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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Design
Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Design This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 26, 2011 04:57 PM

It's not that I have to decide. I rather would reserve me a veto right. Beyond that it's a community effort and it should be.

Right of Conquest sounds right indeed, but I also like Hall of Decision. Maybe we should come up with two new final game modi that have subtle differences and justify two names.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted April 27, 2011 04:31 PM

@Pyrostock
Quote:
Many map makers aren't aware of this AI flaw so it's not uncommon for some to design tight/narrow areas.


I brought this here to the design thread to discuss a bit. I am glad you've brought this difficulty up. I see 2 causes as you've said. I can't speak to the A.I. part but being a mapper, I'm interested in what is best to do, since part of this can be the adventure world we create.

Many of us like to have long bridges at times and those are usually around large bodies of water. So, I've been in that slow-down. but I don't see that "always as a bad thing". Sort of like in the movie Patton where the mules on the bridge are slowing down his tanks.  But the caravan issue + the accumulating creatures from the "week-of" (and A.I. heroes avoid them)are adding to what I see as a sort-of design mandate once made with vanilla H5. "that they made travel routes narrow" to improve A.I. performance.

I think I remember that this will not matter in 5.5. but I'm not sure at this point about the whole picture. It may be a while before Q can zero in on this.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 27, 2011 11:29 PM

This rather is an issue for the bug thread. There is code in the AI to resolve heroes blocking each others paths. If it doesn't work it's a bug. If you have to design your content in a way to work around deficiencies in the AI there is something fundamentally wrong.

The AI's performance doesn't degrade on open terrain. You can make the entire impossible sized map, both floors, one open area and it will work just as well. On the other hand, feel free to use narrow bridges or tight passes wherever you like. One way or another, if there are issues we will improve the AI.

In this context I have a request. Please don't write speculative posts if things can be measured fairly easily. Why? For one, it just sidetracks us. Secondly, why should we discuss something that can be easily measured. Try it out and measure it.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted April 28, 2011 12:55 PM

I would like to further discuss this modding interface, because at the moment I can't visualise it. Perhaps I missed something along the way. What form would this interface take? Would it resemble the Wake of the Gods interface a la check boxes? If so, would it refresh and display new mods whenever they were dropped in the mods folder?  

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted April 28, 2011 12:58 PM

Did not expect you to be here for a while. Sorry, Did not see it as a bug only but also affected by 'designing' choices and didn't want to forget it. Just trying to help a very busy man.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted April 29, 2011 12:35 AM

Quote:
Did not expect you to be here for a while. Sorry, Did not see it as a bug only but also affected by 'designing' choices and didn't want to forget it. Just trying to help a very busy man.

Who did proclaim that wizard Quantomas is doing extended lab work currently? Definitely not me.

Regarding the modding interface, yes it is planned to have every enhancement selectable from within the game. Check boxes and most likely predefined sets of enhancements that kind of enable a flavour of the game.

Technically, we will need to sort out the UI. I also will set up a specific EE folder structure for the data paks and mods. I rather like not to pollute the core installation data directories, so that we can add our own interfaces without modifying the original game, i.e. the user will be able to run either without backtracking data files.

Whether we would like to have new modifications to show up dynamically is a technical detail we need to look into when the time is right. While it looks like a neat feature, it might also cause trouble and affect stability.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted April 29, 2011 05:32 PM

Hi Quantomas, this sounds all really great! but lookout this enormous ambition and heavy forum activity doesn't pose too much stress on you.
It would be a pity if you have to stop the project halfway. There are enough great games coming to entertain us with (HOMM6, Disciples 3 gold, witcher 2, Mass effect 3 etc.). So I would say take all the time you need to turn H5 into a real masterpiece. I think by the time you will have all framework stuff finished I will have more time to make xml code for new content.
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 05, 2011 06:29 AM
Edited by Nargott at 06:30, 05 May 2011.

It would be nice to develop a ghost mode. So that this time the player could use the global spells which require resources (as in the Disciples). Spell could be casted by the ghost, zone of availability is limited radius.
Also, I would like to option was to build the city and / or troops and heroes in ghost mode. That the player was, what to do during the turn of the opponent. As an option let the players can build and hire only during turn of others, ie, in ghost mode.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 08, 2011 08:22 PM

Cheers, Magnomagus and Markkur for keeping my back free. 3.1b is out now.

@Nargott:
I am not sure about the ghost mode. I think the player should have the option to do something while other players sort out their turn. But I tend to look more in the direction like the new spell research that is planned. Sort of being in a wizards tower and tinkering, and then being alerted to moves of opponents by a small popup screen. But we really have to think about how far we are about to go in adding new features. Maybe it's wise to set a limit somewhere.

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mfdoom
mfdoom


Hired Hero
posted May 08, 2011 09:22 PM

Is is possible to add new towns?

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 09, 2011 02:34 PM
Edited by Nargott at 15:11, 09 May 2011.

Quote:

I am not sure about the ghost mode. I think the player should have the option to do something while other players sort out their turn. But I tend to look more in the direction like the new spell research that is planned. Sort of being in a wizards tower and tinkering, and then being alerted to moves of opponents by a small popup screen. But we really have to think about how far we are about to go in adding new features. Maybe it's wise to set a limit somewhere.


But I think that extended ghost mode and global magic can be interesting and important part of the game. It opens more possibilities than simply additional spells, because it's new technology. Don't you want to see powerful global magic (as in the Disciples) in the HoMM5.5?

Also, global magic solves a problem of spending resources in the middle and late game.

Let the player have enough time for the ghost, global cast and building during oponnent's turn. Let his main turn to begin only after he ends his ghost time. This time may be optionally limited (for example, by minute).

I think that global magic is very cool, if it has nice realization. And it seems that the ghost mode is potentially very interesting idea which need to develop.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 10, 2011 12:17 PM

Quote:
Quote:

I am not sure about the ghost mode. I think the player should have the option to do something while other players sort out their turn. But I tend to look more in the direction like the new spell research that is planned. Sort of being in a wizards tower and tinkering, and then being alerted to moves of opponents by a small popup screen. But we really have to think about how far we are about to go in adding new features. Maybe it's wise to set a limit somewhere.


But I think that extended ghost mode and global magic can be interesting and important part of the game. It opens more possibilities than simply additional spells, because it's new technology. Don't you want to see powerful global magic (as in the Disciples) in the HoMM5.5?

Also, global magic solves a problem of spending resources in the middle and late game.

Let the player have enough time for the ghost, global cast and building during oponnent's turn. Let his main turn to begin only after he ends his ghost time. This time may be optionally limited (for example, by minute).

I think that global magic is very cool, if it has nice realization. And it seems that the ghost mode is potentially very interesting idea which need to develop.

No disagreement here. Think big!

Spell research is not limited to tactical spells. It can easily be a big global spell that you probably associate with ghost mode. A spell that can trigger changes in the terrain, summon creatures, guards, magic obstacles, portals - whatever you can come up with. The key is that this global spell research is tied to the land, you can place triggers, determine how the land changes, how the magic of the land calls forth creatures and protectors (heroes), how the combat magic is altered on tiles and how creatures can transform.

It's a bit like in the high fantasy books where the wizards weave a web of magic with their mind. It will involve discipline, imagination, skills, mana and resources. Sort of a true contest of wits to create awesome spells with exceptional power. This is in stark contrast to what we have right now, that is merely choosing and pressing buttons.

These spells can involve for instance an earth quake in a previously unsuspicious stretch of desert, the summoning of fireflies and a trigger for a firestorm once a hero enters the area which in turn will transform each firefly into a phoenix. Guards and creatures will then pounce on the unsuspecting hero. But keep in mind what you are asking for. The hero will have appropriate counter measures for the game to remain balanced and mana can easily become a priceless resource in the game.

What I am not sure of is whether this needs a ghost mode. It might make some sense to apply a unique magical spell to the land for example between the different player turns, i.e. allowing it before a player gets control for his or her turn. In multiplayer this can become an awesome contest but this is at the very end of the roadmap, first we need all the single player mechanics for it.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 11, 2011 10:02 AM

Quote:

What I am not sure of is whether this needs a ghost mode. It might make some sense to apply a unique magical spell to the land for example between the different player turns, i.e. allowing it before a player gets control for his or her turn. In multiplayer this can become an awesome contest but this is at the very end of the roadmap, first we need all the single player mechanics for it.


Because of the balance. Casting global spells on its turn gives to player giant advantage over the enemy before the attack.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 11, 2011 01:35 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 13:40, 11 May 2011.

Here is my concept for the Hall of Decision and Right of Conquest victory conditions:

The victory condition will be available once one player reaches a superior position. Other triggers are open to discussion. Once the victory condition is enabled a special building will appear on the map, preferably in a random remote location.

The first player who visits the victory building gets to choose whether it's going to be a Hall of Decision or Right of Conquest and receives a worthy bonus in the final stage.

The Right of Conquest is an arena death match. All heroes above a certain power threshold become combatants, with their army and artefacts transferred intact. The matches of the first round are determined by a draw. The looser is out of the competition while the winner gets a bonus. Ideally, the winner will be presented after each round with an arena match victory screen on which to select a bonus, receive and exchange artefacts from the opponent etc. It will also be possible to use the bonus or a part of it to replenish some mana. It's open to discussion whether the player's resources and potential recruits in the towns can be factored in or whether the arena master can offer special rewards. Combat results are announced each round with the player given an option to view the fights. The last standing hero wins the game.

Ideas? Do we have volunteers for designing an interface for the arena match result/bonus screen?

The Hall of Decision plays out on a tiny map, some underground cavern perhaps, no towns. Vision will be limited to the hero's view. That is the player can only observe what the hero can actually see. This allows for some neat dungeon design with different chambers and doors. A bit like the old dungeon master games. You don't know what's behind the door until you open it. There can be guards, rewards and portals.

The strongest hero of each player is teleported to the Hall of Decision once this victory condition is initiated. It's not simply a catch and kill game, but rather a subtle endeavor that will also allow for the underdog to win the day. Imagine five fountains of different color placed in the Hall of Decision. The hero who visits all fountains and reaches the exit first wins the game. The fountains might confer considerable boni and its color might be a key, for example to pass through strong garrisons or portals.

---

@Nargott
If you think of the global spells as triggers it *actually* confers more power to the player if these spells can be placed outside of the player's main turn. It might make the game more involved if you can choose let's say just before the green player's turn to set a trigger for a neat ice storm at your southern border, and then another one, maybe a meteor shower, before the teal player's turn. No doubt, it can spice up the game and mana might be gained from special pools somehow being refilled as the players take their turns.

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TheBaron
TheBaron


Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
posted May 11, 2011 03:43 PM

I think both of these ideas are excellent (especially because I named one of them )

I especially like the HoD minigame, at the moment RoC sounds like a clear leading hero would just smash the others... but maybe that's the point.

@Nargott and Quantomas
I haven't seen these kind of weather/environmental effects on the adventure map, so I can't really comment on global spells like ice storms, meteor showers etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but that sounds like a pretty hefty programming task if there aren't already those kinds of effects coded, right?

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted May 11, 2011 04:05 PM

Quote:
Do we have volunteers for designing an interface for the arena match result/bonus screen?


I will make some, however I encourage others to jump-in with work/ideas.

Does anyone know off-hand the battlefields size? I am going to take a peek to count the tiles for myself. <IMO> For those that could use a guide; this would be a great starting point to create the arena's "imprint" on a tiny map.

Quote:
If you think of the global spells as triggers it *actually* confers more power to the player if these spells can be placed outside of the player's main turn.


Q this is great. When reading earlier about ghost-mode, I had this very scene play out. Just as the Academy town has those mines in front of the walls, I imagined, that I was awaiting my turn and an opponent tried to come through a mountain gap to my valley. My "Summon Elementals" ended the "weak-hero-mission" to turn my gold mine (I was not near the region at the moment) and also made me aware of his awareness.  

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 11, 2011 05:09 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 17:13, 11 May 2011.

Quote:
at the moment RoC sounds like a clear leading hero would just smash the others...

Not necessarily.

First, there is the bonus for the player who reaches the building. This can be an obvious one, like a powerful artefact or a stack of creatures, its size calculated in relation to the army of the strongest hero, so that it is actually a force to be reckoned with.

But there is more, the bonus could also be a choice of alteration to the arena rules. For example, negating some artefacts or attribute boni, or making the repleneshing of mana between the rounds quite difficult, so that heroes who rely on their spells run into difficulties ... There is no limit for this type of stuff except our imagination.

If the most powerful player reaches the victory building first, we can add the Mysterious Hero to the roster of combatants, sort of the antithesis of the player's main hero in respect of faction, creatures and playing style. The Mysterious Hero can be of equal power to give the main player a challenge still.

Then there is the element of chaos in which order the combatants are drawn. It can happen that the two most powerful heroes clash first and the survivor suffers heavy casualties. Not to forget that fights against some heroes, for example Fortress with refresh and fine rune plus rune of resurrection, or armageddon or divine vengeance spells, can cause way more casualties to a victor then might be expected.

So, it can be quite the minigame on its own. The arena match screen can be as versatile as a H3 town screen, with different buildings to visit. For example, the arena master who can offer a choice of benefits for a price, a trade guild to exchange artefacts, a mentor and a tavern to talk to your opponents or be congratulated by the heroes you defeated and who might give you the odd useful trinket.

The potential is there. If we can get the tasks and work sorted out it can be quite an interesting game stage.

Regarding the weather effects, I haven't looked into how effects on the adventure map are coded yet. But my guess is, that they are somehow recorded in an animation format, and once we have this figured out we can have modders work on the weather and spell effects. This would allow us to separate the tasks, that we have people working on the animation and I can focus on coding the impact of the spells.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 12, 2011 06:48 AM
Edited by Nargott at 06:52, 12 May 2011.

@Quantomas:
Personally, I do not like that on global spell in your system spent mana. I think that cast such solid things should the city (City Wizards), spending resources, as in the Disciples. A single hero can not simply create the effects of such a global level.
Also, the spells in the the turn of the enemy (the ghost mode) open more opportunities (balanced) than just the trigger.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 13, 2011 12:13 PM

Quote:
Personally, I do not like that on global spell in your system spent mana. I think that cast such solid things should the city (City Wizards), spending resources, as in the Disciples.

Quote:
It will involve discipline, imagination, skills, mana and resources.

I mean that.

Apart from that I think we should not have global spells that do direct damage. This would destroy the balance of the game. If they are implemented as triggers though it allows for the proper balance, i.e. giving the player a chance to counter a magic attack that is triggered or react appropriately in some other way.

Disciples III rather has a very flat strategical gameplay. Technically, it's quite easy to attack your opponents with spells first and then finish them off. So, it's rather a game to acquire the necessary resources and spells. As such it's a brilliant concept that we can mirror to strengthen the gameplay, to give resources, mana and magic much more meaning. But we won't want to take from what we have but instead add to it more depth, more interesting gameplay without sacrificing what we have or making things unduly complex. To come up with a smart design is a key here.

I guess most folks here will be busy for a month or so playing the Witcher 2. I wished I could too. I played the original enhanced edition, and in many ways I found it was as stellar from the design, depth and gameplay as the original Deus Ex back in 1999. RED used in many ways the same formula which turned out absolutely great in a fantasy setting.

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markkur
markkur


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
posted May 13, 2011 02:30 PM

@Q

In my example of "a pass blocked by spell to kill a weak hero on a treasure hunt and trying to turn mines" I can see that it is how I did this that could get out of hand in a game.

Remembering your vision of the world, what if certain terrain "enabled the building of a particular magic outpost"?

This outpost blocking my mountian pass could have a special effect.

a. A small army pops up...ambush (food tile)
b. low-level destruct triggers (cell for that magic enhancement)
c. "only a dialogue" begins between the intruder and region owner. "rare wine cell"

OK...only "B" for now.

As you have stated, the land would play a big part in which would be possible, coupled with Hero's skills.
i.e. Destruct magic plus "fire-cell" = Fireball outpost, that fires once and spell power depends on the hero level that made it (ofc the power could be fixed with the structure and only have 2 or 3 power-versions and maybe there are "richer magic cells?" that set the building level) and can be destroyed by 1 or 2 attacks.

I think I understand better what you have meant with "being careful what we choose to do." or words to that effect.
____________
"Do your own research"

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