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| Thread: Would the European countries be better or worse if there was no EU? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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VokialBG
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posted October 18, 2010 04:48 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 16:52, 18 Oct 2010.
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Would the European countries be better or worse if there was no EU?
To not mess in Blizzardboi's topic.
You can read some of posts of mine there (page 2).
SO the rich countries pay to the poor, people there pay taxes. Poor countries pay taxes and the oligarchy get the money from the rich countries. The EU parliament waste time in discussing the right shape of the banana and the cucumber. Do we need this, what are the benefits? And what we lose?
1. No, we don't need the EU.
2. The poor must leave.
3. The rich must govern the poor countries fully for some time.
4. Rich must leave.
Comment and vote if you want.
How it need to change in your opinion? Does it need to?
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Darkshadow
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posted October 18, 2010 04:51 PM |
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Economic benefits is to lose.
If we wanted the actual union part to work it would require an actual leadership (not just bureaucrats) and most countries don't want that.
If I had to chose an opinion to vote on it would be for a single and massive European country.
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del_diablo
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posted October 18, 2010 05:35 PM |
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Of those options, I would pick number 1.
What I believe is that the EU in its current form is more or less useless. There is too much unchecked power, there exists problems, the lobby has too much power in a some cases, and there is another bunch of heaps more problems.
A redesigned EU, with a reasonable power checking on itself and a robust system could be interesting. It would be better.
Of course, I am sitting on the sideline in a EØS country. They currently got us more or less on some form of trade embargo if you view it that way xD
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 18, 2010 06:18 PM |
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About the corruption in eastern Europe.
You know it's because of your culture, right?
Because it's kind of pointless just to blame your politicians for doing what everyone else is doing. 
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VokialBG
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posted October 18, 2010 06:23 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 18:25, 18 Oct 2010.
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Post's from this thread:
Kip:
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The people of Iraq is expiriencing the same thing that the people of the Baltic states expirienced in WWII. The USSR also promised us freedom from the Nazi Germany, but in reality it was one occupation after another(first the Soviets, then the nazis, then the soviets again, and now the EU). What's worse though, that we who were(are) occupated are helping with the occupation that some happy imbeciles are calling librerating. I agree with Baklava had said here.
JJ:
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I don't think anyone forced you to join the EU. Your countries wanted to join.
Kip:
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The way that I see it, the membership in EU has brought Lithuania nothing but trouble. Sure all that money to support agriculture and other funding is a good thing indeed, but they aren't used to their full extent. Also our goverment does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to make our lives better, they only care about looking good in front the EU. Our quality of life is reduced greatly during the recent years of this so called "economical crisis". Heck in one city the people pleaded to delay the heating season, because they didn't had the money to pay for the heating. And that's the least of our problems. It could be a lot better though, if our goverment wouldn't waste so much money on stupid project ideas and could do a better job managing the damned country. No wonder people emigrate.
JJ:
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Membership in the EU, though, is different than in the Warsaw Pact or the COMECON: you were not forced in any way to join.
Blizz:
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I don't understand why W. Europeans tend to like the EU and E. Europeans tend to hate it. It should be the opposite, but maybe this is for another thread.
DarkShadow:
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Didn't the Brits have the biggest whiners?
Kip:
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@Bboy: Because we who were in the Soviet bloc have a problem with the liberalistic politics of EU. Just look what happened in Belgrad during the gay parade, you'll see what I mean. The majority is still living in the past.
Vokial:
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@JollyJoker and Blizz: You don't know it, but noone wanted it here. In Bulgaria for excample most of the people were against it. We pay to the EU but we get nothing. The true is that the government and the political people that were ruling us were for the EU. Why? EU give money, true, and the guys in the government want them. The ordinary bulgarian doesn't get anything good from getting into the EU, the one that govern him - does. For the ordinary bulgarian the membership in the EU is just another reason to pay taxes, and he doesn't have the money to. For the governing bulgarian politician it's source of money. And the worst thing is that no one ever asked the people of Bulgaria if they want to join the EU community or not, no one asked them for NATO too. SO basicaly small part of the bulgarians really wanted it. Most likely it's the same on the other places. Bulgarians were nearly 450 years slaves of the turks de facto, and 45 years slaves of the communist de jure and now they are slaves of the EU for 3 years... Many fear that if Turkey get into the EU, Bulgaria is going to be economicaly conquered by Turkey. I don't want to be ruled by some Great Brother (USSR) or Grand Master (Ottomans), I want to see my state finally free. Ruling itself. And the true is that pretty much it's governed by USA, EU and some idiots at the Ministers Council. In conclusion: Yes, bulgarian nation was forced to join by it's goverments.
And also what Kip said. We are more conservative than the EU want from us. And I don't find it wrong.
@Elodin: Whatever you say, it's not right to force whole nation to fallow your political and social system. What if they don't want to? You can't build democracy for a day, or a week, or a year. Or 10. You just can not. So if the USA really care about the democracy then they need to leave the world to rule itself the way it find it ok.
Blizz:
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Time to go off-topic on my own thread. Curiosity has set in:
So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?
JJ:
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Well, Vokial, then don't blame the EU; blame your politicians and send them elsewhere.
Vokial:
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So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?
Never. They knew that if they give us the right of referendum they can not enter the Union and make themselves rich. Also if they give us just one referendum, we may want one more for other important decision, and one more... and one more... etc. They do not want this. The oligarchy is going to be ruined.
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Well, Vokial, then don't blame the EU; blame your politicians and send them elsewhere.
I blame them both, since NOW they both keep making us poor. Along with the communists before 1989.
Kip:
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So there was never any sort of referendum in Bulgaria to determine if people wanted to join the EU or not?
I don't know about what's up in Bulgaria, but in Lithuania after the referendum took place the people rushed to the stores to get free beer and washing powder. In short we were bribed to join.
JJ:
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Then blame the corruptness of your people.
Kip:
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I would rather impale them on a sharpened pole.
Look at Greece. It's a matter of time before the same thing happens in Lithuania(although it already had, only on a much smaller scale)
JJ:
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But the reasons for Greece's crisis (and it's avoiding of state bankruptcy) are extremely debatable.
Do you really think, Lithunia would be better off outside the EU?
I mean, on a more funny sidenote, can't you live all in relative wealth, providing especially Sweden, but the rest of Scandinavia as well, with cheap "duty-free" spirits?
Joonas:
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Everyone knows the Estonia is best place for that.
Kip:
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That's a very good question JJ. And now I'll try to answer it.
In the current situation? Definetely not. With the current ruling body the country's going down. Without the EU it would had happened already. Unemployment is high. Don't look at the statistics it's all bullsnow and made to statisfy the ruling body of EU. Social service sucks. Attending to a university is a luxury. A magisters degree costed me ~3500À (~12000 lithuanian litas). Scholarship is a chicken feed. My brother receives a 28.69(insert a halelujah here) euro scholarship which according to the goverment should bd enough for the WHOLE month. There are alot of other negative things in here. So in the current situation it is better to be in the EU. I can only speculate what it would be like with a ruling body that cares for the people and outside of EU.
Bak:
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The EU is a complicated topic.
Vokial said that corrupt politicians thrive under the EU. But here in Serbia, the lack of the EU or similar higher control is one of the main reasons corruption thrives.
Right wing politicians here are openly against the EU, but I'm getting the feeling that even the more "democratic" ones aren't too eager to join. None of them likes the rules and standards that the EU would impose on them; they prefer to have their own little playground. And I'm not too sure that the West wants us, either, at least until it gets everything it wants from us, in terms of foreign policy, inner policy, and God knows what else.
And then there's the issue of the aforementioned masses; if the anti-EU lot here ain't more numerous, they're certainly at least louder than the pro-EU folks. And quicker to put a "foreign mercenary" / "national traitor" / "snow" label on all who disagree, as well as "react accordingly". And events like the disgraceful recent riots regarding the pride parade are a good example of how easily things can get out of hand.
I myself am not too keen on joining either side, but I am far more disgusted with the "right-wing" one, and do believe that Serbia could benefit from the membership - if we were in the EU all along, things would certainly have gone different for us. So I suppose I'm leaning more toward the EU, even with their cucumber length regulations and gay people dancing through the street in thongs (it would be great if we could somehow avoid that bit, though).
But I can't shake off the feeling that we'd just be put in the same second-class membership basket along with the rest of Eastern Europe.
Sometimes I think that a separate Eastern European democratic union might be a good idea.
Vokial:
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@Kip: Here the university scholarship currently is 0.00 Before that it was 90 leva (around 45 euro), but you need grades like... 5,70 (6.00 is the highest one)
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But here in Serbia, the lack of the EU or similar higher control is one of the main reasons corruption thrives.
@Baklava: Some were thinking the same way. If there is corruption EU can not stop it. It's going to raise since more money are coming to the state, someone have to care about them  Same happened here. Same will happen there. The corruption can not be stopped by some power from outside (EU), but by the powers inside. So the government need to work on it for proper result. And when the government is corrupted... you got the point. EU can be something very good, and can work pretty well, just Eastern Europe is not for there. Leave it to the West. Maybe some sort of Balkan Union can work best for the states around. Or Balkan Union in the Euro Union. It was always great idea. To bad we spend more time in hating each other.
Eastern Europe must first fix the inside problems alone, not hoping the EU to help them. Otherwise the folk pay more taxes... and that's all.
Please let's move this to the other thread if some like to discuss it more.
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JollyJoker
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posted October 18, 2010 06:26 PM |
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I'm a supporter of the EU, even though Germany is the biggest payer. I love the fact that borders are basically non-existant anymore and that I ddon't need to exchange cash. Dealing all over Europe is easy. There is simply one hell of a lot more freedom for the individual person.
The EU will hopefully grow up in time to become something really nice.
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baklava
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posted October 18, 2010 06:29 PM |
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@Joonas
You're just jealous cause the closest you'll get to chicks as hot as ours are reindeers.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 18, 2010 06:31 PM |
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And the rich russian daughters that come here to celebrate every january...
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baklava
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posted October 18, 2010 06:36 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 18:41, 18 Oct 2010.
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Alright, you get to see them once a year.
***
You can never screw them as much as I can steal your wallet.
I am torn between these two clever comebacks, yet both of them would be too much. Just pick the one you prefer.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted October 18, 2010 06:53 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 18:55, 18 Oct 2010.
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Once a year for a month at a time ain't too bad...
That's 30*24=7200 hours. And if you sleep 1/3rd of it that still leaves 4800 hours for messing around.
***
They come here to party and/or annoy their rich dads. You can make your own deductions from that.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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emilsn
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posted October 18, 2010 06:59 PM |
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Good subject  really
I may say this:
EU- we might at well work with EU than against it, we are a part of it and we need to enjoy the benefits
The economics is the best benefit, we all gain a lot from buying from only EU countries and that is of course great
The other side of that is, we isolate other parts of the world because ONLY WE gain from this union and african countries will have a hard time getting into our market - and therefor it is tough for them and tough for people who want to support Fairtrade
EU is imo getting a little to powerful and interfering to much with the indivdual conntries, but as I said, we should work with EU and not against it
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Kipshasz
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posted October 18, 2010 07:03 PM |
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About wasting money: Last year. Lithuania's 1000 year anniversary. Coinsidensely our capital received the right to be the Capital of Culture for that year. There were a lot of events in the capital, including a Bjork gig, which costed a million(in litas) and several "sculptures" which are a plumber's nightmare. Some rusty pipes are considered art?! O.O
also for some of more interesting projects.
2. TWO F-1 racing tracks. A cosmodrome. Driverless taxis and monorails. A red light district. And some others that I can't remember right now. The price for all of them was ~12 million in litas. That's wasting money lithuanian style. And don't get me started on that idiotic palace that is being constructed.
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"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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Darkshadow
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posted October 18, 2010 07:07 PM |
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All this just cause they are trying to look cool?
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Kipshasz
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posted October 18, 2010 07:24 PM |
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Precisely. There are also several million litas spent on the creating the "image" of my country. Young mothers with six kids are kicked into the street for no appearant reason, and the goverment is spending millions on an "image". Idiotism rules!
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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VokialBG
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posted October 18, 2010 07:34 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 19:34, 18 Oct 2010.
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And we spended 7 million, yeah, 7 MILLIONS euro, yeah EURO for video clip about Bulgaria as touristic destination! Idiotism rules!
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Kipshasz
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posted October 18, 2010 07:57 PM |
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Our clip costed 1.7 million. And it was crap. I recomend you to buy the photo album Neregeta Lietuva (Unseen Lithuania), or to visit the country itself although the latest prices scared away all the japanese and german tourists 
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"Kip is the Gavin McInnes of HC" - Salamandre
"Ashan to the Trashcan", "I got PTSD from H7. " - LizardWarrior
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blizzardboy
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posted October 20, 2010 12:30 AM |
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Quote:
Good subject really
I may say this:
EU- we might at well work with EU than against it, we are a part of it and we need to enjoy the benefits
The economics is the best benefit, we all gain a lot from buying from only EU countries and that is of course great
The other side of that is, we isolate other parts of the world because ONLY WE gain from this union and african countries will have a hard time getting into our market - and therefor it is tough for them and tough for people who want to support Fairtrade
EU is imo getting a little to powerful and interfering to much with the indivdual conntries, but as I said, we should work with EU and not against it
*death by smileys*
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blizzardboy
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posted October 20, 2010 12:35 AM |
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IMO, the EU should to continue to expand its power until Europe becomes a country and the individual countries lose their sovereignty.
The big complication is that Europe has such a ridiculously deeply-rooted cultural attachment to their countries that it seems like it would be really hard to ever get people to run with that idea. It's a similar predicament to the US trying to establish a democratic republic in Iraq. The fact is "people would rather be governed poorly by a native government than governed well by an outside one".
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VokialBG
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posted October 20, 2010 05:52 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 17:53, 20 Oct 2010.
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This can not be and must never be done. Everyone is first from his nationality and after that european. Even the guys that's going to rule this super state has a nation, and his actions are going to be in benefits to his nation. The poor and small states in Europe and the EU are going to be assimilated and erased from the worlds map. Bit the big states are going to stay. For now the states in the EU are granding part of their sovereignty to the Union.
Let's say that states like France, UK, France, also smaller states that pretty much declared that they follow their national interest first - like Czech Republic, are going never to sell their interest, their flag, their identity.
In personal point I do not feel european, even with all this propaganda they are throwing around. I don't feel like working for the Union, or caring about it or fight for it, or whatever. I'm from m own nationality before it, much before it and there are many other aspects between them.
The truth is that in this modern world the most important substance, in a state is it's population. The states with bigger population has the chance to survive in the future. And states that are in demographic collapse are fated to disappear. This count not only for Europe.
And I prefer my nation to disappear instead of seeing my grand-grand children calling themselves "europeans" and knowing nothing about their great bulgarian history, culture and ancestors.
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Kipshasz
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posted October 20, 2010 06:15 PM |
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The 'Lisbon pact' is one such attempt to destroy the identity of a nation.
Also what bugs me the most that one of the requirements for joining the EU, was for us to shut down our soviet era nuclear powerplant in several years after we join. It was shutted down in december 31 last year. We had six years which IMO are enough to build a new 'european' nuclear plant. That could've saved a lot of workplaces. But no, who cares about some simple hard working citizens, it's much more better to steal from the budget! With the help of the so called "national invester". Let's congradulate EU on a successful destruction of our energetic independance!
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