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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: London under fire
Thread: London under fire [ This thread is 6 pages long: (1) 2 3 4 5 6 ]
Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 08, 2011 05:38 AM

London under fire

The multiculturalism in all its glory.






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Elodin
Elodin


Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
posted August 08, 2011 06:31 AM
Edited by Elodin at 06:33, 08 Aug 2011.

They need to do more than scuffle with the criminals while wearing riot gear. Spray them down with rubber bullets if necessary. If that does not work break out the shotguns.

Clicky
Quote:

Some protesters filled bottles with gasoline to throw at police lines, others confronted officers with makeshift weapons -- including baseball bats and bars -- and attempted to storm the station.

Within hours, police in riot gear and on horseback were clashing with hundreds of rioters, fires were raging out of control, and looters combed the area. One video posted to the Guardian newspaper's website showed looting even carried on into the following day, with people even lining up to steal from one store just after dawn.



And from your link:
Quote:

Twenty-six officers and three others were hurt in the violence which erupted after a protest over the fatal shooting by police of Mark Duggan on Thursday.



They need to authorize their officers to do more to protect themselves.

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DarkShadow
DarkShadow


Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
posted August 08, 2011 07:05 AM

Skip the rubber bullets and go straight to gunning them down with riot shotguns.
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bixie
bixie


Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted August 08, 2011 07:32 AM

Yeah elodin, shooting people is really going to solve the problem. You know, like the fatal shooting of the Mark Duggan that started this whole thing.

As much as I love London, it is not a perfect city. Areas of the city are subject to gang violence, and the police have had a long history of racism. The Area of Haringey does have a long history of tension between the police and the public. Going "Cowboy cop" on the place isn't going to solve that, in fact, it will make it worse.

The main reason why gang activity is so prevalent is that the majority of young people there see it as A) cool, B) easy and C) the world is against them anyway, so why bother trying anything else? the cyclical nature of that apathy is what drives people to take an easy option, over working. Hell, the very fact that 23-year old Richard Tawaih, who is a uni student, got pulled over to be stopped and searched, just because he was a black youth in Haringey, should raise some alarms.

the Stop and Search police tactic can be done on a hunch, and that, unfortunately, means that grouping certain demographics with certain activities. Black youth = drug runner, White skin-head = EDL thug, Muslim man = Terrorist. These are in no way accurate assumptions about the person, and so when they are pulled over for a stop and search purely on that, people begin to feel victimised, and when they feel victimised, they are prone to lashing out.

As far as I'm concerned, there is fault on both sides. Black youths in gangs need to grow the f**k up and understand that just because the world is against you, does not mean you can keel over and let them stereotype you. On the side of the police, they need to find a different approach to the stop and search tactic that isn't so demeaning, because that leads the innocent people getting put into unfair demographics, as well as engage in dialogue with the public rather than closing off to them.

for further reading on the subject, I submit
this


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Elodin
Elodin


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posted August 08, 2011 09:32 AM
Edited by Elodin at 09:38, 08 Aug 2011.

Quote:
Yeah elodin, shooting people is really going to solve the problem. You know, like the fatal shooting of the Mark Duggan that started this whole thing.

As much as I love London, it is not a perfect city. Areas of the city are subject to gang violence, and the police have had a long history of racism. The Area of Haringey does have a long history of tension between the police and the public. Going "Cowboy cop" on the place isn't going to solve that, in fact, it will make it worse.



From what I understand the guy the police killed shot a cop and other cops shot back. That does not sound like racist cops causing a problem to me.

Letting cops get put in the hospital by thugs won't solve the problem, it only escalates it. The thugs feel more and more powerful and escalate their actions even more.

Here is the gangster who was killed flashing his gang sign.


Clicky
Quote:

Staring at the camera and making a gun symbol with his fingers, this is the dead 'gangster' whose death sparked the Tottenham riots.

Mark Duggan, 29, was in a car being followed by police during a covert operation on Thursday.

But Duggan, a known offender from Londonís notorious Broadwater Farm Estate, became aware that he was being followed and opened fire on the officers.

He shot the officer from Scotland Yardís elite firearms squad CO19 in the side of his chest with a handgun.

The bullet lodged in the police radio that the undercover officer was carrying in a side pocket.

Armed officers shot the gunman dead seconds later.

Residents said at least three shots were fired when officers swooped during the evening rush hour at about 6.15pm.

The Evening Standard quoted the dead man's girlfriend Simone Wilson, 29, as saying she was 'shocked' to learn her boyfriend of 13 years was carrying a gun.

A witness said the shooting took place near a bus stop and medics tried to save the manís life as he lay in the street.



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SkrentyzMienty
SkrentyzMienty


Famous Hero
posted August 08, 2011 09:55 AM - penalty applied by Corribus on 08 Aug 2011.
Edited by Corribus at 13:27, 08 Aug 2011.

MOD EDIT: Unacceptable posting behavior, Skrentyz.  You don't even get a warning for that.

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Adrius
Adrius


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Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
posted August 08, 2011 09:59 AM
Edited by Corribus at 13:28, 08 Aug 2011.

Quote:
MOD NOTE: EDITED OUT.


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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 08, 2011 10:08 AM

They are asking for it

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Adrius
Adrius


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Stand and fight!
posted August 08, 2011 10:12 AM

How is it relevant? Isn't this about a black guy who had been shot? The protestors are mostly black as well?

Skrentzy you piss me off.
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bixie
bixie


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my common sense is tingling!
posted August 08, 2011 10:23 AM

Quote:
Quote:
Yeah elodin, shooting people is really going to solve the problem. You know, like the fatal shooting of the Mark Duggan that started this whole thing.

As much as I love London, it is not a perfect city. Areas of the city are subject to gang violence, and the police have had a long history of racism. The Area of Haringey does have a long history of tension between the police and the public. Going "Cowboy cop" on the place isn't going to solve that, in fact, it will make it worse.



From what I understand the guy the police killed shot a cop and other cops shot back. That does not sound like racist cops causing a problem to me.

Letting cops get put in the hospital by thugs won't solve the problem, it only escalates it. The thugs feel more and more powerful and escalate their actions even more.



nor will killing thugs solve the problem either. I agree with you, we need to get tougher on crime, but most importantly, we need to stop the crime at the source, and prevent the tottenham riots from happening again. Arming one side is only going to make the other side want to arm themselves with better weapons.

I'm not saying the problem is racist cops. I'm saying it's a combination of victimisation, miscommunication and the hangover effects of an unfortunate history where the london police were fairly racist. This has lead people to mistrust the police. Gaining that trust back isn't going to be easy and will take a long time, but it's better than widening the gap further.

Look, I've worked in an outreach program in plumbstead for a while, as part of a drama therapy group. It's in the south side of London, in a neighbourhood that isn't too different from Haringey. The guys that I've worked with are black youths who have been in street gangs. Whilst they try and big themselves up, and brag about no-one messing with them as a group, get them on their own for one to one direction, and it becomes clear how vulnerable and unsure they are of themselves.  the thug persona is just that, a persona, nothing more.

I remember about a month ago, Tuesday evening, this kid, Darren, came in to the centre, visibly shaken. When I asked him what was wrong, he snapped at me, telling me to leave him alone. We were doing Journey's End, and we were about to do the final scene with Stanhope and Rayleigh dying. Darren, who was playing Stanhope, couldn't do it and walked out into the counselling room. I found out later from the Counsellor, Janet, that he had been in his first shoot out and one of his friends was badly wounded and in the hospital. Before then, Darren had been one of the more friendly and co-operative people in the outreach program, and probably the most open about what he did. After that, he closed up, retreated into an uncooperative, apathetic and thuggish persona.

but hey, this is just my experience of the London borough gang warfare, and like everything, we base our judgements on experience.
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del_diablo
del_diablo


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Manifest
posted August 08, 2011 11:10 AM

This is not "muslim rampage" but a "poor rampage" where them majority of the poor happens to be muslims.
First off: Restore all the cut stuff from social securtity, add on some more for the really poor, then legalize drugs, and then increase the amount of police presence on the streets.
1 and 2: This will solve the problem of people being recruited to violence because they are living really snowty
3. This will remove the local gangs entire revenue, resulting in less gang violence
4. However there will be short term problems, and the only way to supress that requires more police


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Tsar-Ivor Online
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted August 08, 2011 11:22 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 11:40, 08 Aug 2011.

I wouldn't be surprised if police shot one of their own. In the heat of the riot, who would know?




Besides violently quelling a riot is only a temporary solution, they will riot again, because the reason they did so still persists, it's logically inevitable, the real solution would be to find the source of the unrest, and rectify it appropriately, but no we must live in a world where that's too much trouble , putting down riots easier, afterall thats what the police get paid for, right?
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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 08, 2011 11:40 AM
Edited by Corribus at 15:48, 08 Aug 2011.

Quote:
This is not "muslim rampage" but a "poor rampage" where them majority of the poor happens to be muslims.
First off: Restore all the cut stuff from social securtity, add on some more for the really poor, then legalize drugs, and then increase the amount of police presence on the streets


What has to do being poor with constant violence expression? The poor can't talk?

Legalize drugs: non sense. Are you aware what effects have the drugs upon people behavior? Most of them generate that violence and annihilate any responsibility feeling.

Those people are really lucky to have people like Bixie or you still victimizing them. You guys are great, they managed to change Europe in a ****-hole in less than 10 years but you kept your comprehension and compassion capital intact. I wish I could.

MOD NOTE: Pls keep in mind that CoC states that curse words must be completely sensored, replacing all letters with asterixes.
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Tsar-Ivor Online
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted August 08, 2011 11:52 AM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 12:05, 08 Aug 2011.

I'd support the legalization of drugs if:
-Fully under government control and profits for the government.
-Home production still prohibited.
-Public usage prohibited
-21 age restriction
-A reasonable usage determined.
-High quality drugs sold cheaply.
-And a very extensive investigation as to the specifics of individuals for why they use drugs. Also support to those who wish to be rid of effects of drugs. (Including addiction)

Really in a country of free choice, people should really decide whether they want drugs or not (I've seen many of you fight vigorously for a humans right to choose).

People will use drugs, they might aswell be given a trustworthy supplier of high quality goods and will also be supporting their government.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 08, 2011 12:04 PM

Legalize drugs is like legalize drink then drive. The effect drugs have upon violent people is similar.
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Tsar-Ivor Online
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted August 08, 2011 12:07 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 14:37, 09 Aug 2011.

I didn't mean legalise per-say, I really meant have full control of the trade. For-now ti'll a better solution is aquired, it would indeed be better if people could gain access to quality drugs cheaply, so they need not fear that they've been sold expensive ****, this way we gain trust.

These people need a real lending hand, and not a boot to the face: "why can't you be a productive member of society?" and then you wonder why riots and other atrocities occur...

Besides I'm not saying that the 'legalisation' of drugs will solve the issue of riots, I'm saying that it is part of the solution


EDIT: Also, I recently found out that this is much more severe then it first appeared, not just for the fact that I have family who were effected by the riot and the oppression that caused and triggered it, (the death of Mark Duggan was the breaking-point it wasn't 'the cause' per-say) but also the extent of the damage which as I said I've only recently comprehended.
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mvassilev
mvassilev


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Undefeatable Hero
posted August 09, 2011 03:22 PM

Quote:
Legalize drugs is like legalize drink then drive.
What a terrible analogy. Drugs only hurt the user. Drinking and driving hurts others.
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Fauch
Fauch


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posted August 09, 2011 03:28 PM

if you legalize drugs, it should be well monitored, because people will for sure put snow in them just to lower costs. I mean, they do that with everything, not just drugs, and without any risks to get into troubles.

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Salamandre
Salamandre


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posted August 09, 2011 03:29 PM

I would not be such affirmative.  Drugs are used to nullify social sensitivity thus the behavior is potentially dangerous, mostly for others.
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Tsar-Ivor Online
Tsar-Ivor


Legendary Hero
Ω Sunt lacrimae rerum Ω
posted August 09, 2011 03:30 PM
Edited by Tsar-Ivor at 15:43, 09 Aug 2011.

As I said high quality goods for low prices, my stance on food is the same, quality over quantity (of-course mass production of high quality goods to sustain the populous is the aim).

Salamandre were not discussing whether taking drugs is good or bad, but those who make the choice to take drugs (free choice imho) should receive it from a trustworthy source, for the time-being that is, the world is snowed up as it is, I cannot in good judgement deny people this relief.
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