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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: Bored of the beta: a mini-review
Thread: Bored of the beta: a mini-review This thread is 9 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 09, 2011 12:37 AM

Yeah, I can't believe that they are only allowing us to test one multiplayer map.

I am bored too and have pretty much stopped playing it now.

I think that they should have really released the editor for testing, aswell as a true multiplayer with duels for some real balance testing between players.
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body and
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Crayfish
Crayfish


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2011 12:40 AM

Quote:
Some times I wonder if you people forget that we still have one thing that really needs to be tested more and is currently stupidly impossible to test.

I am speaking about the whole blood/tears thing!

On paper at the very least, those skills do make might/magic heroes more unique and possibly less cookie cutter. Of course, right now it's pretty much impossible to get to 1,000 tears or blood, or both (imagine that).

But yeah anyways there you go, the whole system of tears/blood has the possibility of correcting all that 'heroes are kind of the same...' problem.


Blood/tears only really impacts the faction skill so far as I know? Might be wrong, haven't been able to test it as mentioned. Sure it's a nice touch, but it isn't the answer to the skill tree problem. Now if blood and tears opened up different skill trees, that'd be nice.

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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2011 12:48 AM

Quote:

Blood/tears only really impacts the faction skill so far as I know? Might be wrong, haven't been able to test it as mentioned. Sure it's a nice touch, but it isn't the answer to the skill tree problem. Now if blood and tears opened up different skill trees, that'd be nice.


Well that's what I mean, unless I am reading you incorrectly. While it doesn't open up a new skill tree it does give you new abilities that are different based on faction and hero choice and ultimately tears/blood choice.

Looking at the Necropolis Might hero, I forget whether it is blood or tears, but it gives him or her the passive ability to 'heal' your entire army with every hit. I can see a build that focuses solely on maximizing that skill (pressing attack + whatever else). It would also change play style.

But yeah... tears/blood gain is too small at the moment to even get there =(
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted July 09, 2011 12:55 AM

The reputation alone won't make the heroes very different, given that each has access to some 60% of the skills/spells available to the other class. Only the third tier of spells is not available for the Might heroes and respectively the third tier of Might abilities are not in the Magic hero's list. When I first read about the system, I thought that there will be skills accessible only for certain factions and even certain faction (or at least "adapted" versions of the skills available to all) in addition to the generally available ones but it turned out that it's not like that at all.

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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2011 01:10 AM

Quote:
The reputation alone won't make the heroes very different, given that each has access to some 60% of the skills/spells available to the other class. Only the third tier of spells is not available for the Might heroes and respectively the third tier of Might abilities are not in the Magic hero's list. When I first read about the system, I thought that there will be skills accessible only for certain factions and even certain faction (or at least "adapted" versions of the skills available to all) in addition to the generally available ones but it turned out that it's not like that at all.


I suppose we're looking for different things in the end.

Depending on how the balance is for the tears/blood, I feel that it would make or break the feeling of uniqueness and diversity. Some of those abilities would make me at least try out completely different skill sets and unit focus too.

I mean looking at the Inferno Blood Might hero, wouldn't you want to try a build that solely focuses on pumping fortune as high as possible? That would force you to pick different stats from early to mid to late game. But maybe that's not enough for you =(
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Crayfish
Crayfish


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2011 01:18 AM
Edited by Crayfish at 01:22, 09 Jul 2011.

Quote:
Depending on how the balance is for the tears/blood, I feel that it would make or break the feeling of uniqueness and diversity. Some of those abilities would make me at least try out completely different skill sets and unit focus too.

I mean looking at the Inferno Blood Might hero, wouldn't you want to try a build that solely focuses on pumping fortune as high as possible? That would force you to pick different stats from early to mid to late game. But maybe that's not enough for you =(


Only the destiny skill has an impact on destiny? Oh, and a couple of warcries.

Anyway, even considering tailoring skills to blood/tears (easy with respec of course) there is still nowhere near as much diversity as there would be with separate skill trees for might/magic/factions.

Another problem with H6 skills is that in general H5 skills were just plain better. Attack +1 isn't a skill nor should it be. At least make it a percentage increase in melee damage or something.

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Brukernavn
Brukernavn

Hero of Order
posted July 09, 2011 01:21 AM

I like the new skill system very much, but I'm starting to think some sort of limiting factor is needed. I don't think it's the randomness from H5 people miss, but the major skills and the minor abilities. It's beginning to dawn on me that that's what I'm missing with this new system.  

Say, as a magic hero you could choose three magic schools and one might school, or something like that, and distribute your skill points among the schools as you'd like. And opposite for might heroes.

I think the removal of major skills and minor abilities is a bigger change than removing randomness. You no longer have to choose "dark magic" as a school in order to learn dark magic, you just pick spells from the school you'd like, making the schools less separated than before. And you loose the specialization feel. You'd have to make the schools balanced for this to work though, and that's been a real challenge with every heroes game so far.

They have introduced some limitations, making only five magic schools available for every faction, but apart from that you're completely free.

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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2011 01:30 AM

Slightly off topic, but +1 skill isn't really a skill worth getting at the moment simply because the scaling from hero skills to creature skills is so poor. It's a what ...less than 2% increase?


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MagniBronzeb...
MagniBronzebeard


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2011 03:05 AM

Randomness gave that good expectation feeling in case you get the skill you wanted, basically the way: "Hmm, what skill would help me now ... ? Ah yes, this one!" *looks what choices open* "OH, this is even better"

For other things, there was still memory mentor.

Basically I fear that the people will find a perfect build and no one will choose certain skills.

And also primary and secondary skills should be separated, along with spells, it's quite crappy that you need the whole level to learn a spell which also waste a point for a useful skill.

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vaeledrin
vaeledrin


Adventuring Hero
posted July 09, 2011 04:18 AM

Quote:
Randomness gave that good expectation feeling in case you get the skill you wanted, basically the way: "Hmm, what skill would help me now ... ? Ah yes, this one!" *looks what choices open* "OH, this is even better"

For other things, there was still memory mentor.

Basically I fear that the people will find a perfect build and no one will choose certain skills.

And also primary and secondary skills should be separated, along with spells, it's quite crappy that you need the whole level to learn a spell which also waste a point for a useful skill.


If people keep using the same build over and over, then it should be pretty easy for the devs to balance it out no? And information gathering should be much easier, right?


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DestinyatWork
DestinyatWork

Tavern Dweller
posted July 09, 2011 04:30 AM

As I also posted in the impressions thread already the skill system is one of the big let downs so far.

Random skills is not up for discussion that is one of the few things that went right, can't count the number of times I just didn't get the one or two skill or spells I needed in h5 in such a long game that really is the most frustrating thing.

But I loved the basic idea of a skill wheel it was very fitting.
I think it would work very well with classes but I would like them to use three might, magic, hybrid and at least 2 for every category.
Having 3 tiers with 3 skill for every tier lvl + 3 power lvl like f.e.+5%/+10%/+15% fire damage and a fitting ultimate if you reach tier 3 in 4 fields meaning lvl 25.

F.e. Haven

MightKnight/Guardian)
Offense, Defense, Tactics, Warcries, army Movement,

MagicCleric/Inquisitor/Fallen knight with dark)
Light, Dark, By Fire be purged, Prime, casting improvements,

HybridPaladin/Vindicator)
Light(Tears), fire(Blood), Offense(Blood), Defense(Tears)

Pretty rough I know it's just to give you an idea what I mean but I feel like there should be only a limited fitting set of skill groups available for the classes.
The problem is such changes most likely won't make it for the release. I doubt that they can change much about the skill system this late into development.
Which will be a problem the moment one hits multiplayer since with the system like it's now repetitive cookie cutter game play will make this boring pretty fast.

Just my opinion

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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted July 09, 2011 08:15 AM

Quote:
How is the Blood and Tears system handled in Hotseat? I can see how it would be quite interesting when faced with moral decisions in singleplayer, but in multi...? How does it work?

"You ****ing asshat cheater!"
*You just flamed your opponent in chat! +10 BLOOD!*


In multiplayer, Blood/Tears will be linked with the same multiplier you pick for XP.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted July 09, 2011 09:34 AM

Quote:
Quote:
True, experienced players will have an advantage through this skill system, but in previous HOMMs it felt like you had to WORK for the build you wanted.

Getting offered two random skills is work?

I love the new system. No more ****ing eagle eye and mysticism at level up. Never again.

Frankly, I think this problem had to an extent been solved by H5: Pretty much all the skills were usefull in Heroes 5.

I think one could perhaps have gone by a compromise: Skills being offered randomly, but perks being chosen at will once skill is learned (that would refer to a Heroes 5 skill system, obviously). The biggest problem in Heroes 5 was that sometimes you kept being offered the wrong perks within a skill which could completely ruin your build, because you were then unable to go for the synergies between the skills you had.

I think the new skill system is crap. Sad, but that's how I see it. Currently, you have a choice between a gazillion skills, and you're likely to gain 10 levels, 15 if you're very lucky, in a game. What fun is that? Worse, with so few skillpoints actually earned through a game, you're pretty much forced to take the exact same skills each time - emphasized by horrible balancing. I mean, who will not start out by picking Heal with any faction with access to Light Magic?

The new skill system might come to work if leveling is fixed (i.e. easier leveling and/or multiple skill points per level) and I wouldn't mind at all having more unique skills in each hero class' tree (even if that means less skills to choose from for each Hero - as it is now, you'll only learn a tiny fraction of the available skills anyway). But I don't in any way see it as an improvement of the Heroes 5 system which was extremely streamlined and with great variation and balance, and which offered a lot of strategical options through synergies between skills (i.e. powerfull perks being made available by combos of several skills).
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What will happen now?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 09, 2011 10:17 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:20, 09 Jul 2011.

@alci

what I really hated about the randomness, aside from the "haha you got no X so you lose" type of impact on play, is that there were certain awesome skills I wanted to try (for instance triple imbued ballista), but with 2% chance, I actually saw warmachines as elven hero maybe once or twice in my entire H5 career.

Why to create a cool unique perk and make it near-impossible to roll?

Randomness sucks so hard.


Also, I think players always starting with heal or regen isn't as bad as players always starting with dungeon or academy on small maps, because the castles X, Y and Z can't defend against a proper rush early on. Creeping SHOULD be equalized, even if that kills variety, because otherwise, there will be quickly tiers (on small maps which most play for dueling) and factions without creeping power will instantly become sub-par.

For instance, my friend could try as much as he wanted on a certain custom map in H5 when playing haven, my warlock rush defeated him over and over again (and he's generally better than I am).
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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted July 09, 2011 10:26 AM

As to the artifacts, my conclusions are quite the opposite. All of them are the same and don't do anything interesting. H3 had broken artifacts which made the game unpredictable, H4 had tons of different artifacts for army, hero or usable only once, even H5 was still more interetsing in that matter.
I can visit Artifact Merchant every week and find more and more new arts, which aren't really new at all to be honest.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 09, 2011 10:35 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:35, 09 Jul 2011.

I'd risk saying more powerful arties wouldn't hurt. Not crazy-imba H3 ones perhaps, and not staff of netherworld tier of H5, but something in between those and the current H6 arties.
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Crayfish
Crayfish


Known Hero
posted July 09, 2011 10:46 AM
Edited by Crayfish at 10:48, 09 Jul 2011.

Quote:
As to the artifacts, my conclusions are quite the opposite. All of them are the same and don't do anything interesting. H3 had broken artifacts which made the game unpredictable, H4 had tons of different artifacts for army, hero or usable only once, even H5 was still more interetsing in that matter.
I can visit Artifact Merchant every week and find more and more new arts, which aren't really new at all to be honest.


I don't know, still seems like a lot to me. Some of them are broken at the moment (like the bows that remove range penalty) but presumably they'll start to work at some point. I don't really long for the return of Armaggeddon's Blade. Artifacts that are just helpful are fine by me. Plus a few of the relics are actually pretty powerful.

Well, looks like there's a lot of negative feeling against random skills. Faction and class specific skill trees would be the best thing for me in that case, at least you wouldn't be building the same hero every time. It'd be a lot of work for the developers but you know what, they should just do it anyway. Work harder damnit. When I'm a multi-billionaire I'm totally going to hire a team to make the HOMM that should have been made.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 09, 2011 11:03 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 11:04, 09 Jul 2011.

Quote:
When I'm a multi-billionaire I'm totally going to hire a team to make the HOMM that should have been made.


Hopefully without random level ups?

But yeah, I really miss racial skills. Those were fun and unique. I really liked Gate master and lucky gating, for instance
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted July 09, 2011 11:19 AM

Quote:

So true. Meteor shower vs chain lightning is such a good example (or arcane armor vs phoenix).

This beta really needs stability + simultanous turns + internet multiplayer. Of course it gets dull with crashes, load inconsistencies, imbalance 'spikes' when basically testing stats that migh already be obsolate (against yourself).

In the armor /fenix case I would like to know what is the better one. As Fortress as a favorite faction I had more use for Arcane Armor then The phoenix. Why? I can create one unit that has e high health? or Save 50% of my own real unites that I have no real way to ressurect, but still I can use runes on.

@Doomforger: I see your opinions is vealed but... You have to understand that Heroes as much as a good game it is and as much as there are ligues and tournaments, will never be a Pro-gaming game. But it will always be a "Lets sit, play and chat" game or "I have some spare time game" I have a couple of on line games in my records, not much, but enough to understand, that this game has Unbalanced in its premise and such games are not meant for massive on line multiplayer

The old system had its charm And I think the HoMM V wan had gone in a good direction. But changes come and go. I did not have the oportunity to play the beta So I will wait untill I can make my own impression
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted July 09, 2011 11:23 AM
Edited by Warmonger at 11:56, 10 Jul 2011.

Quote:
But yeah, I really miss racial skills. Those were fun and unique. I really liked Gate master and lucky gating, for instance

The race-oriented gameplay also simplifies the game. Firstly, H5 racial skills worked mostly only for one faction, which discouraged players from taking units from another castle. Now, H6 introduces cheap town conversion, which certainly will not let us see mixed army anymore.

In H3 and H4, however, it was imminent to hire key units from other factions on more complex maps.
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!

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