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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Are there imbalances in HOMM 3 ?
Thread: Are there imbalances in HOMM 3 ? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
Alistair
Alistair

Tavern Dweller
posted September 18, 2010 10:42 AM
Edited by Alistair at 11:12, 18 Sep 2010.

Are there imbalances in HOMM 3 ?

I started playing HOMM 3 with my brother again and we banned a few things that we feel are overpowered :

1 Berserk - to strong of a  spell especially at expert level, you can cast it on a powerful unit stack and not only does the victim not act on it's own on that turn but deals massive damage to the next nearby unit which in the beginning of a combat always is a friendly creature and it also takes damage from the retaliation. Not to mention when it's at expert level and you can massacre several units at the same time with it. In my opinion it should be an expensive 5 level spell which can only affect one unit at a time and last 1 turn.

2 Dimension door - we agree on only using 1 per day. Because if you have high knowledge you can hop the whole map and steal town after town. Although this might be ok since it's pretty mana costly and magic heroes are a lot weaker in combat then might heroes.

3 Armagedon + Black dragons - the strategy to attack with only black dragons, cast Armageddon and retreat is also banned cause you can destroy a lot of units and get away with only having to buy the hero at the tavern again, including the cost of retreating (I think it's called retreating) to not lose your units. I'm not sure if this actually might be balanced since your wasting hero movements that could be used for other things, but let's say your opponent tries to attack your town and you just attack him with black dragons cast Armageddon and before he get's to your town he has lost a good portion of his army. Do heroes get their full movement when purchased again ? Cause if yes you could do this multiple times before he reaches your town, especially later in the game when money isn't a issue.

4 Logistic heroes - we also don't allow for starting heroes with logistic as starting skill (not just specialty but generally) because other heroes wouldn't be chosen at all, since logistic seems to be the best skill by far. Even if there is a hero in the first week in the tavern who has logistics we forbid to make him the main hero to keep things fair for both. However choosing logistic during the game is alright and we both do it as soon as possible.


A few more general question : are all towns balanced ? It seems like castle is the strongest town and fortress the weakest. Also inferno seems weak. Tower is a strong race with creatures and spells but very slow hero mobility I think that is reasonable cause of the strong magic and creatures.  

I never played online but generally which towns are the most used and is fortress a rare choice ? I had one more question but forgot it, well I'll ask next time.

As you see I'm new to this forum but have been lurking every now and then a few years already. I'm impressed by the effort people put in posts and not just say anything to get their post count up. Also there seems to be little flaming and people seem friendly and polite.

I'm a big fantasy fan but not really a geek or nerd even tough I'm on the computer quiet a lot.

Ok, so I hope I'll get some interesting opinions, all responses are welcome




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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted September 18, 2010 12:10 PM
Edited by Warmonger at 12:13, 18 Sep 2010.

Well, the game is imbalanced in terms of multiplayer euqality for sure. But at the same time, it gives a variety of options for singleplayer maps which can become much more interesting and take advantage of every overpowered tactic there is. I mean, there are SO MANY imbalanced features that in the end every player develops his own strategy and tries to beat enemy who uses totally different exploit. It makes the game challenging and everlasting.

There are some modifications /rulesets to balance factions, such as TE or one wogification script. On the other hand, there are tons of singleplayer maps which just make good use use of overpowered features and tactical exploits. Things like Dimension Doors, Town Portal or Angel Wings give many possibilities to control the flow of singleplayer game.
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Protos
Protos


Known Hero
posted September 18, 2010 08:38 PM

You banned some wrong things.

- berseker: get the artifact againts it (pedant, recanter, red orb) or use exp cure

- armageddon plus blackies: get recanter or red orb, fast creature and mass haste, or fast creature, blind and black orb, etc.... there are many ways how to deal with it.

DD and log heroes are usually banned, but they are not so big imbalance imo. The worst imbalances banned in online games are:

- diplomacy, hillfort, cartographer (always banned )
- necromancy, Necropolis and Conflux(almost always banned)
- hit and run, red rush and some more, depends on player type

Now you can see what are the strongest towns. Necro and Flux. If we dont count them, all other towns are pretty balanced and which one is the best/worst, depends on map/template. For your information, fortress is very strong town on most of the maps.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 18, 2010 08:44 PM
Edited by Salamandre at 20:47, 18 Sep 2010.

Quote:
Well, the game is imbalanced in terms of multiplayer equality for sure.


For sure, I am not so sure. We played "not modified" Heroes during 5-6 years and nobody complained before the sissies came and lost to. (sissies from TOH I mean).

Red rush, hit and run, DD, necro and conflux, grails, all were allowed and did not create any noticeable problem. Rankings stayed same after the "let's play with sissies rules" as before.
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Alistair
Alistair

Tavern Dweller
posted September 18, 2010 10:38 PM
Edited by Alistair at 22:39, 18 Sep 2010.

Thanks for the insightful reply's. I probably have to understand certain town specific strategies better to realize the strength of all towns. Castle after all is also a very expansive town. I currently only play the original homm 3 but I remember that conflux seemed extremely strong. Also necro is considered one of the weaker towns by us but on big maps and with skeleton transformers you probably can horde a ton of skeletons basically for free. However their 2, 3 and 7 level creatures are very weak but bone dragons are cheap both the dwelling and unit cost.

I'm going to try installing the "scripts" for more balanced gameplay if I and my computer knowledgeable friend don't succeed installing it I'll come back here for help.


Also how long does a game over the internet last and are large maps played ? Is there a time limit on turns ?

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uruk-hai
uruk-hai


Adventuring Hero
posted September 19, 2010 12:18 AM

Just a note: Necropolis suck, death knights rule. Thats something that all people should be aware of. Its the heroes, not the town! But yet again, the town will be useless if u play no necro heroes but allow the town cause it sucks. So better ban it aswell, but my point is, the necromancy is the only reason that crappy necropolis is banned.

About flux, I would never say its the best town. Sure it has nice bird growth and all but its very expensive town with very expensive creatures. It requires great skill to play it in order to win vs best players. Its never an easy town to play. I dont get why its banned.
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Salamandre
Salamandre


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
posted September 19, 2010 12:55 AM

Because level 1 upgrade I think. You can basically win against 1 million golems/zombies with only 1 of them.
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MalekithPL
MalekithPL


Hired Hero
posted September 19, 2010 01:14 AM

I don't think that necro sucks so much without necromancy. Well, maybe it's not best town, but it isn't weak too. I played a lot of necro games without skell hoarding and skell tranformer. Galthran is nice hero, he can kill max crypts in week 1, since day 4 or 5, 2 BKs allow to defeat hordes of lvl 2 shooters/orks without losses. Then, 1-2-2 upg vamps can kill all banks except full nagas and topes and most of them are doable with lvl 1 hero. Max cons in 1-2-2 is quite good thing I guess... Ofc, pure army is usually weaker than other towns' ones, but necro power lies in vamps, easy and cheap animate dead, and wrights destroying whole mana of your almighty Crag Hack before main battle Necro starts to be imba, when it gets vamp dwell in week 1. 21 vamps eat for breakfast non-shooting guards of relic arties or big boxes. BK dwells are also a bit imba, but they are well-defended (high rmg value). Wrights+death ripple ensure win in any engagements of standard scout heroes (7x1 unit or something similar). Zombies and dragons sucks, but you don't really need them. On long or rich maps necro isn't so good, because it's greatest advantages are negated by upg lvl 7 units. Necro really shines in 2-3 week games, on not too rich maps (unless you are in the underground - then early game becomes quite difficult, what kills you later).

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liophy
liophy


Famous Hero
Bulgarian
posted September 19, 2010 01:24 AM

People seems to not realise how strong Necro is. Even without necromancy.

The key is the vamp lords. With pack vamp lords on week 2 you can do wonders!!! You can do things other towns cant even imagine!

In addition to that you have skelleton transformer, wich can do some very powerfull skeleton stack (espetially on long games).


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looom
looom


Adventuring Hero
Flying High
posted September 19, 2010 01:32 PM
Edited by looom at 13:43, 19 Sep 2010.

I'm not too worried about Necro's skelly farm, but exactly - the vampire lords. They are ,gently speaking, - IMBA.



Berserk is easy to counter, anti-mind spell arties do the trick. Other ways also, but I think they're pretty obvious.



Fire immunity or spell immunity+ armageddon - well I think it's a great strategy - the thing is might heros are considered to be way more powerful than magic heros. Why? Magic heros do have their own tricks to compensate for it, and an armageddon+efreets or BDs is gonna compensate for that flaw a lot.
But if you're lucky and have shackles of war and your opponent doesn't double check before he atks you with the armageddon spell hero, it's the last armageddon combo he will do on you for a while - and who knows, next month you get that hero in your tavern and revenge is imminent ^^.


Logistics - I agree that on a logistic specialiser hero it's OP, but not as a first pick skill.




About the balances of towns.

Well - to put it this way, I am gonna  find you and murder you if you say that Fortress is a weak faction - it's not. (j/k on the murder part )

I think it's safe to say that each town has its own pros and cons - well the most powerful town i dare say is conflux.

But fortress for example - Take tazar as your hero - he has armorer speciality and when u reach like a lvl 20ish , you ll have massive defense skill and you have alot of arrrrrrrmor on your creatures - I wanna see Mr Crag Hack deal with that.  Also Fortress has probably the best creature (lvl 5) in the game - if you utilize the Mighty Gorgons correctly, you can do wonders with them.


There is so much to say about each town - I don't think that any town is too powerful or too weak (save for flux)

It all comes down to the person's skill playing each faction -  A sick pro will annihilate flux player with Your weakest town - Fortress.

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MalekithPL
MalekithPL


Hired Hero
posted September 19, 2010 01:34 PM

Necro without necromancy is strong, but beatable... On rich maps, castle, stronghold and fortress should win easily. On poorer ones, rampart has good chance aswell. On fast ones dungeon can win with Shakti and lightning in early week 2, when necro is quite voulnerable.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted September 19, 2010 02:05 PM

looom : wanna see how the best creature in the game deal with legions of skeletons
moreover they aren't very fast, maybe ghost dragons beat them

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Alistair
Alistair

Tavern Dweller
posted September 19, 2010 02:13 PM

How can you see if someone has shackles of war ? Because that is also forbidden by us ; if your main hero happens to be caught by the other players main hero and a stronger army you lose your hero and that game is pretty much over, cause the main hero is most important. Even if you could come back somehow it kills your spirit and will to play to lose a + 10 level hero. But yes magic heroes are weaker then might, cause might heroes just get expert some magic and use 1st level spells like haste or slow and have much superior attack defense.

I still am not sure if bersek is balanced :

- what if you don't get one of the 3 artifacts that defends against bersek, chances are you won't


- cure or dispell do not work if berserk is cast on the creature that has the next turn. Also against berserk on multiple creatures you have to have expert disspel or cure but how often will one get water magic expert, it's not like you know that the other player is going to get berserk.

Maybe if you face a inferno magic hero then you could try to get expert water magic cause I think inferno has highest chances to get berserk

At least in mid battle berserk is less effective since creatures also can hit enemy units

Maybe the game is designed so that if a player gets berserk that the other player will get cure or there are anti berserk artifacts on the map

Cause getting expert berserk = casting it on 3 powerful enemy units at the beginning of battle = massive damage + those creatures losing their turn = victim saying IMBALANCE , BAN BERSERK ECT..



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looom
looom


Adventuring Hero
Flying High
posted September 19, 2010 07:38 PM

Well then my friend, it turns out that magic  extinguishes might - like I said, magic heros do have their tricks up their sleeves, now think again why people think might is stronger, CUZ ppl are too spoilt with the no-berserk rules etc etc.

Why should magic heroes be deprived of their  own strengths while might heroes get to keep theirs - dont make no sense does it?

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Alistair
Alistair

Tavern Dweller
posted September 19, 2010 07:50 PM
Edited by Alistair at 19:52, 19 Sep 2010.

Quote:
Well then my friend, it turns out that magic  extinguishes might - like I said, magic heros do have their tricks up their sleeves, now think again why people think might is stronger, CUZ ppl are too spoilt with the no-berserk rules etc etc.

Why should magic heroes be deprived of their  own strengths while might heroes get to keep theirs - dont make no sense does it?



It seems fair that an magic hero berserks three of a might heroes units because that might hero will have MUCH higher attack and deffense. However if both are might heroes, have expert wisdom and one gets berserk while the other frenzy and prayer that seems brutal. Altough prayer at expert level is very strong too.

Hmm maybe berserk's main purpose is to balance the too weak Inferno town. But probably not, also sacrifice seems like a crappy 5 level spell.

But this is not a game like starcraft where people play it as a sport and all races have to be perfectly balanced. HOMM is more played cause of the awesome fantasy setting and relaxed leveling up and choosing strategies. Still it would benefit from some simple value balancing. If I remember correctly HOMM5 was way more balanced although I don't like that depressive music and graphics are a little warcraft toy like which I don't like too.  

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MalekithPL
MalekithPL


Hired Hero
posted September 19, 2010 10:24 PM

Inferno isn't weak, coz it can get 80-90 demons in week 3 (not counting boxes with creatures, dwellings and more than 2 towns) and they can obliterate most units in one hit. It needs some skill to use this town properly, but demon farming is very powerful tactic.

@berserk
There isn't any rule banning berserk.

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted September 20, 2010 08:03 AM

Unbalance in H3?

Yes...in front of the monitor
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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted September 20, 2010 08:20 AM

Is that the problem? Then I must need a new monitor because I always lose.

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Alistair
Alistair

Tavern Dweller
posted September 20, 2010 01:55 PM
Edited by Alistair at 13:55, 20 Sep 2010.

I see, I will have to read the strategy guides to realize the potential of all races. Also I'll download some new maps cause the original ones got old. After all it's imba for everyone so it's balanced again. Luck is a factor but well, if you play 30 games you ain't gonna have bad luck each and everytime. Luck also adds a good portion of fun, who doesn't like getting 1500 exp in a chest, a strong artifact or the right spells in your magic guild.

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SAG
SAG


Promising
Supreme Hero
WCL owner
posted September 20, 2010 03:10 PM

good saves for Inferno
good saves for Castle and Fortress
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