2 people make up the whole of rule players. And there is a big difference between "need" and prefer. I have yet to read someone say we "need" rules. Your twisting words here, either supply proof or shut up, imo.
Quote:
Can you find one thread where out of nowhere we say "Rules suck."?
Satire on Rules(Humor) Keeps coming to mind!! If that's not a personal attack on all who decide to play the game differently then I am a huge idiot.
Quote:
To keep balance.
Wow, what a cool job. Who appointed you with it? And here I thought we needed respect and tolerance. Shows what I know, eh?
Quote:
Viva le Resistance
Who are you resisting? In the recent rules thread, more people agree with your camp.
Last thing I knew, toh was about playing heroes however you wanted to. When did sides come into it?
jiels (nice, empty rhetoric again)
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted February 03, 2002 11:46 AM |
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*sigh* If I post when I'm too tired I make stupid mistakes.
If anyone cares about the stupid rule/no rule argument please go read page 13 of the Hit and Run thread. The first 2 posts by Defreni and LichKing and then the last one by Rychenroller capture the essence of the rules side of the argument.
That being, we enjoy the game more like this. Wow, that's so horrible and evil isn't it. And it gets pushed down everyone's throat ever so much doesn't it.
jiels (took the bait but still scored the point, I think)
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted February 03, 2002 11:48 AM |
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Wow Jiels,
You of all people to write things like that.
I know you a lil bit and when you have an attack of concience later just don't bother to talk to me in private about how you were just mad.
At least Moto, Jinxer, Andi and the others are consistent.
I expected a lil bit more from you.
-Mocara
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jiels
Adventuring Hero
LFM C'thun, pst.
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posted February 03, 2002 12:07 PM |
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*sigh* Now you know how I feel.
Mocara after I saw the way you blatantly provoked Motor, Andi, and Mad in the zone and ranted at Kitten Angel for a post a month old you went off my list. You and your friends are trying to provoke those you don't like. Deny it, but your behaviour here and in the zone proves it. (Example: You and Frank making claims about Motor and Andi's vamp lords, when they asked you nicely you left and Frank shut up until they left the zone, if that's not trying to aggravate someone, what is it?)
I enjoyed the game I played with you but when you turned around and did to Motor and Andi what you said you hated about them....you lost respect in my eyes.
And your constant posting about the horrors of rules is as much whining as the people who complain about their loses.
I honestly thought you were better then the two faced person I saw in here and in the zone. And I'm sure you feel the same way about me. That's life. :-(
But when you provoke my friends because you find it fun and promote disrespect against them, how do you want me to respond? I should ignore your attacks on them?
You tell me in a game that you are going to get Andi kicked out of the HC because of his zone behaviour and a month later it happens. I agree his zone behviour was bad, but he also did a good job. I can't sit on the fence for that, I'm sorry. Other options should have been tried before he gets booted in my opinion. I didn't see that, I saw one man make a character assasination becaue he disagreed with the other's opinions.
I defend my friends when I think they need help. *shrug*
What would you do?
jiels (there's my reasoning, it's not an apology)
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Aculias
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
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posted February 03, 2002 12:13 PM |
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Sure the drama is great but come on Moc & Jiels, your both cool is there no way to resolve such argument
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Dreaming of a Better World
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted February 03, 2002 12:35 PM |
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Wow, u go girls...
Hey league mate, I dont consider myself in the rules "club", even though I prefer to play with certain limitations (my personal enjoyment) I can play a no rule game also, and do regularly. Recently Midnight, Destro and myself have been playing some random 200% with no rules, and its fun.
Generalization can be dangerous, and while I play a select group, I dont feel I belong to any "clique" except the bastards one maybe lol. I must be a glutton for punishment, losing to wacko every game.
Anyway, maybe I can kick u around on a random sometime soon mate As long as there is no Xarfax, or no Septienna, they are too strong
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Myctteakyshd
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