|
| Thread: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Misc. Discussion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · NEXT» |
|
TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
|
posted May 29, 2011 12:02 PM |
|
Edited by TheBaron at 14:38, 29 May 2011.
|
Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Misc. Discussion
This is the Heroes 5.5 Eternal Essence general discussion thread
For a full background as well as other information on the project the website is located HERE
Please don't post bugs in this thread. These go here: Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Known issues.
To discuss the H5.5 design such as coding, mod direction and gameplay improvement, please head to Heroes 5.5 - Eternal Essence - Design.
There are additional bits of information available in the thread New (unofficial) patch where this project originated from.
This space is for general banter about the project. You can use it as a sounding-board for your ideas, general criticisms (not bugs), general compliments , random suggestions, or just any other funny cheese that has to do with the project.
|
|
TheBaron
Promising
Known Hero
dreamer of dreams
|
posted May 29, 2011 12:17 PM |
|
|
I want someone to make some nice screens for H5.5 EE, including a box cover or poster. I'd do it myself, but I'm not that good at art!
(I've been going to life-drawing classes, but I doubt anyone wants me to draw a naked guy as a load screen  )
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 01:23 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 13:51, 29 May 2011.
|
Hod and Roc end-games
Baron.
I think this should be a good spot to brainstorm what the Hall of decision or Right of Conquest can be. With all of the ideas I have seen about making a HoMM game a "better-game", I know we have some very good imaginations here. Here's your opportunity to contribute to the game that brought you here
These are several of Q's postings, please review them and share your ideas here in this thread.
The Contest
Quote:
HALL OF DECISION DESIGN CONTESTI would like to invite all talented map makers to a small contest to design the map for the forthcoming Hall of Decision endgame in Heroes V.
This can incorporate all kinds of ideas to offer a truly interesting challenge. I would also like to invite all veteran players who have an indepth understanding of the game to come up with a rough design sketch. If you don't feel you are good at map design but have the right ideas for the map and the gameplay on it, we can accept that and have other people work out and beautify the map itself.
Basics and general description
No towns, the strongest heroes of all players on the adventure map are teleported to a random location in the Hall of Decision at the beginning.
Five differently coloured fountains are placed on the map. The first player who visits all and reaches a specified exit building wins the game. The gameplay is not about heroes building up their experience or armies, but rather about using their existing skills and strength to succeed.
The map will run in a special mode, which limits the vision of the player to the first person perspective of the hero. The hero can not see around corners or through doors. I will also implement special logic for whatever the map designer requests (and is feasible) that goes way beyond scripts. That means, you don't need to write scripts, this task is handled directly here. If you wish adventure objects to work differently or serve special functions just write a note.
My original idea was to have a dungeon with tiny rooms each offering a special challenge and reward, like in the old dungeon master games. Additionally the colour of the fountains can confer considerable boni and can serve as a key to bypass strong garrisons without a fight or use special portals. Here is a very rough sample for all who do not know what I mean with small rooms and dungeons. Ideally these rooms will have proper doors to hide what is behind them.
But anything good is welcome, if you have better ideas than dungeons let your creativity reign free with a focus on the gameplay. The size of the map is your choice, but preferably not bigger than necessary to suit the intended playing style and underground.
From the Website
Quote:
NEW VICTORY CONDITIONS
One goal of our project is to improve the game with new victory conditions. There are already two nearly ready to be implemented soon: the Right of Conquest and Hall of Decision. Here is the first concept for the Hall of Decision and Right of Conquest victory conditions.
Both victory conditions will be available once one player reaches a superior position. Other triggers are open to discussion. Once the victory condition is enabled a special building will appear on the map, preferably in a random remote location. The first player who visits the victory building gets to choose whether it's going to be a Hall of Decision or Right of Conquest and receives a worthy bonus in the final stage.
RIGHT OF CONQUEST
The Right of Conquest is an arena death match. All heroes above a certain power threshold become combatants, with their army and artefacts transferred intact. The matches of the first round are determined by a draw. The looser drops out of the competition while the winner gets a bonus. After each round the winner will be presented with an arena match victory screen on which he or she can select a bonus, receive and exchange artefacts from the opponent's inventory and more. It will also be possible to use the bonus or a part of it to replenish some mana. It's open to discussion whether the player's resources and potential recruits in the towns can be factored in or whether the arena master can offer special rewards. Combat results are announced each round with the player given an option to view the fights. The last standing hero wins the game.
HALL OF DECISION
The Hall of Decision plays out on a tiny map, some underground cavern perhaps, no towns. Vision will be limited to the hero's view. That is the player can only observe what the hero can actually see. This allows for some neat dungeon design with different chambers and doors. A bit like the old dungeon master games. You don't know what's behind the door until you open it. There can be guards, rewards and portals.
The strongest hero of each player is teleported to the Hall of Decision once this victory condition is initiated. It's not simply a catch and kill game, but rather a subtle endeavor that will allow also for the underdog to win the day. Imagine five fountains of different color placed in the Hall of Decision. The hero who visits all fountains and reaches the exit first wins the game. Each fountain might confer considerable boni and its color might be a key, for example to pass through strong garrisons or portals.
More thoughts
Quote:
* 2 * The Hall of Decision is an important element to boost the gameplay. The contest to design a map for it is a first start, but I am not sure whether people are actually working on it. But it is definitely important enough that I will go to create a map myself, if we don't have a good contender at the time I have finished working on all other stuff for 3.2. It would be good if someone else could shoulder this task.
WE all need to shoulder this because that's how we will end up with something really good.
I've made a sort-of template for the HoD. It is a new version and much more detailed than the first map. Please download and imagine what you would like to see or happen when you've decided to "walk the hall" Post thoughts/ suggestions here and you can also HCM me for any discussion.
Quote:
* 3 * The Right of Conquest needs a smart designer with good ideas. As a first step we don't need a finished design, rather the brainstorming for it, what elements this gameplay mode should include. Things like a roster of combatants, an arena master, an artefact trader, how the combat rounds are scheduled, what boni the victors get in return. In each round the combatants suffer attrition and use mana, we need to find a smart way to factor it into how the minigame plays out. There are already bits of information and ideas in this thread and on the EE website. Technically, it can be quite extensive, it's a game designer job to create a powerful concept for this game mode. There is endless possibility from setting special rules to the arena master taking bribes to affect the schedule.
I have made a "starting" point for this as well. However, <IMO> while it looks good and is a start; it's like a car with a great paint job but no motor...IOW I need teamwork. I am a good idea man but mapping is more my turf. So c'mon creative minds and let's create a couple of great mini-games.
I'll give one insight about the HoD, don't go linear with the flow. I used the editor and without thinking, as a map-maker, only used what was "available" and my "flow" ended up being a straight line. Go here, get this, go there, get that = you win. This may help; "make the straight line and then plan how to alter."
Think of the games you like, such as, RPGs, Mysteries etc and dream-up your own plan/scheme for the unfolding experience of the player.
Good luck
|
|
Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 02:41 PM |
|
|
@TheBaron
Great work! I love to see people using their wits and own initiative. 
Here is a bit more on the Hall of Decision. The explanation from Markkur is very good, I suggest read it more than once and reflect on the possibilities.
Hall of Decision Map Design
We have now a proper dungeon sample map which shows details and what you can use in the map design. No limitation on what you can use though, this is intended as an inspiration.
Credits go to Markkur, master craftsman of the dwarven halls. Cheers!
Here is a bit more info. It shouldn't be a simple tunnel as in the sample.
At the very least it should be a grid, so that the players have a chance to run into each other but don't have to.
It doesn't need to be that regular. You can do awesome things with this. Even a regular dwarven wall labyrinth can be spiced up nicely. You can have passages blocked by debris or magma breaches, so that the player can see another player moving along further ahead but knows that he has to turn back and take another route to get there. You can also have additional irregular chambers at the fringe.
You can make the entire level look like a revered dwarven hall not touched for centuries. That the players are drawn in by the atmosphere and get the impression they have a rare opportunity to visit the refuge of kings long past.
Place the fountains strategically. It's a neat thing if you are standing just before a patch blocked with debris and can see the fountain ahead but know that you need to turn back first. Let your fantasy roll. Think of a long corridor lined with dwarven walls and all these large doors leading to the chambers (the small rooms) along the road. Some requiring keys, some not.
We can have hidden passages in these side chambers that open once inspected more closely. Maybe only players with the scouting skill can do that. Hidden passages that lead to a larger chamber with goodies, hidden for centuries, or possibly a shortcut to another fountain location. There is endless room for the smart map maker to explore.
You could create sort of a template for a hidden passage attached to a side chamber. What I mean with a template is, that it can appear in different locations to fulfil the same function. This will allow us to make the hidden passages random at map start, so that players who think they know a bit from the last play through will now stand simply before a blank rock.
We can have portals reset whenever a player touches a fountain. We can have tremors hit the dungeon every now and then with passages becoming unblocked and others blocked instead.
Regarding guards and garrisons, you can place them but don't worry about their strength. This will be set at map start based on the strength of the strongest player. If you like you can make notes, like for example this guard should be 0.5 the player's strength, that one 0.2 or 1.1, or if it is supposed to block a color keyed garrison maybe 5.0.
Now seeing a bit more how this can unfold, a tiny map will most likely not suffice, probably even small is too small. Think a bit of the hidden passages and templates, you can make the dungeon's grid wider, allowing for more place between the routes and space behind the small side chambers for other chambers and things to appear.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 03:19 PM |
|
|
Can someone please answer my comments on HOD,ROC from the other thread? My main point is: How do you trigger this victory condition in a sensible way? How is it going to be an important part of the game if in most cases players develop quite equally, meaning it is hardly ever going to trigger while it is a large effort to make. (considering you need a new building model).
Quote:
Both victory conditions will be available once one player reaches a superior position. Other triggers are open to discussion. Once the victory condition is enabled a special building will appear on the map, preferably in a random remote location. The first player who visits the victory building gets to choose whether it's going to be a Hall of Decision or Right of Conquest and receives a worthy bonus in the final stage.
1. How do you know a certain map is suitable for the sudden appearance of a special building? it can block paths, be unreachable, ruin the scenery etc? Maybe use an air balloon instead?
2. What defines a superior position?, this is very subjective. Likely the weaker player is not going to agree and wants to play out normally.
|
|
Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 03:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
1. How do you know a certain map is suitable for the sudden appearance of a special building? it can block paths, be unreachable, ruin the scenery etc? Maybe use an air balloon instead?
The AI holds an abundant amount of adventure map tile data with all kinds of passability, accessibility and terrain information. No problem there.
Quote:
2. What defines a superior position?, this is very subjective. Likely the weaker player is not going to agree and wants to play out normally.
I assume you never have played chess. There is a discipline called analysis that proves whether a current situation is won by one player in all possible scenarios unless he makes mistakes. The AI end stage will track that as well. A superior position is defined as one player having all the means to win the game whatever other players do. There is some margin of error, to mitigate that we will have an additional option slider that sets a minimum game day that has to be passed before it can appear.
I didn't answer before because I felt these questions were premature, that they would be answered in due course by the design as it evolves. Have a bit of patience with me, and faith, the workload is big. There is a friendly reminder in the dev diary that I cannot always answer everything.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 04:40 PM |
|
|
I'm generally pro the concept of minigames, but I think there should be more than just two minigames. Perhaps a framework could be created that allows everyone to create their own minigames in the map editor, the minigames can be triggered when visiting a certain building. The AI can be able to autogenerate roughly equal heroes into a minigame. I just don't like the idea of the AI dropping a building somewhere on the map. I prefer to have the creative talent of a map editor to place such a special building in artistic environment like a hill top with clouds around it or a beautiful underground lake.
Quote:
I assume you never have played chess. There is a discipline called analysis that proves whether a current situation is won by one player in all possible scenarios unless he makes mistakes. The AI end stage will track that as well. A superior position is defined as one player having all the means to win the game whatever other players do. There is some margin of error, to mitigate that we will have an additional option slider that sets a minimum game day that has to be passed before it can appear.
I was actually a good chess player once, but the game started to bore me, probably because there are much less factors involved in comparison with strategy games. I don't believe a regular computer can calculate all those possibilities in a reasonable amount of time. You are aware a chess endgame database already takes many gigs for only the last few turns? Please read the following story from the humilitating defeat thread and tell me how on earth your AI is going to anticipate these kind of strategies?:
Quote:
Hi, iīm back to the forums and i find this thread wonderful so i must share my most humiliating defeat with you.
Few months ago I fought against a friend (a girl, btw) via LAN and I throught it would be an easy victory. For almost entire game, Spy guild showed that my Wyngaal was a better hero (greater army) than her Ylthin. When the battle came, I was quite surprised - her army was composed of a huge Dryad stack, huge Battle Dancer stack and 5 stacks of Pristine Unicorns. I just couldnīt understand. A while later, I realized her strategy, but it was too late for me. My Master Hunters targeted her Dryads and would have slaughtered them if not for Last Stand. Tgen, when my Elder Druids attacked her Dancers, I realized what she was going to do. In her first move, Ylthin cast Regeneration on her Dryads, thus all 5 Pristines got Regeneration as well. She followed with Mass Haste and other mass spells. Then she used Divine Vengeance to blow away my Master Hunters and Elder Druids. Her Unicorns just survived first hit due to Last Stand and regenerated, so they could survive another strike. And when i finally managed to kill almost all Unicorn stacks by concentrating attacks on them, Ylthin just cast Resurrection to bring them all back. I realized my only chance to beat her was to wait till she runs out of Mana. Sadly, she had around 20 Knowledge (level 20, but had many artifacts). In the end, I had to flee.
A day later I retaliated with my secondaty hero (Talanar) and tore Ylthin apart, cause she had nearly no Mana left. I throught I would win after all. When enemy secondary Dirael appeared with great army (composed of all tiers), I realized how arrogant I was...
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 05:19 PM |
|
|
Yes, chess lacks the elements of surprise and discovery and the random elements this implies that make strategy games great.
Don't worry about how much computations the AI can do. Let's assume a hero can visit something like 15 adventure map objects a turn. A full permutation over it is 15 faculty. In turn two it becomes 15 * 15 possibilities to start with to do all permutations for the secnd turn and in turn three 15 * 15 * 15. That is were the stock AI capped its computations, because it can do no more, and it still became very slow in wide open areas. The EE AI does the computation for full seven lookahead days. I leave the maths to you how many possibilities this really includes, technically every adventure map object that is in a hero's seven day travel range, not to forget to visit towns, portals, dwellings and so on in any possible order.
The story you shared is great. Once the full algebraic factorization is done, the AI will come up with strategies like this on its own. I believe we will be surprised what the computer will throw at us, things we never witnessed before.
Regarding minigames, the concepts that are already proposed on the EE website include interlinked multiple floors with customizable rules based on the magic terrain. This will give you all you want, and then some. Just don't expect me to explain all this in detail, these features will come along for you to see and play with in due course.
If you really would like to discourage me from doing the Hall of Decision you need much more valid points. I don't mind you raising the issues you mentioned, they can all be addressed.
[edit]
Of course we can have a map maker create an environment for the victory building that is placed on the map along with it.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 06:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Don't worry about how much computations the AI can do. Let's assume a hero can visit something like 15 adventure map objects a turn. A full permutation over it is 15 faculty. In turn two it becomes 15 * 15 possibilities to start with to do all permutations for the secnd turn and in turn three 15 * 15 * 15. That is were the stock AI capped its computations, because it can do no more, and it still became very slow in wide open areas. The EE AI does the computation for full seven lookahead days. I leave the maths to you how many possibilities this really includes, technically every adventure map object that is in a hero's seven day travel range, not to forget to visit towns, portals, dwellings and so on in any possible order.
I have no doubts about the AI adventure map skills, it is the combat AI I was worried about. But don't understand me wrong, I think you are an excellent programmer and to me the AI is already good enough as it is with some simple cheating added.
Quote:
The story you shared is great. Once the full algebraic factorization is done, the AI will come up with strategies like this on its own. I believe we will be surprised what the computer will throw at us, things we never witnessed before.
I guess I will just have to see this before I believe it.
Quote:
If you really would like to discourage me from doing the Hall of Decision you need much more valid points. I don't mind you raising the issues you mentioned, they can all be addressed.
I don't want to discourage you, but I was just concerned the current ROC\HOD concept is going to be a lot of extra work that may become only a very minor part of the game in it's current design. First the victory condition needs to be activated (not everyone will like it), then the selection of players who like it need to develop unequally for it to trigger. Since both your AI and nowadays players are very good (they own the game for many years) what are the chances this will happen? 10-20%?. (No need to answer this question of course, I'm just thinking out loud)
____________
MMH5.5 Downloads | MMH5.5 Translations | MMH5.5 FAQ
|
|
Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 07:18 PM |
|
|
Quote:
... need to develop unequally for it to trigger. Since both your AI and nowadays players are very good (they own the game for many years) what are the chances this will happen? 10-20%?. (No need to answer this question of course, I'm just thinking out loud)
100% (discount the one case where you win outright)
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted May 29, 2011 08:59 PM |
|
|
when it comes to adding a new town, I suggest either starting with conflux or oblivion, I have the feeling it might be less complicated.
for the oblivion town (and in general) it would be good to modify the ability "agility" so that it works on flying unit as well.
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted May 30, 2011 04:19 PM |
|
Edited by markkur at 16:29, 30 May 2011.
|
HoD
[quote}Now seeing a bit more how this can unfold, a tiny map will most likely not suffice, probably even small is too small. Think a bit of the hidden passages and templates, you can make the dungeon's grid wider, allowing for more place between the routes and space behind the small side chambers for other chambers and things to appear.
I was just going to make this recommendation;
"Use a "Medium" 2-level map-size for creating your quest"
Many here will know this while others may not but the "Crag's are tempermental and not easy to use in very tight places. They (dungeon & dwarven-crags) work to a three-cell brush and if a mapper is trying to get down to single cell work" (as I did)... well you can see the clash. Also centering becomes a bigger pain.
@ Q
For those that are very creative, want to help but don't know the editor well, I think this is too important and I don't want this limitation for someone trying to "Create The Quest". I will make another inspiration/template map but with greater chamber variety and in "normal-map-size"....today. Look for it later this afternoon for upload.
Edit= "Medium". At first I thought about Small but I doubt it would give enough of the needed wiggle-room. Also the 2nd level may not be needed but thought to have it, just in case.
|
|
Quantomas
Responsible
Famous Hero
AI Wizard
|
|
posted May 31, 2011 12:36 PM |
|
|
Quote:
I will make another inspiration/template map but with greater chamber variety and in "normal-map-size"....today. Look for it later this afternoon for upload.
That's the team spirit!
Take all the time you need. It doesn't need to be done today, it's more important that it is good.
On my part I am trying to inspire a bit more enthusiasm with the surprises included in 3.1c (due in the next days).
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted May 31, 2011 04:08 PM |
|
|
Quote:
On my part I am trying to inspire a bit more enthusiasm with the surprises included in 3.1c (due in the next days).
I don't think you could do better in that department. I'm guessing here but I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, the hesitation encountered "at times" is the unfortunate legacy of vanilla H5; "clashes of mods", "user-unfriendly editor" and a host of "gaming/mapping bugs solved with buggy patches". That previous experience has spread a lot of unwanted caution.
With that said; there are several members here that I "know of", that I believe would be a great asset to the project. I hope that they too will see past the "history" and get into the flow, discuss/solve problems/etc. and help make the game they wanted. I think another big issue in the mix; is "time" and that's one of timing.
@All
About the larger inspiration map (that I'm still working on); This time with the new "start-map", it occurs to me to be more helpful. So, I will share my general thoughts about the beginning and hope that is a spring-board for your creativity, instead of possibly wasting time trying to figure out what I was doing.
One other thing I should clarify, don't be shy, if you've a great "Flow", need help with some modifications to the map for a better "backdrop" for "your ideas/innovations", then please...just ask. You don't have to do the square-peg/round-hole bit.
Tip: Use a notepad to plot your flow, get it right and then take it to the map.
____________
"Do your own research"
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 02:06 AM |
|
Edited by Fauch at 02:49, 01 Jun 2011.
|
I'm wondering, if we add a new town, what would be the procedure to follow to add new creatures, new heroes, etc... ?
for example, it seems that NCF creatures must be in the neutrals folder and named "creature_xxx"
there are actually 2 mother files that are crucial for creatures :
-GameMechanics/Creature/Creatures/FactionName/Creature.xdb
-MapObjects/_(AdvMapObjectLink)/Monsters/FactionName/Creature.xdb
other files aren't a problem.
for a hero, I suppose the mother files are the same.
and when it comes to hero classes for example, is it enough to fill all the required xdb fields with the class name, and the link will be made automatically, or would the game not recognize a new class name?
another idea. a new skill to enhance the efficiency of spellcasting creatures. spell damage would be increased by 10/20/30% depending on mastery. perks could add an additional level of mastery for each spell, or decrease the amount of initiative used to cast a spell for example.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 09:05 AM |
|
|
Quote:
another idea. a new skill to enhance the efficiency of spellcasting creatures. spell damage would be increased by 10/20/30% depending on mastery. perks could add an additional level of mastery for each spell, or decrease the amount of initiative used to cast a spell for example.
Great idea!, but in case of most factions not worth using a whole skill slot. A few perks seem enough to me. the creature spellpower formula can also use a revision. Too strong early and too weak later.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 12:49 PM |
|
|
true, some perks could be enough, but where to put them? under magic schools? under sorcery?
you take dungeon case, they are likely to pick destro, but matriarches have no destro spells.
in H4, creatures could also learn mass spells, but I'm not sure if it would be a too big bonus? still, most of them wouldn't have enough mana to cast more than one.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 02:55 PM |
|
|
|
Sorcery and Enlightment have a lot of uninspired +2 Spellpower, +2 Knowledge skills, those can be replaced if the branches are full. In the RPE skillsystem there are still 2 open spaces for every skill, new icons are going to be the main problem. I also would like to see an ultimate level for every skill and not just for racials. I'm generally against mass spells for creatures to maintain the unique role of the hero.
|
|
Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 03:21 PM |
|
|
|
could you explain the procedure to add new hero classes? that would already be one step in adding new towns.
|
|
magnomagus
Admirable
Legendary Hero
modding wizard
|
|
posted June 01, 2011 04:38 PM |
|
|
| |
|
|
