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| Thread: On Might & Magic Abilities |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2011 01:33 PM |
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On Might & Magic Abilities
Initially I wasn't impressed. What I saw was all heroes having everything with just their opposite class skills restricted to tier 2 and a different 5/7 magic school combination. But there seems to be more to it - with spells being affected by reputation, level and spellpower the picture looks a lot different.
Destructive spells being influeced by hero level, they are not going to be worthless for might heroes as they used to, especially if they follow the blood path. They won't be anywhere close to magic hero potential but they will still have something to show, at least in creeping. Likewise light magic heroes may not be as specialized but their destructive can hurt.
Buffs are thankfully tied to spellpower which means that while might heroes can get a pretty decent 20% stoneskin reduction, magic heroes will still get the most out of it. And due to buffs being weakened by enemy magic defense, the picture looks a lot more interesting. Also given the mass spells' high mana cost, might heroes cannot afford to keep casting one mass spell after another. And speaking of mass spells, I am so glad to see that they are weaker than their basic version. Not only is it more balanced but it feels good when you find a situation where casting the basic spell is actually a better deal.
I feel it was these four issues that were dragging the H5 buff system down, it was so painfully broken.
Like you would expect, warcries can be pretty decent for might heroes. A mass warcry while not as powerful as its magical spellcounterpart, it comes for free and that helps might heroes a LOT. Sure you will throw a few mass spells around but it's warcries that will get you through when your mana gets evaporated. Also I do not believe warcries can be dampened by an enemy stat like spells are, making them more useful than they may seem. And the tier 3 warcries? Absolutely awesome, well worth having for their tactical potential. Unsurprisingly I have seen that magic heroes have absolutely no use for warcries, there is nothing that their spells cannot do better.
Now on the tears - blood comparison and mixing. It is not always clear whether it is better to stock up on abilities of your reputation or mix them, or how much at that. From what I have seen a mix is the best of both worlds. While some you may not want to touch, the rest can be fairly useful even if not as powerful without the proper path.
Take inner fire, can you say no to a 20% extra damage? I would to a 15% but if you hit 20% it's an instant pick for me. Or taunt, tear players will likely receive no damage at all but even if you receive 70% of the damage, it can pay off. Time stasis may last 6 turns for tears but even 3-4 turns can be all you need to put down that rampaging cyclops stack before it slaughters your whole army. Petrification, it may last less but can you deny the fun of having an invulnerable unit while you nuke your distressed enemies? Heroic charge, if you get +2 speed and a hefty damage bonus, does it even matter if that bonus is 14% or 18%? Hell I wouldn't mind if it was 10%.
I would say that the whole thing vastly depends on your other available skills and your tactical plan - and you can pull off some brilliant combinations with a little creativity. I may even avoid combinations I would have pursued with another class simply because they are not as useful for them.
Finally, magic school availability. I certainly lack the experience to pass judgement on the system given my relative inexperience but so far it is turning out better than I thought.
- Take orcs, no prime means no mass haste which could be devastating on the very first turn. They may have purge from dark but not mass dispel. They have no teleport, no mana leech, no time stasis. But they have some sweet combinations with the elemental spells, most powerful being inner fire + vampirism(which thankfully can be dispelled/purged  ). Add some warcries and it feels fun! Their magic heroes can still get decent destructive/cursing/healing/buffing capabilities.
- Nagas have no fire magic thank God. Nor dark which could have wreaked some havoc given their abilities at outmaneuvering enemies in the battlefield, they could cause a real mess in the formations. And as for vampirism/regen.. They can live without it.
- I was initially apprehensive of haven lacking water, possibly because clone and bless used to belong there. But truth be told they do not need it, they can benefit from buffs and destructive a lot more. Dark.. That could be a pain, having a fully buffed army that can also curse or add vampirism.
- Inferno is considered the underdog but frankly they seem ok to me. Once a few imbalances in the other factions are ironed out they are going to be great - Because fire + dark + prime is one hell of a combination. And earth can cover their defensive/healing issues nicely.
- Necropolis is the faction I have the least experience in. But am I glad they do not have fire magic. THANK YOU BLACK HOLE!
I have more than likely missed a few important bits but overall the system looks solid, all it needs is a little finetuning. And thankfully more skills/spells
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted August 21, 2011 02:33 PM |
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Nice writeup. 
I agree with most of it. I also think the difference between magic and might heroes are nicely defined. Might heroes can get powerful skills like Counterstrike III and Taunt, while Magic heroes can get equally powerful skills such as Petrification and Terror.
The system does indeed look very solid. The only think we need now(apart from balance) is racial skills.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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Nelgirith
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted August 21, 2011 02:41 PM |
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My main gripe with the skill system is that the difference between each faction is very minimal, likewise the difference between might & magic heroes and between tears and blood heroes is too poor.
Imo, Magic heroes should have the basic might trees and then have the magic trees with several Magic-only skills (not only the rank 3) and some racial skills in both trees. And vice and versa for Might heroes.
My second issue with the "tree" is that they aren't trees, they look more like a bush. People can just pick random skills all around as if they were in some self-service restaurant without caring. For example, I love Storm Arrows and it's one of the spells I always pick on any hero (might or magic and no matter what faction), but I pick no other Air spell, likewise I almost always pick Erosion (rank 2 - Earth) on might heroes without picking any other earth spell.
I would love to see real trees with some pre-requisites (be it a rank, a level, a Might/Mana value)
Lastly, my final gripe is with Heroic Strike being absolutely useless in late game. When you have so many abilities to use, buffs/debuffs to dispel, it's pretty much a no-brainer. Even in early games, I quite rarely find myself in a situation where using Heroic Strike is really interesting to use.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 21, 2011 04:21 PM |
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Quote:
My main gripe with the skill system is that the difference between each faction is very minimal, likewise the difference between might & magic heroes and between tears and blood heroes is too poor.
Imo, Magic heroes should have the basic might trees and then have the magic trees with several Magic-only skills (not only the rank 3) and some racial skills in both trees. And vice and versa for Might heroes.
My second issue with the "tree" is that they aren't trees, they look more like a bush. People can just pick random skills all around as if they were in some self-service restaurant without caring. For example, I love Storm Arrows and it's one of the spells I always pick on any hero (might or magic and no matter what faction), but I pick no other Air spell, likewise I almost always pick Erosion (rank 2 - Earth) on might heroes without picking any other earth spell.
I would love to see real trees with some pre-requisites (be it a rank, a level, a Might/Mana value)
This! 100 %. The whole way they magic schools are implemented is lame, because what does it even matter that one spell is Fire, another Water and a third Darkness, when you can just pick them at will? Sure, there is a lame +2 Power bonus from having the Magic School skill, but that doesn't really matter much in the end. The sense with Magic Schools were also that you had some skills which boost all spells within those schools en mass, and that's not really th case anymore, nor is it required to learn the spells. Lame.
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Destructive spells being influeced by hero level, they are not going to be worthless for might heroes as they used to, especially if they follow the blood path. They won't be anywhere close to magic hero potential but they will still have something to show, at least in creeping. Likewise light magic heroes may not be as specialized but their destructive can hurt.
Destructive spells being good with Might Heroes? That is NOT progression in my book, quite the opposite. In previous games, a Might hero delt damage through his army, Magic hero through his spells but less through his army. Hence, it made sense that buffs/debuffs were less spellpower dependant, because Might heroes needed those to raise his damage potential. On the other hand, Destructive spells and Summoning spells sucked for Might heroes as they should, because those delt with dealing damage on their own.
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What will happen now?
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 21, 2011 06:42 PM |
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Edited by e3772014 at 18:46, 21 Aug 2011.
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Nice, I just have one thing to add. At the moment there is no point at all to use fire destructive spells (fire bolt, fire ball, fire storm i just laughable) in either normal games or duels. The only damage spell I find that's actually worth it in the long run is poison storm-otherwise it's much better to pick something like healing, buffing, or disabling spells-even as inferno.
EDIT:
Oh, and retaliation aura is broken
Counterstrike is also...a little too good I think. There is no reason to not get it, even if you're blood. And if you're tears, being able to attack first, at a higher damage, while he's the one attacking you, is a little OP. Maybe an adjustment to retaliation damage can be made?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 21, 2011 06:51 PM |
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You are too stuck in your H5 ways Alci  This was the best thing that happened to spells since H3.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 21, 2011 07:27 PM |
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That entirely depends on your perspective. From what I read around the discussion threads, I'm far fron the only one who feel like that.
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What will happen now?
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 21, 2011 09:14 PM |
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Edited by JoonasTo at 21:46, 21 Aug 2011.
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Alci, alci, alci...
How more wrong could you be?
Remember how going might ALWAYS wins games in the end? It doesn't matter which Heroes game we are talking about. How choosing magic hero is always a wrong choice because in the end damage spells don't matter at all? And because might heroes get the same effects from (mass) buffs it makes no sense to pick a magic hero? For the first time in the series' history a mage might be a viable option for the late game!
Might heroes don't need the magic to buff up their troops, they can use the magic to slaughter the enemy en mass and laugh at their enemy while he uses his puny 30 spellpower to cast haste at the exact same effect that the 5 spellpower might hero does. Or laugh as the mage tries to kill his 15 titans with that 1000 damage implosion, sure they die, like 3 of them, the rest kill all of the mage's dragons next turn.
PS. Effect of spellpower needs to be boosted.
OH AND WHO THE snow WAS DOING THE LEVEL UP XP NEEDS? HUH? GET snowING REAL YOU snowS! DOUBLING YOUR XP AMOUNT FOR LEVEL 7? GO DIE IN A FIRE YOU snowTARDS!
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted August 21, 2011 10:10 PM |
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Quote:
Alci, alci, alci...
How more wrong could you be?
Remember how going might ALWAYS wins games in the end? It doesn't matter which Heroes game we are talking about.
I think you sort of misunderstand my point, I'm not against spell scaling being adjusted, but I don't think it's a good thing that Might heroes get better at destructive magic. If anything, that eradicates the one advantage that Magic heroes have.
So Might Heroes always win the game in the long run? Well I think versatile Heroes have the best chances in the long run. Yes, Destructive alone won't win you the game in the end, Destructive is a means to get there. In Heroes 5, you could do great creeping with Destructive/Summoning Magic, probably only matched by War Machines in the Might Department. Neither would win you the game in long games.
I think, just like your Might hero would better learn either Light or Dark Magic, your Magic hero would need to learn some might skills - Luck, Leadership, Attack or Defence - to survive in long games. Heroes 3 designers also understood this need for Heroes to be versatile in the long run, hence once heroes leveled beyond level 10, their skill destribution would move much closer to 25 % in each primary skill.
I guess Heroes 5 was pretty imbalanced in this aspect because it had a very extreme skill distribution, which ment that your Spellpower would sky-rocket as a Warlock, but your Attack/Defence stats would be absolutely abysmal. Obviously, once you hit month 3, you would be trampled by a suitably equipped Might hero.
But on the bottom line, I'm all for reconsidering how spell damage progresses, but taking away any scaling with skill mastery seems the perfect way NOT to make it work for Magic heroes in the long run.
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What will happen now?
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vicheron
Known Hero
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posted August 22, 2011 01:01 AM |
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The new system has gimped magic heroes even more.
The difference in spell effectiveness is not that huge. Might heroes can cast spells with about 80% of the effectiveness of Magic heroes.
Damaging spells are way too weak. Implosion only does around 540 damage by the time you can get it, 650 if you have all three levels of the prime magic boosting skill. Since all creatures get magic defense now, the damage is even less. Against core creatures, you're looking at about a 10% reduction, elites 25% reduction, and champions 45% reduction.
Investing in spell power skills are a waste since they only provide about a 6% or 7% bonus per skill and they only work for that specific school. Spending the point in the skill to add might power is a much better investment since it'll scale with the size of the army.
The split between might damage and magic damage isn't very helpful either. There are fewer creatures with magic damage so magic power and magic defense are just a lot less useful. Necropolis and Sanctuary are the only two factions with 3 magic damage dealing creatures, while all other factions only have 2.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted August 22, 2011 02:34 AM |
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To me it seems to be pretty well thought out, just not executed to its full potential yet.
What i would like to see is magic spells relying more on spell power (magic attack) than pure hero level. Same for Might abilities. Stats themselves look a bit bland now that their effect is marginal (compared to previous installments, not marginal overall).
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e3772014
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 22, 2011 03:31 AM |
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Quote:
The new system has gimped magic heroes even more.
The difference in spell effectiveness is not that huge. Might heroes can cast spells with about 80% of the effectiveness of Magic heroes.
Damaging spells are way too weak. Implosion only does around 540 damage by the time you can get it, 650 if you have all three levels of the prime magic boosting skill. Since all creatures get magic defense now, the damage is even less. Against core creatures, you're looking at about a 10% reduction, elites 25% reduction, and champions 45% reduction.
Investing in spell power skills are a waste since they only provide about a 6% or 7% bonus per skill and they only work for that specific school. Spending the point in the skill to add might power is a much better investment since it'll scale with the size of the army.
The split between might damage and magic damage isn't very helpful either. There are fewer creatures with magic damage so magic power and magic defense are just a lot less useful. Necropolis and Sanctuary are the only two factions with 3 magic damage dealing creatures, while all other factions only have 2.
This is exactly what I would write here if I weren't a lazy ass =P Good job!
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Fang
Hired Hero
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posted August 22, 2011 05:07 AM |
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By the way ELVIN, I tested and became a blood hero lvl 1, but my heroism ability lvl 1 didn't increase. Since heroism is in the blood school you said that if I became blood Hero my blood school abilities would increase also?
Unless all it does is let me get to heroism lvl 2? but you also said that I can get any ability regardless of which alignment.
So I'm a little confused ??
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted August 22, 2011 06:03 AM |
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I would like to know if there are any abilities/spells etc that are:
either
- completely useless (absolutely no need to pick them)
or
- a MUST (you cannot enter a battle without them)
*At this point I would be more interested for DUEL battles and not for full maps
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2011 07:15 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 07:17, 22 Aug 2011.
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@Fang
I wouldn't know, other abilities get a boost at lvl 1 reputation.
@Vangelis
This thread is not meant as a strategy/tactics/duel discussion, it is about ability system impressions.
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Vangelis21
Supreme Hero
Manchild
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posted August 22, 2011 08:26 AM |
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Quote:
@Fang
I wouldn't know, other abilities get a boost at lvl 1 reputation.
@Vangelis
This thread is not meant as a strategy/tactics/duel discussion, it is about ability system impressions.
I didn't ask for strategy or tactics. I asked which is a MUST ability (too good or maybe overpowered) and which is a useless one. That falls under the category of "abilities impressions" doesn't it...?
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Heroes VI is here and Necropolis is serious trouble!
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Oz
Adventuring Hero
Preparing
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posted August 22, 2011 09:51 AM |
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I'm not really questioning the ballance of the new system, cause there are far more qualified members to do hat here, but I'm rather disturbed by itself.
As someone pointed out, it's not even a proper ability tree.
When they told us the system will be based on WoW's talent trees, I was happy, and that'd really make you feel like your hero is the most important. Having fewer schools, but giving them much more depth. I thought we'd get different skill trees for each class. Each faction would have their own little niche in their trees, which could boost a unit's(from their faction) power, or even grant special abilities to them. For example an Engineer might hero from academy would get to plant scopes on gremlins' guns, and they'll get an abilitiy to shoot with no range penalty, then an upgrade on a much higher level would make the skill kill off atleast 1 creature.
Ofcourse, basic skills like the usual defense increasing armorer is available to everybody, maybe more attack oriented factions couldn't acces it's last level, or something.
I also see a problem with how might schools were made up. One makes your hero stronger directly, the other boosts your economy, then passive, then active, etc. While with spells we reverted to element based schools.
In H6 you aren't restricted in any way. We have no limit on how many schools we put points into. You just pick wathever you want, not like in H5 where you get what you get, and make the most out of it. Sure, you might be unlucky somtimes, but the better you feel when you actually get the skill you were going for. This accomplished feeling could've been implemented here too, with complex trees, or even a wheel, with hard to reach ultimate abilities, which goes with each faction's play, and visual style.
I really find this whole thing boring, while in WoW, I'm always anoxious to spend my points, and make my build. Here, I have just way too many choices, and somehow still less.
You don't have restrictions, aside from the rank 3 skills, the spell schools, and your own hero's abilities, you have nothing to make each class different. You will always go with the same build cause that's the most effective. As a might hero you don't have to limit your magic schools in favor of your might trees, and as a result a might hero will have slow from dark, regen from earth, inner fire, haste, and that's already for schools, while usually you only got to pick one/two as a might hero in the previous games.
I can live with the new system, but for me it's an even bigger gamebraker than lack of town windows, and this will only accomplish caring less about your hero, which is the exact opposite of what Ubihole wanted.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 22, 2011 10:53 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 10:56, 22 Aug 2011.
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Quote:
Destructive spells being influeced by hero level, they are not going to be worthless for might heroes as they used to, especially if they follow the blood path. They won't be anywhere close to magic hero potential but they will still have something to show, at least in creeping. Likewise light magic heroes may not be as specialized but their destructive can hurt.
All kinds of direct-damage spells are 95% useless even with a Magic hero and will be even more in a real game. We have the excellent opportunity to see what a level 30 Magic hero with all possible Spell Power boosts can do and it is far, far from impressive. I mean - Implosion dealing 1300-1400 damage, Fireball - 600-700, etc. If you are not playing on Fastest, by the time when you have level 30 hero, each Core stack will be measured in multiple hundreds, the Elites will probably nearly or above hundred and the Champions will be at least the equivalent of Horde. It's as an old rule that when you can't damage your opponent with direct damage spells quickly enough, you are better off casting crowd control or stats-boosting spells and this is now valid in every situation except the early 2-3 weeks of the game when the stacks are still small (and even then the attack of the hero deals almost as much damage as a spell). So I disagree, there is absolutely no balance in this regard, just both classes will very rarely use these spells - that is, only in marginal scenarios.
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And speaking of mass spells, I am so glad to see that they are weaker than their basic version. Not only is it more balanced but it feels good when you find a situation where casting the basic spell is actually a better deal.
Regarding the mass boosting/weakening spells that is good indeed but when Firebolt deals twice as much damage as Fireball no matter the level of the hero, then something is terribly wrong.
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Petrification, it may last less but can you deny the fun of having an invulnerable unit while you nuke your distressed enemies?
I would agree with this if you had the means to nuke the enemy, now they are simply non-existent. Even Inferno's Blood Magic hero ultimate which is supposed to be... well, ultimate, deals so little damage that it's totally pointless to choose this path, especially given that the Inferno Tear Magic hero has an excellent potential to be a pain (if only his army could survive long enough which however is a challenge against... well, most factions).
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And earth can cover their defensive/healing issues nicely.
Not even close unfortunately, you can't survive on mere Regeneration when Haven and Necropolis resurrect their troops in dozens even after a few week. Sanctuary does something similar but with a little twist and Stronghold - their enormous damage potential compensates for the lack of healing. And for the N-th time - it is just moronic to force certain factions to choose certain skills/spells only to remain relatively competitive. That's a handicap, pure and simple.
I more or less agree with the rest.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 22, 2011 02:08 PM |
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@Vangelis
@Oz
Yes I had similar expectations a long long time ago. With any luck the system will be revised in the future.
@Zeno
It's not that bad. For one there is less of an urgency to fling destructive after destructive spell on the opponent, secondly the heroes have no artifacts and third, this is a week 10 core, week 7 elite and week 6 champion army we are talking about. Do destructive need a boost? Yes they do. Are they 95% useless? Hardly. Right now, in duels their priority has shifted from early turns to endgame which is alright. After champions will be decreased(they'd better..) and destructive gets a little boost it is going to be fine.
Fireball does firebolt dmg in the center so it's kind of a situational spell. And yes, earth can cover inferno's indeficiencies, it's all a matter of timing. And combos 
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 22, 2011 03:00 PM |
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Since I haven't played 1.3 yet (350W power source would melt on anything other than Firefox and Word I'm afraid), my general impressions from previous versions are:
- The system is flexible, but it could take more skills and abilities
- We need faction unique skills and spells for more variety
- We could get specialty-like abilities that buff certain units only
- Blood/Tears imho should BOTH influence ALL abilities, just in a different way (for instance Blood buffs damage of fireball and tears adds a defense reducing effect to it).
- Most melee skills are not very impressive; as noted, +1 ATT is just +2,5% damage to non-magical creatures in your army, barely worth it... +att/def skills could use bigger numbers
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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