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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Design
Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Design This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 13, 2011 08:17 PM

Quote:

Disciples III rather has a very flat strategical gameplay. Technically, it's quite easy to attack your opponents with spells first and then finish them off.

But require strong map control, it's important.
In ghost mode, with ghost-radius of spellcasting, balance is keeping, with any type of global magic (not onle trigger). Because an opponent have a time to response, always.

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Nargott
Nargott


Known Hero
posted May 14, 2011 05:51 PM

I do not insist, but I would like to be able to create normal global spells (not just the class of trigger). In particular, direct damage spells, buffs / debuffs, summon creatures. This is much broader than simply triggers. And the ghost mode allows them to be realized balanced.

For example, the enemy casts magic in your turn in order to attack in his next turn. And his next turn gets your magic in response.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 15, 2011 03:59 PM

Well, I don't see why you would want spells that do direct damage to the hero armies on the map. The heroes and their armies are kind of the backbone of the game and all other things, the entire balance, revolves around it.

Still, I can make the spell design open to modding that you can do something like that. Maybe special rules for the ghost mode. In multiplayer all participants have to agree to the modified rules for a game, so it shouldn't be a big problem there.

But this is quite a long way ahead in the roadmap. First, the single player mechanics have to be implemented, and multiplayer must come after this because it relies on the single player mechanics as well.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 17, 2011 02:12 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 14:13, 17 May 2011.

I find the custom game menu unorganized at the moment with all those functions under the bonus-choice menu. I was wondering if you could extent the amount of choices under the difficulty slider so the balance option can be removed. For example why not include all the following options under the difficulty slider:

1. Easy (same as before)
2. Normal (same as before)
3. Balanced (AI as hard, but not cheating, all players same standard amount of resources, I would consider 20000 gold standard)
4. Hard (same as before)
5. Heroic (same as before)
6. Bankrupt (same as heroic but human players start with absolutely zero resources)
7. Deathmatch (same as heroic but all players start with huge amount of resources, resources same as easy)
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 17, 2011 04:30 PM

Hall of Decision Map Design

I would like to invite all talented map makers to a small contest to design the map for the forthcoming Hall of Decision endgame in Heroes V.

This can incorporate all kinds of ideas to offer a truly interesting challenge. I would also like to invite all veteran players who have an indepth understanding of the game to come up with a rough design sketch. If you don't feel you are good at map design but have the right ideas for the map and the gameplay on it, we can accept that and have other people work out and beautify the map itself.

Here are the basics:

No towns, the strongest heroes of all players on the adventure map are teleported to a random location in the Hall of Decision at the beginning.

Five differently coloured fountains are placed on the map. The first player who visits all and reaches a specified exit building wins the game. The gameplay is not about heroes building up their experience or armies, but rather about using their existing skills and strength to succeed.

The map will run in a special mode, which limits the vision of the player to the first person perspective of the hero. The hero can not see around corners or through doors. I will also implement special logic for whatever the map designer requests (and is feasible) that goes way beyond scripts. That means, you don't need to write scripts, this task is handled directly here. If you wish adventure objects to work differently or serve special functions just write a note.

My original idea was to have a dungeon with tiny rooms each offering a special challenge and reward, like in the old dungeon master games. Additionally the colour of the fountains can confer considerable boni and can serve as a key to bypass strong garrisons without a fight or use special portals. Here is a very rough sample for all who do not know what I mean with small rooms and dungeons. Ideally these rooms will have proper doors to hide what is behind them.

But anything good is welcome, if you have better ideas than dungeons let your creativity reign free with a focus on the gameplay. The size of the map is your choice, but preferably not bigger than necessary to suit the intended playing style and underground.

What you get in return:

Well, we can't offer more than full credits and that your map gets a central role in Heroes 5.5. If there are more good contenders we can also choose to have a set of Hall of Decision maps that are either selected randomly or choosen by the player who reaches the victory building on the adventure map. But the best reward will be the fun to play the Hall of Decision map instead of the boredom to grind down the remaining opponents on the adventure map.

---

@Magnomagus
The difficulty settings should be reorganised sooner or later particularly because the AI offers now a far greater range of options to adjust its performance, e.g. lookahead depth, application of the strategic end stage with its own extended lookahead range of 2/3/4 weeks, aggressive vs. defensive behaviour and lots of other stuff. BTW this AI never cheats. I know Ubisoft said something in a recent interview that AIs just have to cheat for increased difficulty, this is absolutely not true, rather a cheap solution. AIs have a natural superior skill of counting things and if this is combined with strategic insight the AI can easily be a match for a master strategist. Well, that's what this project is about.

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 17, 2011 05:07 PM

Quote:
Both victory conditions will be available once one player reaches a superior position. Other triggers are open to discussion. Once the victory condition is enabled a special building will appear on the map, preferably in a random remote location. The first player who visits the victory building gets to choose whether it's going to be a Hall of Decision or Right of Conquest and receives a worthy bonus in the final stage.


I see some problems here:

1. How do you know a certain map is suitable for the sudden appearance of a special building? it can block paths, be unreachable, ruin the scenery etc? Maybe use an air balloon instead?

2. Who is going to model the buildings?, until now nobody has ever imported a new building model in the game and released it.

3. What defines a superior position?, this is very subjective. Likely the weaker player is not going to agree and wants to play out normally.
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Boptoa
Boptoa

Tavern Dweller
posted May 18, 2011 09:07 PM

Hi,

I've newly discovered this mod and it sounds very exciting and suitably epic. Though I'm an amateur, I'm working on a map right now that would greatly benefit from the mod Wizard Q is running.

I have a few questions for Quantomas/ suggestions for design

1. Can you alter border guards to NOT disappear once someone has passed through them? I.e. they remain there and will only let people pass if they have the key.

2. Your idea of applying different magical effects to terrain is fabulously awesome. While you're working on that, is there any kind of feasible way to replace terrain in game? (i.e. you've got a bunch of grass, but later in the campaign if the Inferno player gets a special artifact, something triggers and this grass gets replaced by a volcano of added fire effects and a tileset change to the Lava terrain) Is this possible? Having the ability to do this may be impossible, but in the hands of modders more experienced than I, I'm sure they could cook up some awesome stuff.

3. Is your intent to, at some point, combine the RPE mod with your own? You haven't expressly said this on the Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence website, but from conversations in your original thread announcing this mod, that seemed to be your goal.

4. Regardless of your answer to #3, is there a way to get RPE to run concurrent with Eternal Essence?

Non serious question #5 - Do you like Sonata Arctica?

Great work, and I'm very excited for your mod!.
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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 19, 2011 10:07 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 22:07, 19 May 2011.

Hall of Decision Map Design

For all who would like to participate in our small contest but rather would have their map not submitted publicly, I have provided an e-mail for encrypted submission. Details are here: Hall of Decision Map Design Contest. The new diary entry on the project website also explains a bit more about my plans for the project and provides information for people who have asked how to join the project.

---

@Boptoa
Welcome to our forum. Thanks.

Quote:
1. Can you alter border guards to NOT disappear once someone has passed through them? I.e. they remain there and will only let people pass if they have the key.

That's actually a neat idea. It's relatively straightforward to do, but it's probably best done after we have an extended interface for the custom game options, so that it can be turned on for a map if desired.

Quote:
2. Your idea of applying different magical effects to terrain is fabulously awesome. While you're working on that, is there any kind of feasible way to replace terrain in game? (i.e. you've got a bunch of grass, but later in the campaign if the Inferno player gets a special artifact, something triggers and this grass gets replaced by a volcano of added fire effects and a tileset change to the Lava terrain) Is this possible? Having the ability to do this may be impossible, but in the hands of modders more experienced than I, I'm sure they could cook up some awesome stuff.

That's exactly the plan, dynamically changing magic terrain.

Quote:
3. Is your intent to, at some point, combine the RPE mod with your own? You haven't expressly said this on the Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence website, but from conversations in your original thread announcing this mod, that seemed to be your goal.

Check the info in our general discussion thread. More info will be available with the next updates.

Quote:
Non serious question #5 - Do you like Sonata Arctica?

People will laugh. I hardly have the time to hear music these days, I also have no TV. Do you ask for a specific reason?


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Boptoa
Boptoa

Tavern Dweller
posted May 20, 2011 04:55 AM
Edited by Boptoa at 05:05, 20 May 2011.

Wizard Q, Thanks for you reply! Your Hall of Decision project looks pretty cool, but my map doesn't fit it's specifications. I'll let you know if I have an ideas.

Quote:
That's actually a neat idea. It's relatively straightforward to do, but it's probably best done after we have an extended interface for the custom game options, so that it can be turned on for a map if desired.


Very good, that change will be wonderful when I get to that point.

Quote:
People will laugh. I hardly have the time to hear music these days, I also have no TV. Do you ask for a specific reason?


There was no particular reason; I just happened to be listening to them when I made the post. I've wondered what kind of music do-it-yourself modding programmers such as yourself listen to while they do an insane amount of self inflicted work for the betterment of others. Apparently the answer is none. I'm not a TV person either, so nothing wrong there.

**EDIT: I found out RPE is somehow compatible with this newest release. Off to figure out how to make it work

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 20, 2011 02:32 PM

those new game modes sound interesting. I don't know why, but have the feelings that H5 isn't as fun to play against the AI that previous homm were
with a friend it is fun (especially the duels), but now, I have no one with who to play. is it possible to make a duel mode like elvin's map in which the AI would really be competent?


and what about extending possibilities for modders? adding new stuffs without replacing old ones? cities, abilities, spells...

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 20, 2011 04:31 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 16:42, 20 May 2011.

Quote:
those new game modes sound interesting. I don't know why, but have the feelings that H5 isn't as fun to play against the AI that previous homm were
with a friend it is fun (especially the duels), but now, I have no one with who to play. is it possible to make a duel mode like elvin's map in which the AI would really be competent?

Have you tried Elvin's duel map with 3.1b? What's the problem?

Balancing? Hero development? The victory conditions?
Quote:
and what about extending possibilities for modders? adding new stuffs without replacing old ones? cities, abilities, spells...

There is definitely tons of new stuff planned. Currently it's mostly a question how to go about it, what to tackle first. I think we will have RPE and NCF running soon. There are currently some inconsistencies how these mods interface with the game database which I would like to resolve and instead have a clean advanced modding interface. For example, just dropping a newly designed creature into a special EE folder instead of all this data folder mess as it is right now. This will give us truly unlimited creatures, skills and classes without these hacks.

I have also figured out how new screens can be made. I mean the big ones like the town screens. So everything is possible. With the magic terrain and magic effecting everything from castles, buildings, heroes and creatures, there will be a completely overhauled system how to research (and mod) magic.

@Magnomagus
In the next build I will have the .exe show message boxes if NCF creatures have something amiss. Currently it's checking for the validity of the creature model, the attack patterns and the link to the shared adventure map stats. I have one question though: from what are the NCF creatures accessed? From the .exe surely, and I would guess also from the editor. Are there other requirements?

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Boptoa
Boptoa

Tavern Dweller
posted May 20, 2011 04:47 PM
Edited by Boptoa at 16:52, 20 May 2011.

Wizard Q, since you seem relatively regular at looking at these forums presently I have several additional questions/ suggestions.

1. Can your AI for a specific computer be told to ONLY attack another specified computer? For example, could a "you can only attack the player to your left, and defend against the player to your right" style of game be implemented with functional and appropriate AI?

2. Is there a way that you could allow caravans (i.e., units NOT connected to a hero) to pass through border guards of the appropriate color (assuming permanent border guards as discussed before)? This would only occur is the player who owned the caravans had the key to the border guard on one of his heroes.

3. Is there a way that you could modify what happens when you have a hero move to and attack an opposing hero? I.e. bring up a dialog box with the options, say, to 1) Do Battle and 2) Propose Alliance. An alliance of course would team up players that were previously not on teams. (can this kind of thing be done?)

4. Is there a way that once a player has taken control of a creature dwelling on the world map, that he could subsequently upgrade it to the upgraded structure? (I.e. School of the Unseen Hand on the world map to School of the Black Heart)

Thanks for all you're doing Q!


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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 20, 2011 04:56 PM
Edited by Quantomas at 16:57, 20 May 2011.

Quote:
I have several additional questions/ suggestions.

1 + 3 + 4: sure. priorities matter here.
2: will happen automatically

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 20, 2011 05:17 PM
Edited by magnomagus at 17:22, 20 May 2011.

Quote:
@Magnomagus
In the next build I will have the .exe show message boxes if NCF creatures have something amiss. Currently it's checking for the validity of the creature model, the attack patterns and the link to the shared adventure map stats. I have one question though: from what are the NCF creatures accessed? From the .exe surely, and I would guess also from the editor. Are there other requirements?


I did some test myself and I also have new creatures appear as peasants at the moment but classes seem to work fine. I don't know what you did so far but with H5_RPE_Game.exe, NCF creatures are working while it has only one number changed. Nonetheless your methods are superior since you have the ingame RMG working. H5-RPE-Frame10.pak contains all files that are important to creatures. Two files that need to be specially mentioned are index.bin (for editor?) and types.xml (for game and editor), creatures need to be registered in those files. If you have the ability to edit the index.bin it would be great if could also register the new classes from RPE there so they will properly appear in the editor (something for later, not high priority now).

EDIT:

I think you can best give priority to creatures, classes (and artifacts?) for now, because there have never been made mods for spells, skills and towns. If you want to make those possible, you will also need to provide guidance how to do it.
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Boptoa
Boptoa

Tavern Dweller
posted May 20, 2011 06:12 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I have several additional questions/ suggestions.

1 + 3 + 4: sure. priorities matter here.
2: will happen automatically


Awesome. Obviously as a one man team it's more than understandable that these features may be well down the road. I'm just happy to know that they can be done. My map isn't even close to playable at present anyways. Thanks for the prompt response Q.

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 20, 2011 07:47 PM

Quote:
because there have never been made mods for spells, skills and towns.


there are new towns. if it was possible to create new effects for skills and spells, there would be such mods (especially spells. skills are harder since it requires to modify skillwheels too)

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 20, 2011 08:30 PM

I know where you are referring to but when I said new towns I meant towns that have a new 9th entry in the custom game menu and are build from new models and not recolored existing towns.
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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted May 20, 2011 08:32 PM

a new entry in the game menu would be enough

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magnomagus
magnomagus


Honorable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
posted May 20, 2011 08:39 PM

Maybe for you, but TSOD went for more. I'm just talking about the desired possibilities.

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Quantomas
Quantomas


Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
posted May 21, 2011 07:49 PM

Quote:
a new entry in the game menu would be enough

We can have proper new towns. Technically, I can import them into the game, if we can sort out how they are stored in the game database.

The root type is ArenaDesc and the town arenas (the interiors really) are stored in data.pak/Arenas/Town/.

Has anyone looked into this? You know, the internet is a big place. You can ask around, and probably find an artist who knows about the format. If luck will have it, we might actually find artists who might get interested to make a name for themselves by doing something for the project. After all, towns are displayed in a pretty preeminent position in the game.

I am sure, if we set our minds to it, we can find a way to have the H3 (swamp) Fortress or Elemental Conflux modelled in H5 as well.

@Cepheus
I know you are swamped with work. I now see that we have picked a very complicated piece of work with the eight skill enhancement. So it would be perfectly fine to have the interface without the detailed view from the town/hero tabs. Just the part you already showed us plus the perks display on the main hero screen. No urgency though.

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