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| Thread: Changes can be scary |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 25, 2010 10:05 AM |
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Personally I'm fine with the Breeder in itself, I just don't think it looks right in Inferno, I'd rather see it in a H3-type Dungeon.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 02:02 AM |
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Well, my post was evidently ill-written as it got ignored, so I'll try to make my point again without examples and evidence.
Discussing of whether H6 does or doesn't change this or that aspect of H6 is pointless as changing in itself isn't either an intrinsecally positive or negative thing.
It makes more sense to discuss IF the change was (or wasn't) for the better.
For instance I think mvass is right in assessing that the art style didn't change that much (and more importantly, it sticks to the same concepts) but I find this a positive thing.
I'm not sure about reducing rare resources and cutting guilds because I don't know where they're trying to go yet. It could change the game in a considerably better fashion, though, as both where elements that let luck play a considerable role in certain games, which isn't necessarily a good thing.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 04:14 AM |
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Graphics don't change that much. Artstyle undergoes noticeable change. If the artstyle doesn't change much, we wouldn't have people complaining about how the breeder is out of place, how the vampire is like arthas, how the lich sucks, how haven is more like elven now, how glory is like from tron, how inferno has some alien looks now, etc etc etc. Think about it.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 10:33 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 10:40, 26 Nov 2010.
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Quote:
Graphics don't change that much. Artstyle undergoes noticeable change. If the artstyle doesn't change much, we wouldn't have people complaining about how the breeder is out of place, how the vampire is like arthas, how the lich sucks, how haven is more like elven now, how glory is like from tron, how inferno has some alien looks now, etc etc etc. Think about it.
Ok, but the core concept looks always the same, entangled around the same core over and over. Knights shining in pearl/silver/ivory/gold, with sterns look and ethereal allusions; demons living in a fiery-fire hell with a savage and violent feel; pale undeads with pitch-black armors colored in a ghastly green light. It's basically the same concept as it was since H3, it's evolving a little, but it's not really innovating much.
Taking mages from H3's "Merlin-esque" theme to H5's asian theme was more of a radical restyle - and even then, not that radical really.
Now sure, they put a conscious and noticeable effort in making the Haven look more spiritual, the Inferno look more out-worldly, and the Necromancer look like their own distinct culture but they just kept walking the same path.
Which, once again, I think is a correct approach.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 11:04 AM |
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What you are talking about is theme not artstyle (to my understanding at least), which like you said is pretty much the same throughout the series except for some (more than some actually)factions.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 11:37 AM |
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It's clear to me that our idea of artstyle is not even the same. For me, Lovecraftian style and cartoonish pokemon style are two different artstyle.
To me, H5 doesn't look pokemon-style and H6 doesn't look Lovecraftian style. They look the same.
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Eccentric Opinion
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 11:43 AM |
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I'm talking about the Imp. Mind if you explain what kind of artstyle the Imp has then?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 26, 2010 11:47 AM |
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Oh dear this place is being osmized.
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veco
Legendary Hero
who am I?
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posted November 26, 2010 12:25 PM |
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Edited by veco at 12:26, 26 Nov 2010.
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You are overreacting Elvin.
Mvass, would you care to elaborate? It would be much appreciated if you could make a rough outline on the general vector and gradient of the tendencies of the changes (or striking similarities in case they are non-existent) in both art styles because the message you are trying to convey isn't as clear as it could be.
What does "the same" even mean?
Judging by my own performace I dare say the art styles are easily distinguishable by the average person and thusly they are not "the same" in the meaning common sense grants them.
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none of my business.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 06:22 PM |
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Quote:
What you are talking about is theme not artstyle (to my understanding at least), which like you said is pretty much the same throughout the series except for some (more than some actually)factions.
Well, not exactly. Compare CoH to H5: the factions have exactly the same theme but a quite different artstyle. Let's ask the drawer of the Naruto anime to redesign any of the HoMM faction and they'll never ever look like anything coming from a HoMM game even if the theme and the very creatures from first to last are the same.
Theme =/= style.
But: iperrealistic portrayal, repetitive color scheme, medieval "LotR movies" feel, and the obsessive attempt at making even the smallest creature look imposing make for something more than just the core theme. It's the style H5 launched to the series and it stayed true to H6.
One can't say the artstyle changed just because the H6 skeleton is not the same picture as the H5 skeleton. It stays true to the theme (with a tiny drop of exotic flavor to add) and delivers it in a very similar way.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 08:25 PM |
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Quote:
Well, not exactly. Compare CoH to H5: the factions have exactly the same theme but a quite different artstyle. Let's ask the drawer of the Naruto anime to redesign any of the HoMM faction and they'll never ever look like anything coming from a HoMM game even if the theme and the very creatures from first to last are the same.
Theme =/= style.
But: iperrealistic portrayal, repetitive color scheme, medieval "LotR movies" feel, and the obsessive attempt at making even the smallest creature look imposing make for something more than just the core theme. It's the style H5 launched to the series and it stayed true to H6.
One can't say the artstyle changed just because the H6 skeleton is not the same picture as the H5 skeleton. It stays true to the theme (with a tiny drop of exotic flavor to add) and delivers it in a very similar way.
In H5, I can't take the skeleton seriously now in H6 they actually look like they can kill. In H5, the smallest creature doesn't look imposing at all (Imp, Gremlin, etc). And HoMM is about medieval fantasy (not counting stuff like Kreegan, Forge,etc) but it's quite distinct from LotR feel especially now with creatures like glory and breeder. In fact, some people even go as far as saying H6 is not HoMM anymore just because of the artwork. This is another sign that the artstyle has changed.
All in all, for me the artstyle of H6 gives a different feeling than that of H5.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 26, 2010 11:01 PM |
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All I'm saying is that you could put the H5 Imp and any H6 creature side-by-side and if I didn't know otherwise, I'd have no trouble believing they're from the same game.
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Eccentric Opinion
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2010 04:57 AM |
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Then explain why is that so. Because you give me the impression that you are actually talking about graphics not artstyle.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2010 09:47 AM |
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I think this is derailing more and more from a debate about changes in an evolving game toward a semantic debate on what is artstyle, what is art theme, and what is graphics.
Simply put, as mvass said, you could place the creatures from H6 side to side to H5's and say they are from the same game and no one would find it unlikely. Something you can hardly do with H5 and CoH, or with H3 and H4.
My only dissent being that I don't think that's a minus.
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 27, 2010 12:18 PM |
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Now, I'm confident that you two are talking about graphics. Read my skeleton impression above. I won't argue about this anymore. It's clear that we are just running in circles.
And mvass, here is another significant change in H6: non-random skill selection. Also reduced resources will effect the gameplay too. Creature pool will also effect gameplay.
And Initiave Bar is not a big leap imo, you can play without it, it's just there to help you know creatures order. And following your own argument, Iniative bar exist in countless RPG games.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted November 29, 2010 07:33 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 19:40, 29 Nov 2010.
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Now, I'm confident that you two are talking about graphics. Read my skeleton impression above. I won't argue about this anymore. It's clear that we are just running in circles.
I think you're just giving something a different name to avoid admitting you are wrong.
H5 and H6 have a very similar art style, whether one likes it (me) or not (mvass, I think?). If you don't like calling it art style it just doesn't make any difference, fact is you could take H5 and H6 units and place their concept art (or even their model on the battlefield) side by side without clearly realizing they come from different games. Feel free to call this ironclad fact which whatever name you appreciate the most.
If I place -just on top of my head- Sasori (or just any other character) from Naruto Storm 2 near to the Blood Fury (or just any other humanoid) from H5 anyone can immediately tell they come from different sources because they have a different theme, style, and graphic despite both Naruto's and HoMM's having a fantasy setting.
So, if I had to make a list of the "scary changes" the developers chose for the sixth chapter I'd never list "artistic style" because it remained largely unchanged.
I also think that reducing the whole discussion about what changes H6 will bring and how good will they do to the series to a mere aesthetic discussion isn't doing justice to the topic. So, back to other points:
Quote:
And mvass, here is another significant change in H6: non-random skill selection. Also reduced resources will effect the gameplay too. Creature pool will also effect gameplay.
The last one is indeed a change, but not that innovating if you consider that basically EVERY new instance of HoMM is expected to introduce new creatures.
Skill selection and reduced resources do indeed affect gameplay, as does the removal of the mage guild system. I hypothize all these innovations seek to reduce luck factors.
Quote:
And Initiave Bar is not a big leap imo, you can play without it, it's just there to help you know creatures order. And following your own argument, Iniative bar exist in countless RPG games.
True, but of all things they decided to innovate, initiative bar seemed just an upgrade to the previous system (which was essentially an initiative-based system too, just less intuitive). Thus, without further elements, I can't see that as a smart move.
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Aatos
Adventuring Hero
Heroic Adventurer
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posted November 29, 2010 08:07 PM |
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I think that the artwork form H5 and H6 looks excellent. It's the model in the game that matters.
Squire
from IGN
Praetorian
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fail.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 30, 2010 05:10 AM |
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mytheroes:
I'll grant that the skill choices are a change. (Though I don't know if they'll be good or bad.) So is the decrease in resource types. But by the "initiative" bar I meant the whole system of initiative, as opposed to "everyone with high speed goes first, then everyone with low speed, then everyone with high speed"...
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Eccentric Opinion
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mytheroes
Famous Hero
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posted November 30, 2010 05:15 AM |
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I think you're just giving something a different name to avoid admitting you are wrong.
I could say the same thing to you.
Quote:
If you don't like calling it art style it just doesn't make any difference, fact is you could take H5 and H6 units and place their concept art (or even their model on the battlefield) side by side without clearly realizing they come from different games.
Stop claiming it's a fact when it's not. Me and many other people can easily feel something different about the concept art. Just because you think otherwise doesn't make it a fact. Why I think it's more about graphics? Well, take the Battlecruiser from both Starcraft 1 and 2, they're basically the same but we can easily tell that they're from different games because of the difference in graphics and model. You can tell that it's from the same series/universe, but clearly from different games.
Quote:
The last one is indeed a change, but not that innovating if you consider that basically EVERY new instance of HoMM is expected to introduce new creatures.
I'm not talking about new creatures. I'm talking about how same tier share the same recruitment pool.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted November 30, 2010 08:56 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 09:11, 30 Nov 2010.
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Stop claiming it's a fact when it's not. Me and many other people can easily feel something different about the concept art. Just because you think otherwise doesn't make it a fact. Why I think it's more about graphics? Well, take the Battlecruiser from both Starcraft 1 and 2, they're basically the same but we can easily tell that they're from different games because of the difference in graphics and model. You can tell that it's from the same series/universe, but clearly from different games.
Well, for some reason the initial reaction of most of the people I know who have seen the outlook of the new game (screenshots, videos) was: "What, is this a mod for Heroes V"? Guess why. 
And you don't play with concept art models in the game, you play with the actual creatures, so all this fighting for "the art is different, the graphics aren't" doesn't make much sense. The next Heroes definitely will change a lot of things compared to its predecessors, but the visuals are hardly different from HoMM V.
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