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| Thread: Use of language regulation |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 14, 2011 09:37 AM |
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Use of language regulation
Language regulation rules have a purpose I do understand and support widely - but not completely.
Profane usage of swear words just for the heck of it or because it sounds cool - I don't think we need that.
I own a T-Shirt with the print "**** you, you ****ing ****" (except that there are no asterisks on the shirt, but the real thing). If you now scratch your head - it expresses an attitude, and a very one-dimensional one that fits quite well to the attitude.
Anyway, I don't think we need to "spice up" language, by inserting always the same sleazy stuff.
However, I think we have to make a difference. Language and its words are not completely useless, and while most of the time most banned words's usage would be "profane", there certainly ARE usages.
My first gripe is, when it comes to art. A Title is a title and when a song is named "It's all snow", it it's done for a reason. I think, we should be able to quote and cite examples of contemporary art, without using asterisks. It's like putting black bars over a painting - come on, it's ART, and asterisks are censorship.
The second gripe is the fact that certain words should not be forbidden, since they should long have been cleaned from negative meaning, since that's a discrimination. Take the word for illegitimate child. Obviously, legitimate or not, today for children this is legally spoken no difference. So it SHOULDN'T even be an offensive word anymore. Consequently this word shouldn't be banned, if it's used to express the simple fact that someone IS an illegitimate child (and NOT a despicable person).
The same thing is true for most things that have to do with sex and sexuality. This "dimension" of language also - like the illegitimate child stuff - let's us take a look into our collective past when certain activities, attitudes, orientations and life styles were considered immoral and have begative meaning.
No word for the sex act should be considered "dirty". No word for the sexual organs should be considered dirty either. No word that discribes a certain life style should be considered dirty.
Take for example all words that are terms for women with an "immoral lifestyle". The fact that these words are considered offensive is a discrimination.
Example: s l u t. There are two meanings for this. It's a slovenly WOMAN, or a promiscuous WOMAN.
Name one reason why this word should be "banned". What meaning exactly makes this word a "snow" word? The problem with this is the combination of 1) woman; 2) slovenly; and 3) promiscuous which means that if you call someone that way it's always everything together: if you call a slovenly woman that way, it implies that she would also have sex with half of the town; if you call her that way to simply denote the fact that she is promiscuous, it implies that she is slovenly as well, so it's always negative. Add to that the fact that it's only women called that way, we face something like a language barrier that is actively conserving old ways of thinking.
We won't change anything by BANNING these things.
Conclusion: I think, with language we should somewhat follow, what is, depending on the denomination of Christianity, either the second or the third commandment: "Do not take the name of the Lord IN VAIN." (Simply exchange the name of the Lord with words). We shouldn't use WORDS in vain, as my T-Shirt print does and as it is so common in everyday language. We shouldn't use a word that is a term for the sex act as a multi-purpose word that spices up sentences, filling blanks, expressing nothing except a disrespect for a couple of things.
But we SHOULD be able to use words according to their meaning.
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted August 14, 2011 12:36 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 12:50, 14 Aug 2011.
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To quote the magnificent Nightterror:
Quote:
The word I used isn't a bad word in my own countries, its used to make babies, how can that be a bad thing?
Seriously though, that swear words are always censored isn't that much deal imo. However I agree that censorship of "art" is bad, but on the other hand how would we allow an exception of that in a good way?
I think it's more problematic when someone uses a link that contains a bad word. :/
I agree completely that words for illegitimate children and slovenly/promiscuous women should no longer be banned. Because that's just silly...
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 14, 2011 02:28 PM |
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Then again this Forum is open to children, who would not understand, surely you could say snow means a slovenly woman, but the fact that this isn't common knowledge is all the same, but I really don't understand why you would post a thread or reply about sexual intercourse....or the fact that someone or yourself is a snow..., (illegitimate  ) It's something that is more appropriately done over a HCM as I said before.
I would be inclined to agree if you actually had a situation that the fact that you can't use profane words cripled your arguement or prevented you from replying appropriately. If you do please share  ,
I'm eager to hear it.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 14, 2011 08:05 PM |
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Don't you think, that you can discuss something in the OSM, like:
Are illegitimate (silly word) - snows - disadvantaged or not?
Also we have a thread in the OSM called LGBT. It's fairly difficult to talk about a couple of things there without calling things by their correct names.
Lastly - what do you mean we have children here? So what?
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted August 14, 2011 09:54 PM |
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what is your problem ? can u not express yourself w/o using curse words ? is your vocabulary so lame that u cant find other words for certain things ? fuss over nothing pfffff 
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted August 14, 2011 09:59 PM |
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It's not really about him trying to find other words to express himself, its about him trying to betray the law., for nothing, no purpose, no point, it's like watching a dog barking at his cage.
The fact that he brought the subject up without even a base (lacking a prime example which made him do this thread) makes his arguement a little more then a joke, no offense intended JJ, just the way it seems from where I'm standing.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 14, 2011 10:04 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 22:06, 14 Aug 2011.
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For the record, I have no problem with HC's language policy. On the other hand, I wouldn't really have a problem with it if some cursing (for non-insulting purposes, obviously) were allowed.
In the end, however, allowing cursing in some instances but not others invites a lot of room for bickering about whether it's allowed in this case or that case, if this was proper usage and that was not, etc. You open all kinds of doors to invite arguments and fingerpointing whenever a curse-word is edited or penalized by a mod - "Well so-and-so was allowed to say it in such-and-such thread!"
Easier from a mod's point of view to just forbid usage of certain words altogether and encourage people to be more articulate with their conversation. This is good for consistency and easy moderating policy. As I've said elsewhere, my policy for language in the OSM is that any word not automatically edited is fine as long as it's not used to insult. Any word automatically edited by forum software is officially off-limits and you risk being penalized for not censoring it properly. Reason for using the word does not matter. This is easy for me to implement and easy for all users to understand - there's no gray territory and no real room for argument.
However, if you feel strongly that certain words should be allowed (such as JJ's illigit child) then make your case to Val and maybe he will change which words can be written at HC, and therefore in OSM.
Cheers.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 14, 2011 10:32 PM |
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Well, this is about language.
I suppose, the clever people who post here can explain to me the following thing:
What EXACTLY makes the word S L U T so offensive, that you can't write it down AND if you call someone that way it's a grave offense?
WHAT?
Is it the meaning of the word? A slovenly woman. Is that something so undescribably unspeakable that you can only whisper the word, and woe to every child that hears it?
Or is it the promiscuous woman that makes this off limit? What is so unspeakable about that? It means a woman who is sexually active with often changing partners. What makes THAT an offense?
Or is it the combination? Does the word have the meaning that a person have to be both to be correctly called that way - that is, must a S L U T be both promiscuous and slovenly -, and is THAT something unspeakable?
Or is it the fact that it WAS so some time ago. That this kind of behaviour WAS really frowned upon and morally inacceptable by the "straight and decent" part of society?
The etymological Dictionary says the following about the word:
Quote:
c.1400, "a dirty, slovenly, or untidy woman," probably cognate with dialectal Ger. Schlutt "slovenly woman," dialectal Swed. slata "idle woman, snow," and Du. slodder "snow," but the ultimate origin is doubtful. Chaucer uses snowtish (late 14c.) in reference to the appearance of an untidy man. Also "a kitchen maid, a drudge" (mid-15c.; hard pieces in a bread loaf from imperfect kneading were called snow's pennies, 18c.). Meaning "woman of loose character, bold hussy" is attested from mid-15c.; playful use of the word, without implication of loose morals, is attested from 1660s.
Our little girl Susan is a most admirable snow, and pleases us mightily. [Pepys, diary, Feb. 21, 1664]
Sometimes used 19c. as a euphemism for snow to describe a female dog. There is a group of North Sea Germanic words in sl- that mean "sloppy," and also "slovenly woman," and that tend to evolve toward "woman of loose morals" (cf. slattern, also English dial. slummock "a dirty, untidy, or slovenly person," 1861; M.Du. slore "a snowtish woman").
Pretty interesting, I think.
Maybee I shouldn't have followed the suggestion to post here, maybe it would be an interesting zopic in the OSM.
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted August 14, 2011 10:42 PM |
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Edited by Insanity at 22:42, 14 Aug 2011.
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ur girlfriend is a slu* jolly man, feel offended ? will she get offended ? i would be offended 
go into harlem and call a black person the N word and then try to explain to him why that word actually isnt offensive, its about how the word is received and not about what it means in the dictionary, make useful threads coz i wont tolerate this and u will be penalized by me posting pictures of baby monkeys
last warning 
 
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JollyJoker
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posted August 15, 2011 07:53 AM |
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Quote:
ur girlfriend is a slu* jolly man, feel offended ? will she get offended ? i would be offended
Most of the time an offense is taken when you are called something you are not (or you don't feel you are). For example, if you tell someone "You are fat", and if the person in question IS fat, said person may FEEL offended, but if said person is indeed what an expert (a doc, for example) would call, "seriously overweighted", than said person IS fat, and the person takes offense only, because the word is so direct (or the person is lying to him/herself).
The same thing is of course true for the sl-word, but also for, say, coward. Most people would be offended if called coward or cowardly in their behaviour - however, those words won't be "snowed" here.
It's not about offensive qualities of words as such. Calling a person in an internet-forum the sl-word will be an offense most of the time, since people will miss the data to allow such judgement, however, if a person would announce something, last week I've been out with 3 different boys and all three sucked in bed - could she really complain if someone answered, 3 boys in one week? Isn't that a bit sl-ty?
But that's not the point. The question is what's so unspeakable about the word, that you are not allowed to write it, because no one younger must read it. What is wrong with THE WORD AND ITS MEANING to make it off-limits, no matter the context it is used in?
If you don't have anything else to contribute except whining about how useless the thread is, feel free to simply shut up.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 12:12 PM |
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JJ this is an online Forum if you have not forgotten, please conduct yourself likewise to avoid confrontation, If I was a mod/admin (whoever has the ability to make it so ) I'd permitt high QP members to post some of the 'mild' profane words (COC STILL APPLIES! ), but to be open to all is just asking for a **** storm  .
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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JollyJoker
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 12:59 PM |
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Quote:
JJ this is an online Forum if you have not forgotten, please conduct yourself likewise to avoid confrontation,
Don't get ridiculous, please. I'm starting to feel like we are back in the Middle Ages and I just asked the local priest where the Bible says that you can buy indulgence with gold.
Just as a reminder, the question was, what exactly is wrong with certain words - example given - that they will be corrected automatically, no matter the context in which they are used?
Will a 12-year-old get blind when reading it? Corrupted? Lose all inncence and become a disciple of Satan?
You'd think so, reading "anwers" here.
Fact is, that adult issues are discussed on a regular basis. Drugs, for example. Death penalty, serious crime, there is an LGBT thread, racism, violence, man trafficking. So it's clear that adult issues are not shunned.
Furthermore there is a codex of conduct. The codex of conduct is about how people are to behave themselves when talking with others. Obviously they are not supposed to offend each other, but as obviously whether you offend someone or not has no direct connection to the words used. If I say to someone, "You are a stupid idiot", none of the words is banned, but the sentence is a grave offense.
So obviously the complete ban of certain words has other reaons than avoiding offense. It's the words AS SUCH that are considered "bad", and what I want to know is WHY.
Can't be so difficult, can it?
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted August 15, 2011 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
Most of the time an offense is taken when you are called something you are not (or you don't feel you are). For example, if you tell someone "You are fat", and if the person in question IS fat, said person may FEEL offended, but if said person is indeed what an expert (a doc, for example) would call, "seriously overweighted", than said person IS fat, and the person takes offense only, because the word is so direct (or the person is lying to him/herself).
The same thing is of course true for the sl-word, but also for, say, coward. Most people would be offended if called coward or cowardly in their behaviour - however, those words won't be "snowed" here.
It's not about offensive qualities of words as such. Calling a person in an internet-forum the sl-word will be an offense most of the time, since people will miss the data to allow such judgement, however, if a person would announce something, last week I've been out with 3 different boys and all three sucked in bed - could she really complain if someone answered, 3 boys in one week? Isn't that a bit sl-ty?
But that's not the point. The question is what's so unspeakable about the word, that you are not allowed to write it, because no one younger must read it. What is wrong with THE WORD AND ITS MEANING to make it off-limits, no matter the context it is used in?
If you don't have anything else to contribute except whining about how useless the thread is, feel free to simply shut up.
why iz u talkin silly stuff ?
fat people who know they are fat dont mind being called fat ?
stupid people who know they arent smart dont mind being called stupid ?
ugly people who know they dont look good dont mind being called ugly ?
guyz with tiny man parts wouldnt mind us pointing that up ?
have u ever met a human in your life to say somethin like that ? people get more sensitive over things that are true than those that arent, if u call me dumb while i know my iq is off the grid u think it will ofend me... me would laugh at that
if anything me would call someone beautiful ugly b4 doing so 2 actual ugly person coz those dudes probably got teased way more and coz that would b way meaner, reality to jolly check one check two
back on point, coward is a bit vague but is hardly as offensive as stupid/nigg word/bitc word/slu word/fa word related to gay people if i see u usin one of those on other girl, black or gay member i would be upset even though it wasnt aimed at me at all, if 12 yr old sees u sayin stuff like that - monkey sees monkey does and we dont want kids actin like that in here, even if their environment is horrid at least here they can see a nice way of communication and respectable behavior towards others.
if girl says she's been with three guys in a week u can use "u get around dont u?" instead of sl* word or you can actully grow out of your chauvinistic pig attitude  and think what would u call a guy who slept with three girls in a week 
the word is considered offensive to us female members of the forum, its insultin to see it used here and its cool by the coc, the only one with problem is the big jolly who haz to curse to feel like a man, u saddddd or u madddd
look  even monkey babies play nice with others but u cant
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted August 15, 2011 01:28 PM |
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Well any 'offensive' word, such as the one's you have mentioned are used as insults, hence the offense. And in polite society, we don't wish to have these words peppered through our daily vocabulary. Overusage often ends up with those words becoming a common occurrence ... truth be known they are used too often anyway.
I can just imagine going to Mass and hearing my priest give his homily using words such as snow, sl*t, (the c word) as though they didn't mean anything .. they were just popular every day words.
Also these words when used the context they were meant to be often add weight to what you are saying. If I was being bugged by someone and told them to "go away" ... okay they might, but I told them to 'f**k off" they would definitely get the point.
We don't really need these words in this forum. We all understand each other perfectly well without having to use insults, which is what they are really.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted August 15, 2011 01:36 PM |
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Quote:
stupid ?
guyz with tiny man parts wouldnt mind us pointing that up ?
That's our daily nightmare, having a girl calling us eunuchs.
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Era II mods and utilities
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted August 15, 2011 01:39 PM |
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Quote:
Fact is, that adult issues are discussed on a regular basis. Drugs, for example. Death penalty, serious crime, there is an LGBT thread, racism, violence, man trafficking. So it's clear that adult issues are not shunned.
It is not necessary to use profanity in discussing adult issues.
Val could chose to allow you to use profanity as every other word. He could chose to have porn and porn advertisements on the site. However, that would drive away many fans and his site is not about profanity or porn. It is a site primarily about HOMM that also has sections devoted to real world issues, other games, ect.
Quote:
Furthermore there is a codex of conduct. The codex of conduct is about how people are to behave themselves when talking with others. Obviously they are not supposed to offend each other, but as obviously whether you offend someone or not has no direct connection to the words used. If I say to someone, "You are a stupid idiot", none of the words is banned, but the sentence is a grave offense.
Yes, "you are a stupid idiot" is banned because it insults a community member. Just because the site forbids profane language does not mean it can't forbid other ways of expressing yourself.
Quote:
So obviously the complete ban of certain words has other reaons than avoiding offense. It's the words AS SUCH that are considered "bad", and what I want to know is WHY.
Can't be so difficult, can it?
Probably because in polite society one does not go around swearing like a drunken sailor, even though in certain parts of society "cussing" is more acceptable than it once was. If you were to have entered my father's house when he was younger and gone to cussing up a storm he would first have told you that is not allowed in his house. The second time he would have slapped you down.
You may want to "cuss up a storm" but this is Val's "house" and he does not have to allow you to do so. I suppose you can email Val and ask him for his justification for the rules he set.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 02:16 PM |
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*facepalm*
Insanity, is that mutilated slaughter of written English supposed to be read and understood? Do you really expect people to read that gibberish?
That kind of utter idsrespect for language and its understanding fromm someone who works himself up about perceived linguistic offenses ... that's pretty absurd.
@ Meroe
You mean, certain words are AUTOMATIC insults, no matter the context they are used in? Is there any word for a child born outside of marriage EXCEPT the b-word? No, I don't think so.
Now, that word has "adopted" an offensive quality, because there was a time when people thought badly about such people. It was an portant distinction that said sething about the quality of a person, which is the reason why this word would be used offensively.
Compare that with "heathen" and "pagan", two words with slightly different meanings, but that were (and somewhat still are) negative words as well. "Heathen" would be a synonym for barbaric and primitive, hile "pagan" was mainly used for polytheistic beliefs and "pleasure-friendly" religions.
Now what exactly makes the b-word such a taboo, but others not? What is so special, considering there is no other word for it. Are people who are born outside of marriage are forever to be burdended with the fact that there is a word for them - which is an extremely outrageous offense wen you call someone that way?
The same thing is true with names for gays. Gays were considered sinners and whatnot, therefore there are all kinds of words for them that were used with negative intention, since those people were considered so. (Same things with black people; they were considered inferior subhumans.)
Now, if attitudes about people change - slowly - language doesn't change with it, al least not so fast. This creates uncertainty.
It's strange, however, that you wouldn't be able to use them in any context.
It's even stranger when you consider that other words, like the f-word, falls into that category, but screw, for example, would be allowed.
All I try here is to get a discussion going about what all this strict censoring of language is supposed to be good for.
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Insanity
Known Hero
Brain cells killa
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posted August 15, 2011 02:36 PM |
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u dont write proper english so i'll ignore whats written
close your ears and start singing loud, thats what usually 10 yr olds do and the same thing ur doing.
u raise a question but ur not interested in answers, thats also something 10 yr olds do.
i will go talk to brick wall, at least the convo will be more mature, concept of reality and humans have been surgically removed from your head anyway, peace 
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 15, 2011 02:51 PM |
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Actually JJ is 2,5 times older than you, Insanity, so calling him immature is a bit, you know, ironic
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted August 15, 2011 02:56 PM |
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I'm starting to think JJ is the offspring of Oforf, but alas even Oforf udnerstood this:
"A wise man speaks because he has something to say; a fool because he has to say something."
The fact that there is no base, nothing, ergo this thread seems more like a random outburst, rather then a serious thread.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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