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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Heroes 6 Fortress? - Love it, hate it or discuss it!
Thread: Heroes 6 Fortress? - Love it, hate it or discuss it! [ This thread is 14 pages long: 1 2 (3) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 ]
sith_of_ziost
sith_of_ziost


Promising
Supreme Hero
Scouting the Multiverse
posted January 16, 2011 08:21 PM

What is everybody's fascination with short bearded men riding bears? They were never cool for me in HoMM V and they'd have to be a whole heck of a lot of awesome for me to like them in HoMM VI.

Also, Salamanders? Something associated with the Aztecs? Really? To my knowledge, the closest thing the Norse have to that is something from Muspillheim, but even then, they're usually giants.

Now, I usually never do this, but I shall grace you with a skeleton of my dream fortress.

Sith's Super Special Lineup
-cue elevator music-

Tier 1
Dwarven Shieldguards a la Heroes V(let's face it they're key)

Tier 2
The harpooner's seemed like they were always constipated. Let's go more traditional.

Northerner -> Axegrinder (throwing axemen?)

Tier 3
Get the bear riders the heck away from this.

Fang -> Fenrir (Wolves...with giant fangs...and perhaps barbed tails)

Tier 4

Jotun -> Stoneback Jotun (Giant men, giant clubs, giant pain)

Tier 5

Honorguard -> Einherjar (the Fallen?)

Tier 6

Runepriests

Tier 7
What's probably one of the most famous beasts...ever from Norse Mythology? - Nidhogg. But, there's a problem - what would the actual creature be doing on Ashan, and what distinguishes him from a Wyvern?

Another? Well, Jormundgand's pretty famous, but also aquatic.

What I think fits here are some of the Muspilli in Norse mythology. Sons of Arkath, spawned from his holy fire.

Muspell -> Volcanic Muspell

Thoughts? Comments? Death threats?


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Avirosb Online
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted January 16, 2011 08:37 PM

Quote:
Also, Salamanders? Something associated with the Aztecs? Really? To my knowledge, the closest thing the Norse have to that is something from Muspillheim, but even then, they're usually giants.



Salamanders have nothing to do with Aztec mythology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamander_%28legendary_creature%29

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 16, 2011 09:45 PM

I have no issue with a Dwarf town, or even a mostly Dwarven lineup, but the way it was done in H5 was terrible, Brawler should have been at best a level 2, Bear Rider level 4/5, the fire dragon was unnecessary, etc. As for my lineup, here it is in a traditional form:
tier 1 Propper > Miner
tier 2 Kob > Kobold (in the sense of the traditional mine-guarding spirit, not the D&D lizard)
tier 3 Bolter > Dampbolter
tier 4 Fyrd > Huskarl
tier 5 Cave Bear > War Bear
tier 6 Runekeeper > Runecarver
tier 7 Giant > Colossus

And in the new form:
Core
Propper > Miner
Kob > Kobold
Bolter > Dampbolter

Elite
Fyrd > Huskarl
Cave Bear > War Bear
Runekeeper > Runecarver

Champion
Giant > Colossus

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Naze
Naze


Known Hero
posted January 16, 2011 11:04 PM

As many others, I also loved the rune system and hated the dwarven line up. Nevertheless, I would love to see them in H6 as a kind of minor/secondary faction. What do I mean?

Well... you could not choose to play for the faction from the beginning, but you could seize and control their town during game. They would have only about half of the structures of a "orthodox" town (Haven, Inferno, Necropolis, Stronghold, Sanctuary) and just a limited line-up (let's say 4 units), but would grant a extra benefit in the form of a new kind of magic.

The minor factions could be:
- dwarves with their rune magic
- dark elves with elemental vision, elemental rage etc. (Why not making them a whole new faction? In the time of H6, they will be just a band of outcasts and refuges...)
- the Free Cities with some new form of magic/other benefits

What do you think?
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LordGodric
LordGodric


Known Hero
The Griffin Rider
posted January 16, 2011 11:21 PM

I personaly love the dwarves, and would like to see then again in H6. the style of the faction, the design, the art, everything was fantastic back in H5... excepet for the units line up, which happens to be the core of any faction, so that pail ruined a very good faction...
I wouldent mind to have a female dwarf unit, a rune priestess, for example, or a female bear rider, having them beard or not. But just dont make the shield guards female, the cannon fodders have to be male.

My ideias:
CORE:
*Guardian - Defender (slow short range shooter)
They use a shield and trow axes. Should be better at melee than in ranged attack, actually.
They should have an ability that if an alied unit is adjacent to them they get part of the demage.
* Grizzly Bear - Black Bear (slow chavalry)
Sturdy, could be armored.
Should have and ability like 'fear' or something like that, that makes the enemy move 2 squares away. Unlimited reataliation.
* Wisp - Fire Wisp (supportive)
I don't know if anyone have played 'ancient empires 2'. I played in a friend cellfone. the wisps there gave bonuses to adjacent units, it could be more or less the same.

ELITE:
* Rune Priest - Rune Keeper (shooter/caster)
Having on it spellbook a blessing spell like "stoneskin", or even deflect missle, and another like "blood lust". The upgrad should gain an attack of area spell, a fireball or circle of winter like one.
* Snow Wyrm - Frozen Wyrm (mid-fast melee)
It's a weird example, but, did anyone already know the snowager? -google it on images, you'll see it.
It could move by diggin the ground, and have an active ability, more or less like grffin's dive attack, of course with the wyrm emerging from the underground. it also should have cold resitence and fire weakness. It could by pass walls and terrain obstacles, just like a flyer.
* Stone Giant - Colossus(very slow melee tank)
Very rustic, unlike the wizards golens, use a huge stone hammer.
This should have an 'cool down time' ability. He atcs normaly 2 turns, and skips the 3rd, acting normaly the next two, and skiping the other, and so on, of couser it would reataliate normaly in the turn it skips. Also, it would do a hell lot of demage and have magic resistance.

CHAMPION:
* Ancient Eagle - Thunder Eagle (mid-slow flyer)
The unic true flyer of the faction. It should have runes painted all over the body. and have an ability like "storm aura", so when it flies over an enemy it couses small thunder demage to it.

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 16, 2011 11:23 PM

I think dwarves won't come back due to a variety of reasons seeing the design policy behind H6. But I'd be very happy if they do, though at the moment wizards and elves are more necessary due to story purpose.

I liked the Fortress faction and its execution in gameplay and lore. Dwarves can be a complex, dignified and intriguing faction just as elves can be (not that I dislike elves, mind you).

As pretty much everyone, I still have to agree the lineup was somehow disappointing. In the variety of fantasy lores dwarves have been linked to:

- fire
- ice
- earth
- ancient runes
- steampunk machines
- enchanted weapons/objects/jewelry
- gnomes and/or mechagnomes
- undergound demons (see Balrog)
- norse mythology

And the ONLY non-dwarf thing we get is magmas (wich I don't hate at all by the way)?!? Seriously, why this Ubi? It's like they decided to purposedly ignore the 70% of dwarven lore that was already out there and made up an unnecessarily monotonous faction.

I think many don't want them to return just because of how they were executed, wich is a sad fate indeed.

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SBlister
SBlister


Famous Hero
Rakshasa Commander
posted January 17, 2011 03:25 AM

Its very simple. Make a Fortress line up as follows:

Core:
Brawler-Berserker
Grizzly Rider-Kodiak Rider
Runekeeper-Runewarden (the old rune priest)
put all the dwarven units as core.

Elite:
Valkyrie-Verdant Valkyrie (a flying horse ridden by a female frost nymph of sorts)
Frost Giant-Storm Giant (same as the thane but they're blue skinned giants)
? (some non dwarven creature which i can't think of)
put all the non-dwarven creatures here.

Elite:
Lavamander-Magamander (Same as the fire dragon except weaker in HP and armor, but can spit lava at their enemies from long distances)

There. That should make a good enough fortress.
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admira
admira


Promising
Famous Hero
posted January 17, 2011 04:01 AM

SBlister: The problem with Ashan's Dwarven is they are children of Arkath of Fire Dragon so ice-theme will be contradicted with the themes.

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evinin
evinin


Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
posted January 17, 2011 05:11 AM
Edited by evinin at 05:11, 17 Jan 2011.

Quote:
SBlister: The problem with Ashan's Dwarven is they are children of Arkath of Fire Dragon so ice-theme will be contradicted with the themes.


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alcibiades
alcibiades

Hero of Order
and Light
posted January 17, 2011 06:12 AM

Hmm, trying to make a bit of status here. I've been following the discussion from the sideline, and there seems to be one point at which we can reach concensus: Practically everybody want The Defender and The Runepriest to stay.

The question at the moment seems to be: What theme do we want for this town - should we stay with UbiSoft's fire theme or instead go with a nordish ice theme. One should probably keep in mind whether we want to keep this faction within the context and the frames of the existing game, or just make it free imagination - in case of the former, I think one has to accept the fire theme.

On the other hand, several factions have abandoned their previous level 7's (perhaps promoting them to boss status), so there would be nothing wrong in promoting the Magma Dragon and go with a full northern-associated creature line-up - they could still worship the Dragon of Fire as evident by the fire association of the Rune Priest.

So what do you guys think is the best theme - Fire, Ice or something else?
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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted January 17, 2011 06:24 AM
Edited by Mytical at 08:52, 17 Jan 2011.

Dwarves are best known for their forge.  However, Ubi is missing one key element here.  Earth.  The Dwarves, while some of the best smiths in the land, are not creatures of fire OR ice. Their roots come from the sturdiest of elements. While they may worship the dragon of fire, that should not change much.

Here is a line up I envision, though some names would need to be tweaked as they would under copyright of Wizards of the Coast*.

Basic Units.
Wolf - Worgs*
Sentry - Sentinel
Amber Hulk - Umber Hulk (both would need changed, but the idea is sound).

Elite Units
Thane - Urthane
Giant Worm - Purple Worm (absolutely need better names)
Troll - Sea Troll

Champion
Unkown.

I am thinking for champion something Forged.  A mechanical/magic construct mixed.  Just what to call it would be another matter.

As for abilities, descriptions, etc of the ones listed...
Wolf - Worgis pretty much self explanatory.  While worgs are more associated with evil/etc (and orcs) some of those mountain wolves could get pretty sizable.  The Worg would be mostly black, huge, etc.

The wolf ability would stay the same (ie call temporary reinforcements), while the Worg would have a Terror effect like the nightmares had.

Sentry/Sentinel would just be the shieldguard under different names.

Amber Hulk/Umber Hulk - Large Creature
Living Shield (triggered ability)- Hulks can intercept any non-magical attack for a friendly unit that is standing in an adjacent square (except other Hulks).  However, because they willingly take the attack, the Hulks take an additional 10% damage.

Frenzy - Whenever 25% or more of the stack has died, they fly into a Frenzy..doing extra damage, but attacking the nearest unit..be they friend or foe. If they regain units that take them to 24% or less lost units (be it regeneration, ressurection, etc) they lose the frenzy.

Umber Hulk only - Focus- They no longer attack just any unit, but keep the extra damage.  However, remember if they go under that 25% lost for any reason, they no longer have the extra damage.

Thane is just Thane , and the Urthane just a changed upgraded name for them.  Same abilities.

Still working on these

Worms would have some sort of burrow ability, with the upgraded version having also taking an additional 'unit' from the stack it attacks (basically swallowing one whole)..if the whole stack of upgraded is killed before it's next turn the 'swallowed' unit would 'regenerate' in the stack it was taken from.  I'll work on official abilities I promise.

The Sea troll..would add a 'freezing touch' (percent chance to have an affect that freezes the stack it attacks), and regenerate just a tad more then normal trolls.  
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 17, 2011 06:46 AM
Edited by MattII at 07:05, 17 Jan 2011.

Not ice, definitely not ice, in Norse myth the Icy land of Helheim (AKA 'House of Hel') is where 'evil men' go when they die, making it analogous to the Christian Hell, only with ice rather than fire.

Also, I fail to see the link between Dwarves, and those Hulks, Worms and Trolls.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted January 17, 2011 07:13 AM

While I am working on the other faction's abilities and Champion unit..if you want a Norse faction, here is my suggestion.

Basic Units
Wolf - Vargr
Berserker - Rager (need better name)
Battle Boar - Gullinbursti ((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullinbursti))

Elite Units
Worm - Lindworm ((http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindworm))
Thane - ???
??? - ??? (will need to work on this one)

Champion
War Maiden - Valkyrie
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Properkheldar
Properkheldar


Known Hero
Keeper of books
posted January 17, 2011 07:54 AM

I donīt really mind generic factions (I at least donīt hate them only because they are generic). If a faction is to include mostly creatures from the same "race" (like dwarfs) it still has to be done in a good way with interesting visual differences, roles on the battlefield and have a explanation based in lore. Dwarves for me fit well to be generic, they are often secluded societies, minding their own business (sometimes almost "racists" depending on what universe u look at). I think that the dwarves in H5 struggled a bit because they felt a bit "tossed in", they need a firm connection to the world and to the events that the storyline of the game deals with. If a potential expansion is to handle the birth of the dungeon faction it could for example also handle the dwarves facing a new threat from the dark elves seeking their place underground.

The dwarven lineup in H5 could have had something other then the thanes and the magma dragons though. They could at least have made the thanes less "iīm a giant dwarf"-like, and the dragon slot was crowded already. I donīt think they should have a nordic theme or be connected to ice, that element seems to belong to the nagas now and nordic dwarves is a bit to common for me. They should get an overall theme of some sort though so they donīt just feel like the average dwarfs, something to spice them up and make them more "unique". Seeing how Ubi has treated the orcs and nagas in H6 leaves me quite comfortable if they were to introduce the dwarves once again, and as have been said, they had an interesting rune ability that could be explored a lot more.  

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Momo
Momo


Promising
Known Hero
posted January 17, 2011 08:08 AM
Edited by Momo at 08:20, 17 Jan 2011.

Quote:

So what do you guys think is the best theme - Fire, Ice or something else?


I think the best theme are the ones that already is out there - runic magic, specialization in defense, a militarized culture. I also think that when you depict dwarves as living in underground cities near to magmatic cracks and surrounded by snow, by necessity earth, fire and ice came to mind as elements familiar to the faction, with a preference for fire among those since the dwarven as usually depicted as great forgers.

If anything, I think the crafting abilities of the dwarves, usually depicted as a culture centered around weaponsmiths and architets, could be more pushed. Enchanted armors/war machines could be a way to go in this respect.

There are still more options out there. In many fantasy settings, the dwarves have an attitude to discover new magical beings while digging deeper and deeper underground. I think that like elves had sprites and unicorns, dwarves can have gnomes and balrogs.

Then, as you said I don't want the firedragons to go. I didn't even wanted the dragon-golems to go from academy, and I don't understand at all this generalized "give us no more dragons" cry. Firedragons had a place in Ashan lore, played nicely and was a reasonably strong unit. I'd like them to stay and I see no real reason to affirm they shouldn't.

Runepriest and Defenders are of course the most vital troops to preserve the faction's identity as they connect to their main themes. Another sort of dwarven unit could be considered, but the one already around in HV were quite disappointing.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 17, 2011 08:19 AM

Quote:
You fail to see that? I fail to see the use of playing with 6 dwarves with different weapons, but okay that is my personal taste.
Yeah, well I've kind of got the idea that you and I are not going to agree on anything.

Quote:
I rather play with something like mythical suggested, so I can make my own story out of it, I hate the different weapon thing, I always ignore the harpoon guy, the berserker guy and the thane in hommV when I play it, I won't even attack them.
Well I have to agree on some points, the Brawler was way IMO at least two levels too high, the Spearwielder didn't strike me as actually dwarfish (hypocritically, I think the Tolkien-esqe/Traditional style of dwarves are actually kinda cool, while I hold basically the opposite opinions about elves and humans), and I always felt the thane was just a bit on the big side for being a dwarf, but too small to be a giant or anything.

Quote:
I think the artifact-crafting abilities of the dwarves could be more pushed. Enchanted armors/war machines could be a way to go.
IMO they should have swapped the Academy and Fortress faction skills, or at least given Artificier to the Dwarves, and come up with a more magical ability for Academy.

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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 17, 2011 08:27 AM
Edited by MattII at 08:28, 17 Jan 2011.

Quote:
The biggest reason they should NEVER make a dwarf faction again because it really destroys the spirit that brings homm fans togheter.

Really this dwarf-nonsence brings war to homm-forums and nobody can agree with eachother, everybody starts to protect the dwarves, fight the dwarf haters or hate the dwarves.

This can destroy an entire homm-forum.

Really there are too much haters and dwarf-haters-haters to make this faction possible.

I hope BH learned from their mistakes with HOMMV expansion and never do this again.

Just create Academy, Dungeon and Sylvan and leave the dwarf fortress for the rats and maggots.
Actually, it's the arrogant, hypocritical opinions like this that cause more grief than anything. Oh sure, there are strong feelings on both sides, but seriously if anyone thinks that a single debate about such a minor issue is going to tear a forum apart then they're kidding themselves, because most of the people here are capable of differentiating one issue from another, and agreeing to disagree without shouting and throwing insults.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted January 17, 2011 08:30 AM

The connection to the Umber Hulks, Worms, et al is the dwelling place. For the most part Dwarves are depicted as miners.  The mines are well, underground.  Umber Hulks and Purple worms are underground creatures, and as such the Dwarf people would either have to A) fight them on a regular basis, or B) Coexist with them.  Mostly they are traditionally fighting with them, but I see no reason why coexisting would be forbidden.

Trolls also are known to inhabit caves (and thus mines)  
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MattII
MattII


Legendary Hero
posted January 17, 2011 08:34 AM

They're better than humans then, because our own actions in such situations have been pretty shoddy. Of course, co-existence doesn't necessarily mean banding together either, they could simply stay away from each other.

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Mytical
Mytical

Hero of Order
Chaos seeking Harmony
posted January 17, 2011 08:34 AM

True, but that wouldn't make much of a faction now would it?
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