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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime
Thread: Right to Self Defense, Gun Ownership, and Deterence of Crime This thread is 55 pages long: 1 10 20 30 ... 35 36 37 38 39 ... 40 50 55 · «PREV / NEXT»
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted January 23, 2013 12:11 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 12:13, 23 Jan 2013.

Quote:
Because they were disarmed by their own governments and thus unable to resist Hitler's Einsatzgruppen, Stalin's NKVD and starvation brigades and the gentle ways of the rest of the Wehrmacht and the Red Army when it comes to "treatment of non-combatants in conquered territories," at least 30 million civilians were murdered in those four countries from 1929 to 1945.


What complete and utter bollocks. Polish citizens were mass-murdered not because of a lack of handgun, but because an organized army occupied their territory and kept grabbing them off their appartments at night or off the streets and throwing them to cattle-trucks to gas them away in death camps. And when they finally got enough arms to start Warsaw Uprising, they couldn't hold themselves with their guns against tanks and airplanes, and as a result, Warsaw was burned to the ground. The author of this article has absolutely no clue what he's writing about. You can gun down a soldier as a civilian, but next day, 20 come and murder you and everyone around you, then burn the place down.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 23, 2013 03:51 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 16:02, 23 Jan 2013.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/23/justice/new-mexico-shooting/?hpt=us_c1

Quote:

(CNN) -- The chilling acts the 15-year-old boy is accused of defy imagination:
Pumping his mother, brother and two younger sisters with bullets.
Gunning down his dad when he returned home.
Texting a picture of his lifeless mother to his 12-year-old girlfriend.

Nehemiah Griego has been charged in connection with the shooting deaths of his family.
Plotting to kill strangers outside a supermarket.
But, family members say, Nehemiah Griego is no monster. They can't fathom what could have gone so terribly wrong.
"Whether it was a mental breakdown or some deeper undiagnosed psychological issue, we can't be sure yet," his uncle, former New Mexico state Sen. Eric Griego, said.
"What we do know is that none of us, even in our wildest nightmare, could have imagined that he could do something like this."
The family statement, sent to CNN affiliate KOAT, describes the boy as a gifted athlete and musician who was active in youth services at church.

It said the teen accompanied his father on mission trips to Mexico and wanted to continue a long family history of military service by becoming a soldier.

It's a far different picture of the teen than the one authorities paint.
Sheriff: Teen planned shootings for at least a week
Bernalillo County Sheriff Dan Houston said Griego was "involved heavily" with violent video games, and that he "was quite excited as he got the opportunity to discuss that with our investigators."
He said the boy planned the shootings for at least a week. That he told investigators he was frustrated with his mother. That he contemplated killing his girlfriend's parents. That he hoped to continue his killing spree at a Walmart "with mass destruction" and die in a shootout with police.
The teen's demeanor, as he shared all this, was "stern, very unemotional," Houston said.
Now, Griego will stand trial as an adult in the weekend killings, prosecutors announced.
He was arrested Saturday night, after deputies found the bodies of his mother, father, brother and two of his sisters in their home on the outskirts of Albuquerque.

Opinion: How a boy becomes a killer

The tragedy unfolds
The tragedy unfolded early Saturday morning, when Griego carried a .22-caliber rifle to where his mother and 9-year-old brother slept side by side, an arrest affidavit said.
The teen fatally shot his mother, waking his younger brother Zephania in the process.
When Griego told Zephania that their mother was dead, the younger boy did not believe him, the document stated.
"So Nehemiah picked up his mother's head to show his brother her bloody face," the affidavit said. "Nehemiah stated his brother became upset, so he shot his brother in the head with the same rifle used to kill his mother."
After that, police said, "Nehemiah stated he lost his sense of conscience."

The boy went on to kill his sisters, 5-year-old Jael and 2-year-old Angelina, before his father Greg came home from a volunteer graveyard shift at a homeless shelter.

Authorities believe the father, a former pastor at an Albuquerque church and a chaplain to the city's fire department, was the last to be gunned down in the home.
'Beyond any human reasoning'
Most of the victims were shot with the .22, but a semiautomatic AR-15 rifle was also used in the killings, sheriff's Lt. Sid Covington said. Authorities said the weapons appear to have been purchased legally.
The Griegos had five other, grown children, none of whom lived at home, Covington said.
After the slayings, Griego "spent the majority of the day with his girlfriend," Houston said.
He even sent his girlfriend a picture of his slain mother, Houston said.

Authorities arrested the teen after he attended his family's church with his girlfriend, and a staff member called deputies.
Griego was scheduled to appear in court Tuesday to face two counts of murder and three counts of child abuse resulting in death, but the hearing was waived, KOAT reported.
The affiliate said Griego's case will go to a grand jury within 10 days.
"This is beyond any human reasoning or understanding at this time," the sheriff said.



Why do such tragedies happen nearly every week in the US?
People gunned down in a theater, children killed in a school, boy kills his own family,Collage shoot out...
I have the feeling that the US is a horrible place to live in.

Explain this Elodin? Americans are mostly christian. Why does this happen?
The story I posted is a very bad tragedy and the boy's father was a Priest. Care to explain`?
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Corribus
Corribus

Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
posted January 23, 2013 04:20 PM

Quote:
Americans are mostly christian. Why does this happen?

Not enough guns?

EDIT: Oh yeah, forgot the "".

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted January 23, 2013 06:08 PM
Edited by angelito at 18:09, 23 Jan 2013.

Quote:
Americans are mostly christian. Why does this happen?


You haven't read the typical Elodin-explanation yet?

--> "Everone who commits a crime or acts against the bible HAS NEVER BEEN A CHRISTIAN in his life".

The typical win-win phrase which was already used in the middle ages when hunting witches and non christians was daily stuff.

Like for example:
"God will protect all of his followers, if they are true believers, true christians". Now shoot someone in the head. If he survives, he is a good christian, God protected him. If he dies, he was a disbeliever.


But comparing the Hitler regime with the today's death rate in the states shows how low someone can sink if he runs out of arguments.

Next time he probaly searches for a little village in Europe with only 4 inhabitants where the son shot his parents and himself afterwards, so he can show this "country" has a death rate of 75%...
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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted January 23, 2013 06:30 PM

I've always thought that without the influence of religion, Elodin would have been a rocket scientist or something like that. It corrupts him.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 23, 2013 06:45 PM

Quote:
I've always thought that without the influence of religion, Elodin would have been a rocket scientist or something like that. It corrupts him.


What a strange idea. How did you come up with that?

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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted January 23, 2013 06:45 PM

Ah lovely, the liberals have shown themselves to once again have no rational arguments and have chosen to resort to personal attacks and religion bashing.
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Seraphim
Seraphim


Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
posted January 23, 2013 07:04 PM
Edited by Seraphim at 19:13, 23 Jan 2013.

Quote:
Ah lovely, the liberals have shown themselves to once again have no rational arguments and have chosen to resort to personal attacks and religion bashing.


The tragedy I linked says otherwise. If america had some sane gun laws, people would not be having semi-automatic rifles for "Home" defense.

The kid used the "Family's" guns and masacred everybody. He even planned to go on a killing spree.

If there was gun control and reasonable mental research, that mass murderer would have been locked away. Dont you agree Eldoin?

Also, his dad was a priest. Sure, somehow, christian "Philopsophy" is compatible with home owned AR-15 rifle. But thats not even something I care. What really disturbs me is how these people kept guns unguarded so that little 15 year old psycho could get his hand to.

BTW an AR-15 rifle looks like this:


I ask again, who the hell needs a rifle for home defense?
Why are semi automatic pistols allowed?
Both are designed to be extremely efficient in "KIlling".
I dont get that.
A shotgun is not as easily sheathed when taken into public and at least does better then guns or rifles.
Care to explain?
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 23, 2013 07:11 PM

Quote:
Quote:
I've always thought that without the influence of religion, Elodin would have been a rocket scientist or something like that. It corrupts him.


What a strange idea. How did you come up with that?


Elodin has on a number of occasion shown high intelligence. In any case, it's partly our own fault, because we pretty much already know what Elodin is going to reply. Yet we keep on asking for lunacy such as linking murder rates during civilian persecutions with gun control or lack thereof.

Even after such a far out reply, we still keep asking for more, by "countering" his arguments.

Maybe it's us who should learn not to discuss to change someones opinions, but to learn about others?
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted January 23, 2013 07:17 PM

Quote:
Ah lovely, the liberals have shown themselves to once again have no rational arguments and have chosen to resort to personal attacks and religion bashing.
Your "arguments" which are nothing but a mockery of reason, logic and everything related have been disproved so many times with facts, statistics and real logic, reason, etc. that any person who doesn't have an impenetrable self-sustaining barrier above his brain would've at least stopped arguing in public. Nevertheless, you keep displaying both astonishing ignorance and inability to participate in a discussion related to certain matters (usually religion, politics, guns). "Arguing" with you is like arguing with a radio stuck on the same frequency and playing the same record for its entire lifetime. So why should anyone care? Stop posting stuff that insults the intelligence of the other people and they in turn will stop "personally attacking" you.

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artu
artu


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
posted January 23, 2013 07:30 PM

Quote:
Elodin has on a number of occasion shown high intelligence.


Well, I wouldn't like to get personal on discussions such as this (the gun stuff) or insult anyone so let me only say I'll believe it when I see it. Up until now, all I've seen is arguments which cant even convince a ten year-old, binary logic dividing the world into conservative good folk and loony liberals, and sentences such as "Christians never killed anyone because the Bible forbids to kill." If someone's reasoning is as blunt as that I highly doubt it will be sharper someplace else.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted January 23, 2013 08:32 PM

What we have an issue with, Forfy, is that you cannot have a discussion with a person that counters inconvenient questions with a "oh, I see, you're another loony liberal" auto-defense sentence, without ever acknowledging, that a lot of people around the world are not aware of US political system, aren't a part of it, don't care for it, and calling them "liberal" or "conservative" is as accurate as calling a Chinese man the so called "n-word". It just doesn't make sense.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


Legendary Hero
Manifest
posted January 23, 2013 09:09 PM

Adding a new Gun law would result in a 20-30 year greyer zone, where the old guns are still in circulation, and they will be until the supply of them stops up.
It would not solve the social problems causing the massacres in the first place either.
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OhforfSake
OhforfSake


Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
posted January 23, 2013 09:40 PM

Quote:
What we have an issue with, Forfy, is that you cannot have a discussion with [...]


Yet you guys keep trying. You acknowledge the wall in front of you, but you keep on banging your head on it. When you always get the same response, what's the point of continuing the discussion?

I mean, I agree with your points about gun possession in this thread, at least for the most part as I haven't read everything, but when it comes to absurdities, I lose sight of purpose of keeping on "countering" arguments. Just look at the next step, it was name calling. I think it's obvious where this is heading towards, and I won't be a part of it, so this will be my final contribution. If you wish to continue writing with me on this subject, I'll have to proceed over HCM's.
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Vindicator
Vindicator


Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
posted January 23, 2013 10:04 PM

Quote:
Ah lovely, the liberals have shown themselves to once again have no rational arguments and have chosen to resort to personal attacks and religion bashing.


Could you please reply to my sources, which contradict the quotes you offered? I would really appreciate it.
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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted January 23, 2013 10:07 PM

If I have a gun and break into your house and you have no gun you are at my mercy. That is a FACT. Denying people the right to properly defend themselves is immoral.


Clicky

Quote:

Quote:

Nothing is easier than to disarm peaceful, law-abiding people -- and nothing is harder than to disarm people who are neither.



The gun control controversy is only the latest of many issues to be debated almost solely in terms of fixed preconceptions, with little or no examination of hard facts.

Media discussions of gun control are dominated by two factors: the National Rifle Association and the Second Amendment. But the over-riding factual question is whether gun control laws actually reduce gun crimes in general or murder rates in particular.

If, as gun control advocates claim, gun control laws really do control guns and save lives, there is nothing to prevent repealing the Second Amendment, any more than there was anything to prevent repealing the Eighteenth Amendment that created Prohibition.

But, if the hard facts show that gun control laws do not actually control guns, but instead lead to more armed robberies and higher murder rates after law-abiding citizens are disarmed, then gun control laws would be a bad idea, even if there were no Second Amendment and no National Rifle Association.

Quote:

Virtually all gun control advocates say that 30 bullets in a magazine is far too many for self-defense or hunting -- even if they have never gone hunting and never had to defend themselves with a gun.



The central issue boils down to the question: What are the facts? Yet there are many zealots who seem utterly unconcerned about facts or about their own lack of knowledge of facts.

There are people who have never fired a shot in their life who do not hesitate to declare how many bullets should be the limit to put into a firearm's clip or magazine. Some say ten bullets but New York state's recent gun control law specifies seven.


Virtually all gun control advocates say that 30 bullets in a magazine is far too many for self-defense or hunting -- even if they have never gone hunting and never had to defend themselves with a gun. This uninformed and self-righteous dogmatism is what makes the gun control debate so futile and so polarizing.


Anyone who faces three home invaders, jeopardizing himself or his family, might find 30 bullets barely adequate. After all, not every bullet hits, even at close range, and not every hit incapacitates. You can get killed by a wounded man.


These plain life-and-death realities have been ignored for years by people who go ballistic when they hear about how many shots were fired by the police in some encounter with a criminal. As someone who once taught pistol shooting in the Marine Corps, I am not the least bit surprised by the number of shots fired. I have seen people miss a stationary target at close range, even in the safety and calm of a pistol range.

We cannot expect everybody to know that. But we can expect them to know that they don't know -- and to stop spouting off about life-and-death issues when they don't have the facts.

The central question as to whether gun control laws save lives or cost lives has generated many factual studies over the years. But these studies have been like the proverbial tree that falls in an empty forest, and has been heard by no one -- certainly not by zealots who have made up their minds and don't want to be confused by the facts.


Most factual studies show no reduction in gun crimes, including murder, under gun control laws. A significant number of studies show higher rates of murder and other gun crimes under gun control laws.


How can this be? It seems obvious to some gun control zealots that, if no one had guns, there would be fewer armed robberies and fewer people shot to death.


But nothing is easier than to disarm peaceful, law-abiding people. And nothing is harder than to disarm people who are neither -- especially in a country with hundreds of millions of guns already out there, that are not going to rust away for centuries.


When it was legal to buy a shotgun in London in the middle of the 20th century, there were very few armed robberies there. But, after British gun control zealots managed over the years to disarm virtually the entire law-abiding population, armed robberies became literally a hundred times more common. And murder rates rose.

One can cherry-pick the factual studies, or cite some studies that have subsequently been discredited, but the great bulk of the studies show that gun control laws do not in fact control guns. On net balance, they do not save lives but cost lives.


Gun control laws allow some people to vent their emotions, politicians to grandstand and self-righteous people to "make a statement" -- but all at the cost of other people's lives.



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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
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Free Thinker
posted January 23, 2013 10:17 PM

There is no correlation between gun ownership and commisssion of crime. Anyone who thinks guns commit crimes or cause crimes to be committed would be irrational in my book.

Clicky

Quote:

I've just learned that Washington, D.C.'s petition for a rehearing of the Parker case in the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit was denied today. This is good news. Readers will recall in this case that the D.C. Circuit overturned the decades-long ban on gun ownership in the nation's capitol on Second Amendment grounds.

However, as my colleague Peter Ferrara explained in his National Review Online article following the initial decision in March, it looks very likely that the United States Supreme Court will take the case on appeal. When it does so - beyond seriously considering the clear original intent of the Second Amendment to protect an individual's right to armed self-defense - the justices of the U.S. Supreme Court would be wise to take into account the findings of a recent study out of Harvard.


The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:

b]Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not.
The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population).

For example, Norway has the highest rate of gun ownership in Western Europe, yet possesses the lowest murder rate. In contrast, Holland's murder rate is nearly the worst, despite having the lowest gun ownership rate in Western Europe. Sweden and Denmark are two more examples of nations with high murder rates but few guns. As the study's authors write in the report:

   If the mantra "more guns equal more death and fewer guns equal less death" were true, broad cross-national comparisons should show that nations with higher gun ownership per capita consistently have more death. b]Nations with higher gun ownership rates, however, do not have higher murder or suicide rates than those with lower gun ownership. Indeed many high gun ownership nations have much lower murder rates. (p. 661)


Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.


The important thing to keep in mind is not the rate of deaths by gun - a statistic that anti-gun advocates are quick to recite - but the overall murder rate, regardless of means. The criminologists explain:

   [P]er capita murder overall is only half as frequent in the United States as in several other nations where gun murder is rarer, but murder by strangling, stabbing, or beating is much more frequent. (p. 663 - emphases in original)

It is important to note here that Profs. Kates and Mauser are not pro-gun zealots. In fact, they go out of their way to stress that their study neither proves that gun control causes higher murder rates nor that increased gun ownership necessarily leads to lower murder rates. (Though, in my view, Prof. John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime does indeed prove the latter.) But what is clear, and what they do say, is that gun control is ineffectual at preventing murder, and apparently counterproductive.

Not only is the D.C. gun ban ill-conceived on constitutional grounds, it fails to live up to its purpose. If the astronomical murder rate in the nation's capitol, in comparison to cities where gun ownership is permitted, didn't already make that fact clear, this study out of Harvard should.


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Fauch
Fauch


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posted January 23, 2013 10:22 PM
Edited by Fauch at 22:31, 23 Jan 2013.

what elodin said about borders is interesting though. a country may have a high murder rate, but many of the murderers come from the outside.

I'm sceptical about gun control too, because it's actually just keeping guns out of some hands right? it's not like they are going to close weapons factory and disassemble existing guns.

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


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posted January 23, 2013 10:49 PM

Ok, just equal gun control with driving license. The same points hold true. Illegal invaders may not have one, steal a car and just wreak havoc. Does that mean it makes sense to bury the idea of a driving license?

For the rest of the arguments - I mean, what the hell are you discussing? I mean, sure TEXAS is a border state, but, err, Wisconsin? New York? Alaska?

Also, with Texas being so ... realistic about the poor situation of law-abiding Texans versus the onslaught of a combined Marxist government and alien invaders - shouldn't Texas be able to do a bit more here? Invest heavily into police and private security? Fund or subsidize private weapon buys? Deploy vigilante brigades along the border and send the darn aliens to hell? I mean, what kind of gutless Texans are you?

Chrissakes, that had to be said.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


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Retired Hero
posted January 24, 2013 12:47 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 00:50, 24 Jan 2013.

Quote:
If I have a gun and break into your house and you have no gun you are at my mercy. That is a FACT. Denying people the right to properly defend themselves is immoral.


How about a bigger FACT: If I sneak up on you while you are asleep, no amounts of tanks and miniguns in your cabinet will prevent me from breaking your neck.

Now, use that intelligence of yours and ask yourself a perfectly valid question: knowing the owner has a gun (in a gun-totting state, everybody has a gun), do you just storm his front door like a total loon? Or perhaps, if you're THAT desperate to rob him, you wait until he's at work, in another city, or even simply asleep to do your dirty job?

I don't get why is this scenario (the most probable one) so hard for you to understand. Criminals storming your place, what is this, a C-class Hollywood movie?
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