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| Thread: IMPORTANT - LEVELLING PACE |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 23, 2011 07:33 AM |
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Poll Question:
IMPORTANT - LEVELLING PACE
One of the things I consider most important are the xp requirements for levelling. I have long felt that fast(X3) is not fast enough, while faster(X10) is too fast or rather it's ok but multiplying the amount of xp from chests and learning stones breaks the whole balance. Also since both are variants of the normal(campaign modifier X1), the higher the modifier, the easier the first few levels become. If the first level required 1000 xp, on X3 it would require 1/3 of that since you gain xp at triple the speed.
Now, I want your feeling on what the default xp rate should be and whether you are satisfied with it. Like I said, normal is meant for campaign only and faster is too fast. That leaves fast(X3) which is the closest to H5 but slower, much slower than my liking. I should note that later levels are gained easier compared to H5(above lvl 20) but it's the early levels I am concerned about.
So.. How do you feel about it?
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 07:58 AM |
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Personally, I like how fast fastest is, I don't see a problem with having it there with the understanding that it is well, ridiculously fast. I the first stage of the beta, I haven't played on fastest since, my level 1 secondary heroes gained 5 levels by visiting a exp stone. The ability to jump straight up to second level skills is fun, especially when it comes to more support oriented skills, like scouting or the economy skills. It allows for a lot of different things like basically 1 to 1 resource trading and ridiculously good gold exchange rates, and you can go pillage all of you enemy's mines. Plus easy access to awesome abilities is fun too.
As for faster, I agree, it could use a bit of tweaking, it's not quite in the sweet spot yet. While I feel it does a good job overall of leveling, early game it takes longer than I feel like it should. It's not a huge deal, and it's definitely not game breaking or anything, but some retooling of the system would be nice.
Personally I love the fact that they put in a variable for experience. I thought it was a very nice touch.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted July 23, 2011 08:05 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 08:10, 23 Jul 2011.
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Normal in MP games is out of the question. Faster starts well but then slows down considerably and Fastest is way too fast. I'd improve the leveling speed of Faster on the higher levels so it can roughly match the speed in the previous games and thus be used as a default setting and keep Fastest for the "blitz" games. I don't like the fact that you can get several levels at once, it kills part of the fun and is open to abuses - but this applies to normal games only.
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whiterider
Known Hero
death walks with me
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posted July 23, 2011 08:10 AM |
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Are you sure it is meant for campaigns only? Than the three options should be renamed as "normal" = "campaign", "faster" = "normal", "fastest" = "race". And set the new normal/old faster as default, because I used most of the time that option at the beginning leaving my hero at 5-6 level at the end of broken alliance.
I think (because I spend lots of time modding Kings Bounty and learning its mechanics) that the ammount of creatures guarding (on normal growth/leveling up) the mines, piles of goods, minor artifacts etc should be taken, and after seven battles you have the basis for leveling up your hero to lvl 2. Than take in fact that creatures grow (the weekly growth constant) and add that for level exp difference for next level and again after 7 battles you level up. The difference should rise slowly up and after lvl 5 you should need 10 battles with default set enemies on the map plus weekly growth constant, after lvl 10 - 15 battles and so on. Of course this depends on the map makers how many creatures they will set on a map but anyway if Broken Alliance is huge map than there is simply not enough space on the map to set that many stacks so you will level up like crazy.
I still cant open the beta files so I can see the real numbers in the formulas, so nothing define could be said...
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Warmonger
Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
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posted July 23, 2011 08:20 AM |
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They should simply flatten level curve.
Oh wait, in such case we would need higher level cap than just 30 not to hit it every map :/
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The future of Heroes 3 is here!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 23, 2011 09:38 AM |
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It's killing the game!
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it. It's one of the worst features, because it means that the skill/spell system (which I don't like, but which could have worked) is also made a disaster - and then, how much of the game is there left?
I think one key is that chests and learning stones etc. need to be tied to the "normal" (fast, x3) level; coupled with a slower XP progression on higher levels.
The problem is that currently - no matter if you play on x1, x3, or x10 rate, XP you earn from chests are MUCH MORE than what you earn from combats, which is just plain out of proportion. XP from chests should be usefull, certainly, but it should not be your main method of leveling for a larger part of the game.
Chests have always given an XP amount equal to their Gold amount minus 500 (i.e. 500XP/1000Gold, 1000XP/1500G, 1500XP/2000G), and this is obviously how it should be on the default game setting. If "fast" is the XP speed intended for normal (i.e. none-campaign) games, then "fast" should be the mode where chests provide 500/1000/1500 XP - and should be labeled "normal".
Campaign mode would need to be half XP compared to "normal" (i.e. "slow" would be x1.5, slightly faster than current Campaign Mode), and an optional "fast" mode (x2 of normal, corresponding to x6 in current language) should be available. The current "fastest" mode is so fast it's not even funny, and x6 would be a much more appropriate rate.
Notice that with above changes, you would generally earn less XP from none-combat sources than in current game, but there will be a better balance between combat and none-combat sources. To accomodate this decrease in XP income, levels also need to be adjusted down, particularly level 8+.
I think multiplying XP from chests / stones is ok, if they are tied with correct mode. Thus, what I suggest is three modes:
Slow: Campaign Mode, x1.5. Chests give 250 / 500 / 750 XP; Learning Stones give 750 XP.
Normal: Single/Multiplayer Mode, x3. Chests give 500 / 1000 / 1500 XP; Learning Stones give 1500 XP.
Fast: (Optional for S/M-player), x6. Chests give 1000 / 2000 / 3000 XP; Learning Stones give 3000 XP.
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What will happen now?
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maddoctor
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 09:51 AM |
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All leveling settings are at least unsatisfactory! I agree with alcibiades about the XP from the treasure chests - they give too much in contrast with the XP gained from battles! It takes off all the fun and challenge from the battles.
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 10:52 AM |
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Everything is unsatisfactory.
Campaign :
It's absolutely stupid that you need to clear the whole map with your main hero if you want to be sure to reach the max level. You're pretty much forced to play every combat on the map with your main hero because secondary heroes play no role other than picking some ressources and secondary skills like Economist and Architect.
XP needs to be faster in campaign so your Avatar reaches max level fast and so you can actually start playing around with secondary heroes like in previous Heroes games. Also at least 1 carry-over hero would be welcomed.
Faster Mode :
Faster pace is actually quite ok but I'm not pleased by the levelling curve. Early levels are a bit too fast and last levels are way too slow compared to the rest of a game in Faster mode.
Fastest Mode :
This is totally uninteresting except for speed-testing a map or for testing some game features but it's simply not playable and not fun.
Reputation :
This is the worst joke they ever made. The scaling with the XP scale is an utter failure.
In normal mode, the impact of spell casts has NO impact and you're only relying on out of combat events to gain reputation points. In Sandor's map, with all the stacks joining you, you're pushed towards tears reputation and other than some specific map event that grant you extra blood points, it would be nearly impossible to reach blood classes.
In faster/fastest mode, the points gains are just ridiculous, especially combined with the drop to 250 points to reach advanced class. There's absolutely NO fun gaining points too fast.
Imo the use of combat skills should have more impact on your reputation than only a few decisions on the map (let them flee/pursuit) and the advanced class should get back up to at least 400 rep points.
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infinitus
Supreme Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 11:30 AM |
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It's killing the game!
My opinion H6 mast have only one well balanced hero leveling speed, in worst case one for multiplayer and one for single. But no option to choose speed.
Another sign developer don't feel Heroes game at all, looks like for them Heroes 6 it's just job need to be done, maybe boring one...
More disturbing is another thing, even if they don't feel the game they have Vip forum, many other forums. But they don't have the capacity to listen and implement good ideas coming from here 
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Nothing's impossible
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 11:36 AM |
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I'd like fast to be x5, with chests and stones nerfed.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 23, 2011 11:39 AM |
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Whereas I do not agree with Alci that the current version of leveling is killing the game, I do agree with his solution of the problem. And with the fact that leveling via combat is underpowered in comparison to chests and map-locations.
Slower leveling in campaigns is perfectly fine, as you're supposed to use your heroes on multiple maps.
I'd say that current leveling speed is certainly to slow. I think Heroes V nailed it perfectly in terms of leveling speed. But I still think that the campaign leveling should be toned down, since hitting the level cap before or around halfway through your map is blunting for the fun.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted July 23, 2011 01:02 PM |
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Quote:
I think Heroes V nailed it perfectly in terms of leveling speed.
Heroes 5 was pretty good, until you reached level 26. I won't go into details with the Heroes 5 level algorithms, but there was a leveling wall in late 20's which completely stalled progression, which was a shame. But yeah, at least level 1-20-something worked well.
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What will happen now?
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted July 23, 2011 01:09 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I think Heroes V nailed it perfectly in terms of leveling speed.
Heroes 5 was pretty good, until you reached level 26. I won't go into details with the Heroes 5 level algorithms, but there was a leveling wall in late 20's which completely stalled progression, which was a shame. But yeah, at least level 1-20-something worked well.
Explains a lot. Aside from the campaigns, I never got past 20.
Hecks, I barely got to 20 in single maps and skirmishes. Usually winning the map or losing interest before that.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
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posted July 23, 2011 01:44 PM |
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It certainly needs a bit of tweaking, but I don't think it's a game-breaking issue. It emphasizes the importance of the player's choices, that's all. At most, I'd suggest to double the current(campaign) levelling speed. Any more than that would practically eliminate the need of careful planning.
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Sanity through drugs. Order yours today!
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted July 23, 2011 02:04 PM |
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alcibiades is spot-on about H5 being good to lvl 25. Though <imo> I think that it's from 20 instead of 25 that it begins to head south, it's only that the fall is just a little more tolerable.
I hate to dig up the golden-bones and swing them like a club again but why not head back to that of H3 with the +/- 1 past (what was it?) lvl.35? I was not here at that time but was there a great dissatisfaction with that back then?
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"Do your own research"
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kusosaru
Hired Hero
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posted July 23, 2011 03:49 PM |
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I think the main problem is that the XP requirements grow wayyyy to fast and beyond lvl 8 on normal settings (and ~ lvl 15 on fast settings) is where it starts taking way too long to level up.
=> In my opinion would be enough to reduce the exponential growth of the xp requirements by some 20-30%, that way the first few level gains wouldn't change too much, but the abnormal requirements beyond lvl 8 would go down to a reasonable level.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 26, 2011 09:09 AM |
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I rather expected more votes. Come on guys!
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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lichking012
Known Hero
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posted July 26, 2011 09:32 AM |
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I basically agree with Kosaru. The curve is too steep in normal and fast modes as leveling goes on. Other than that, while I think chests could use some tweaking I like being able to get your secondaries up to level 5 with one visit to a stone in fastest. It makes a lot of things like massive use of Economy 2 really effectvie.
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mike80d
Famous Hero
Map Maker
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posted July 26, 2011 01:50 PM |
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Quote:
I'd like fast to be x5, with chests and stones nerfed.
This sounds good to me.
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DestinyatWork
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 27, 2011 02:09 AM |
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I agree with most here the leveling speed feels at least unsatisfactory but since its a key game feature I voted for its killing it.
Normal is too slow even for campaign I would say it feels like forever to reach a single level.
Fast looks to be the best for multiplayer but the reputation leveling is broken. Also as mentioned combat should give way more exp while chest and stones should give considerably less.
The curve is another problem 1-5 feels very fast while from level 8 on it start to take forever and there you haven't even reached level two for your racial.
Fastest is just boring and feels like cheating.
I agree that they should create one slow speed for campaigns and a balanced one for multiplayer. I don't feel this is an option that should be players choice feels way to random.
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