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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Healing spells are op?
Thread: Healing spells are op? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT»
BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2011 11:57 AM

Healing spells are op?

As of now healing spells are a must if one doesn't want to be losing creatures and become weaker end game.
I have a possible solution to this no brainer choice.
After every fight if there were losses and units were resurrected via healing, one should choose:

1. Lose the resurrected units.
2. Keep the resurrected units, but lose all remaining movement points for the turn (resting?).

This gives another strategic decision. Save more units and progressing faster in numbers, or lose some units but exploring faster.
This could also make the fights faster, and regeneration less needed.

What do you think?
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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2011 12:10 PM

Healing or support spells are of great importance because of the nature of the units in all factions (tier system). That means that there are longer turns, more casualties than with previous heroes editions where, after having access to high-level units you didn't lose a single unit without need of resurrection spells. For me it's normal to be able to creep without casualties (or very few) as it was possible with all other heroes games. Now, someone can "choose" not to use healing and build his hero for optimal endfight, going faster because he fights harder creeps, doesn't need replenish spell points, etc. He can compensate some losses by capturing a neutral town several days earlier maybe or an external dwelling, or more ressources that allow to build champion units, etc,...Just a question of choice and style
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted November 04, 2011 12:19 PM

Personally, I'd like to see a post-battle option for the victor of a combat to spend as many mana points and creature abilities (as far as they still remain) as the player likes, to resurrect fallen units.

In previous HoMM incarnations, you didn't have cooldowns on spells, so that's a limitation in its own right. Creatures that can heal can only do so up to twice in any given combat. I don't think it's overpowered, in that sense.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted November 04, 2011 12:20 PM

This will make the work of the factions which have healers in their line-up even easier as they are currently the only ones which can afford NOT to pick healing spells and still reduce the attrition to a minimum. If you apply the same rule to the healing creatures on the other hand, their factions will be crippled. This can hardly be applied to Necromancy as well without resulting in a balance mess.
The problem is different. The introduction of this whole "early resurrection" concept artificially divides the factions into "healing" ones and "non-healing" ones and the first group has a major advantage during the early game. Right now Inferno and Stronghold have to catch up with Haven, Necropolis and Sanctuary. I myself am sick of the whole thing but there's no way to re-work it any more. So other balancing solutions are needed.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted November 04, 2011 12:24 PM

Healing & Non-healing: Heroes 6

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Fauch
Fauch


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
posted November 04, 2011 12:39 PM

sounds like it could be a "first aid" skill. a non-magical one, available to anyone.

it's a new and interesting idea. good if you screw up a fight. but the amount of movement points lost should be proportionnal to the amount of units resurrected. otherwise you could start a fight with your last remaining movement point and still resurrect losses.

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DoubleDeck
DoubleDeck


Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
posted November 04, 2011 12:53 PM

To be honest healing/regen spells are fine as they are with the cooldowns, it's the faction creatures that makes it unfair.

Either, haven/naga/necro should not have chicks with healing abilities, or Inferno and Orcs' chicks should also have healing abilities....

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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2011 01:34 PM

I don't understand the problem. Every faction has access to some healing. To creep effectively you need to heal only in rare occasions and if that happens only a few units. Maybe a problem to some might heroes. I think of barbarians lv1 with only 10 mana. No spells here, they need reinforcements, tactics, avoid fight, give troops to secondary shaman, fight with few losses or ...adapt. The key is adapt to the map. Go to important places first. Don't lose time with some trivial fights that a secondary can do as well. Do important stuff, that gets you ahead of opponent. You need "always" several heroes if possible! No problem to lose some units if at the end of the week you begin building cyclops with maybe a fortification lv1. Just very general feeling but I have played all factions equally and all are very competitive vs the map. I should say just that the game is just too easy as it is compared to previous versions (specifically H3). Healing is just part of the game but not a forced one. A lv 15 tear barbarian with 1 cyclop can kill an incredible amount of troops with just intimidation. It can make a very big difference in the end fights the sacrifice of healing abilities to harvest points for lv 15 (add counterstrike 3 for ex : 3pts) while the secondaries can have healing if they want .
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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted November 04, 2011 01:56 PM

Are you sure that you are not crafting theories here? Intimidation is a skill which requires lvl 15 hero, no way to get that far during the first few weeks, except on "Fastest" - which is plain daft level up mechanism.
The healing spells are no longer as powerful as they used to be during the beta but the healing creatures remain a problem. It's not about attacking the weak neutrals which every hero can beat easily without healing - it's about going for the major sites faster than the ones who don't have that commodity due to lower losses in the long run/higher survivability during tough battles.

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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2011 02:10 PM
Edited by BlazeHun at 14:16, 04 Nov 2011.

Quote:
If you apply the same rule to the healing creatures on the other hand, their factions will be crippled.


They won't be crippled, if it's balanced.

What do you think of this:
They don't lose all movement points in the same turn, instead start next turn with somewhat less movement.

Stronghold can get more movement points by fighting and thus risking losing some units. Healing factions can resurrect so losing movement is obvious.
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avalon00x
avalon00x


Bad-mannered
Known Hero
posted November 04, 2011 02:25 PM

Quote:
Quote:
If you apply the same rule to the healing creatures on the other hand, their factions will be crippled.


They won't be crippled, if it's balanced.

What do you think of this:
They don't lose all movement points in the same turn, instead start next turn with somewhat less movement.

Stronghold can get more movement points by fighting and thus risking losing some units. Healing factions can resurrect so losing movement is obvious.


actually no. if stronghold can get more movement points by fighting and thus risking losing some units. and healing factions can resurrect so all that is obvious is that they DONT get extra movement, wich already results in having less movement as Stronghold i dont see a need to punnish them further, is there?

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pacifist
pacifist


Famous Hero
posted November 04, 2011 02:27 PM

Well maybe I craft a little because the subject is very wide and not everything applies to everything. This is just feeling after my experience so far of the game. I cannot say that I have easier to expand with haven, necro or sanctuary than inferno and stronghold. It's simply not the case. Inferno's lilims are as overpowered as pearl priestresses or vestals. The synergy of stronghold troops is simply amazing from tier1 to tier 3. No need of healing when you know that the jaguars will be the main target and reinforced jaguars hold much ground, assisted by the rest of the army. The furies are not even needed, regular harpies are also incredible damage dealers behind the jaguars or in earlier stages of tier 1 units. It's all to the players' skills to use the right configuration in each case (tactics skill very important).

In campaigns I don't take enlightment because of the level cap but it's a must in skirmish maps, and worth sacrifice a healing spell because we also need logistics. So level 15 is relatively quick in a map like broken alliance on normal difficulty in 2 or 3 weeks max. Other maps of course not, it depends. But the example of intimidation is for endgame fight between 2 human players where you will have better things to do han heal your troops from massive damage.
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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2011 02:44 PM

Quote:
actually no. if stronghold can get more movement points by fighting and thus risking losing some units. and healing factions can resurrect so all that is obvious is that they DONT get extra movement, wich already results in having less movement as Stronghold i dont see a need to punnish them further, is there?


Exactly. This is the question: Are healer factions overpowered?
I don't have enough pvp experience to answer this, but it feels like, those factions have advantage early game so I came up this idea of balance. I can be wrong
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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Cave Moose
posted November 04, 2011 03:42 PM
Edited by blizzardboy at 16:00, 04 Nov 2011.

I haven't played the Inferno campaign yet. As for Stronghold, they have no limitations with creeping whatsoever except in the very beginning game. They have a wide arsenal of useful units for creeping:

-For goblins you have the light ranged attack, and perhaps more importantly, you have the trap ability to delay a melee unit for a turn. And of course you can have multiple stacks for multiple traps.  

-Un-upgraded harpies aren't very useful, but once you hit the upgrade and you have the no retaliation they're another highly valuable unit for creeping. They have some impressive damage output.

-Centaurs are a ranged unit that are obviously good.

-Dreamwalkers you have the earth ability to damage / slow down enemy units. You get the upgrade you get the mass earth ability, which is just awesome. The air ability can also come in handy, especially with your harpies.

-Even Jaguar Warriors and Cyclopes have some use, as both of them get a special no-retaliation ability that they can use to start, just in case you need it.

All said and done, I found their creeping power to be every bit as impressive as Haven's is. The dreamwealkers are just as valuable for creeping as sisters and pearl priestesses are. For early game if you can just get some goblins and some upgraded harpies, you've got a decent creeping force. As for healing, you can always take heal / regen / life drain, but once you get your momentum going your casualties are going to be reasonably minimal either way.
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Nocturnal
Nocturnal


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted November 04, 2011 03:54 PM

First of all, the title of the tread is irrelevant to the masterpost. It would be good if you told us why you think Healing spells are OP. Anyway, the suggestion you have made seems like it would damage the strategic value of the game highly as losing one turn's move points is nothing compared to resurrecting all of your fallen ones. There would be no person to say "no I want to walk some more steps, let them all die" I also do not thing resurrection spells are overpowered, not counting Necropolis's racial ability as a Healing spell. Vestals have the most strong one but they only have 2 charges of it. Hero's Healing and Mass Healing is not that strong to be of vital use in a big match. And Regeneration in this game is a little useless. It was overpowered in H5 and now it is underpowered.

Quote:
I don't understand the problem. Every faction has access to some healing.


Inferno and Stronghold do not. Light magic does harm to them and Regeneration is a very slow spell especially with a Magic Hero.


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blizzardboy
blizzardboy


Honorable
Legendary Hero
Cave Moose
posted November 04, 2011 03:56 PM

You can cast Heal on your Stronghold units. The Sister's ability is different from the hero's heal spell.
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kodial79
kodial79


Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
posted November 04, 2011 04:09 PM

Quote:
You can cast Heal on your Stronghold units. The Sister's ability is different from the hero's heal spell.


My first skill point as a Stronghold Might Hero was spent on Heal. Who knew?
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BlazeHun
BlazeHun


Adventuring Hero
posted November 04, 2011 04:44 PM

So Stronghold can creep without losses, without using healing spells, thanks to the unit abilities.
What about Inferno? They have alternative early game tactics to avoid unnecessary losses?
My master post is valid as long as healing is a must have, and not just a good option.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted November 04, 2011 05:06 PM

I think the access to resurrection in Heroes 6 is far too widespread. I'm not sure Healing spells are actually OP since they made the cooldown longer, but it just seems like incredibly poor game construction that you have such a powerful spell available from level 1, and then you have to add so severe restrictions to prevent it from breaking the game (which it did in the early demos).
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What will happen now?

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forest001
forest001


Known Hero
posted November 04, 2011 05:15 PM

well, on the other hand you can have healing spells that do not resurrect, but then they become useless

alternatively you could have resurrection as lvl15 spell but then there is good chance your army is big enough that they become useless again.

this is really hard o balance, and i think i don't mind it right now as it enables decent creeping for every faction which is good imho.

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