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| Thread: Hobo's H7 Proposal |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 02:01 PM |
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Edited by hobo2 at 16:16, 22 Jan 2012.
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Hobo's H7 Proposal
Hobo's Heroes VII Proposal
First of all: I am not going to bore you with my hypothetical world history. I believe that stuff should be written later on, because a majority of the players cannot tell you what the world that any particular Heroes game takes place in is formally called. Even fewer could tell you what the sequence of events in the timeline are that aren't actually played out in the scenarios. The game is first and foremost a game. Meaning that yes, user interface is more important than than world backstory.
Heroes VII would be a game. But more than that, it would be a sequel to many other good games.So it needs to justify itself not only to new players, but also to long time fans who have the option of simply playing Heroes III or King's Bounty Crossworlds again. As a sequel it needs to be able to say honestly that it is an improvement on other games in the series. This means making innovations on the established product line. Unfortunately, the two games which innovated the most (Heroes IV and VI) are also the worst. This is because a badly implemented change is considerably worse than no change at all. Thus, the first things to do are to assess what went wrong in IV and VI and adjust those innovations to work better or drop them entirely.
Heroes IV Response:
Heroes IV offered us the chance to have our heroes personally stride into battle and stab things, something Heroes players had been asking to do for years. Unfortunately, while that was very cool, it also did not scale particularly well. By the late game, high level heroes were dying left and right to even long range attacks through cover by secondary archery units. The game's answer to that problem was resurrection potions, where the heroes would be able to drink up to get extra lives, and then they were dying and getting back up constantly throughout major confrontations. It was embarrassing. The solution to this dilemma is to allow heroes to deploy either in combat like a Heroes IV hero, or as a hilltop general as in every other Heroes game. This way, if it turns out that heroes are insufficiently survivable in combat at any stage of the game, savvy players can simply deploy them in general mode and there's no problem.
The second major issue with Heroes IV is that the branching town trees forced empire-wide specialization. And in far too many cases created explicitly right and wrong choices. Genies were simply better than Naga, so building a Golden Pavilion was objectively screwing you over. The solution here is to make it so that you only need to make one building at each level, but you still can make the other building once you've built one.
The third major issue with Heroes IV is the skill tree: it takes one hundred skill points to reach the top. That is insane, and for almost all of the game it made all the heroes feel small in the pants by having a smattering of "basics" on their character sheet. The solution to that is simply to go to a setup where skills only have three levels and you can actually master things. Note: Heroes VI actually did that and has different problems.
Heroes VI Response:
Heroes VI has essentially four issues. The first is the lack of a meaningful resource system. The first tier response is that the other games in the series really did work fine. You don't need four special resources, but you do need at least two.
The second issue is the incredibly bland tactical landscape. Every faction has a unit that can shoot across the table at no penalty. Every unit can engage any other in three turns, even if they are "slow". And no unit can cross the board in a single turn. That is terrible. The solution is to go back to a simple Rock-Paper-Scissors model in which fact creatures can engage archers quickly, slow creatures are stuck for several turns in archers' optimal range, and slow creatures are tougher relative to fast creatures and can plausibly intercept them.
The third issue is the "loss prevention" issue. This comes in two parts. The first is that every unit you ever make will be in your final army and thus every unit you ever lose under any circumstances will reduce your final army - necessitating reducing losses to zero in almost all battles. The second part is that healsurrection is so effective both at preventing losses and in securing victory in individual battles that you don't need to do anything else. This has been something of a problem in all versions of HoMM and KB, though it is by far the most pronounced in Heroes VI. The solution actually has to come on several levels. You have to have access to troops that won't go in your final army, thereby allowing you to take losses as part of normal strategies and have that be a not-stupid thing to do. Implementation of that is to institute Leadership caps for individual armies (like in King's Bounty) as well as having cities produce more types of units than actually fit in an individual army.
And the fourth major issue is the skill system. In contrast to Heroes 4, it's trivially easy to get all the skills you care about. And the skills you get are not much different for heroes of different factions or specialties. The solution is to make there be more viable "builds", and also to give lists of semi-random skills to choose from, and also to make there be a lot more skills that are rare or even banned for heroes of different types.
The Cities
Heroes fans love eclectic groupings. They love eclectic armies of monsters, they love eclectic groupings of factions. Every time a new edition of the game adds more factions and more creatures, the fans are happy. Every time a new edition of the game takes factions away or makes there be less creatures in some way, the fans are unhappy. So it goes without saying that the number of creatures per faction in Heroes VII must be more than in previous editions. It equally goes without saying that there must be more total factions than there have been in previous versions.
The first part comes in two parts. The easy part is where each city has eight troop creation buildings. The slightly more complicated part is where upgraded versions of troops are generated separately in each city and have a higher leadership cost. In this way, the Dwarvish Miner is a basic troop, and the more powerful and expensive Dwarvish Sapper comes out of the same building, but you can rationally have both in your army because Sappers and Miners don't eat out of the same recruitment pool or count against the same Leadership limit. In this way, even though there are only 8 creature buildings, there really are fifteen monsters in each faction that you could plausibly decide to use in the final battle.
First, the cities themselves. Each city has a primary race. That is the race shown walking around in the town screen, and accounts for most of the heroes from that faction. Also, each faction will have at least 2 basic units (and their upgrades, for a total of 4) drawn from that race.
Quote:
Traditional Factions
Stronghold - Orcs
Bastion - Elves (AKA: Preserve, Rampart, Sylvan, Sorceress)
Haven - Humans
Necropolis - Humans
Dungeon - Troglodytes
Inferno - Imps
Fortress - Lizards
New Factions With Traditional Races
Bazaar - Gnomes
Forge - Dwarves
Hideout - Gnolls
New Races With Traditional Factions
Sanctuary - Nezumi (Rat People)
Asylum - Mi Go (Bug People)
Buildings
What is a city without the buildings in it? The key change here is that you do not upgrade individual troop dwellings. You build troop dwellings, and if you have a sufficiently upgraded castle, those troop dwellings also produce upgraded troops. Troops (and dwellings) come in four levels, and castle come in 3 levels (fort, citadel, castle). If you have a castle that is at least the level of the dwelling, your dwelling produces both normal and upgraded troops. Note that there are therefore no upgrades for fourth level monsters - they are already as elite as it gets. In order to build the higher levels of Hall, you need at least one dwelling of that level and another building. You need a Tavern and a level 1 Dwelling before you can make a Town Hall, you need a Marketplace and a level 2 Dwelling before you can make a City Hall, and you need a Library and a level 3 Dwelling before you can make the Capitol. What this means is that no power on Earth can get you from a standing start to a Capitol in the first week. There are 8 buildings that you need to have before the Capitol becomes buildable, and thus no matter what kind of resource windfall you start with, the Capitol is not going up before day 9. Hall upgrades make more money and also increase creature growth.
There are in total 21 buildings you can make (not counting the Grail Building). 8 Dwellings, 3 Hall upgrades, 3 Fort upgrades, 1 Tavern, 1 Marketplace, 1 Library, and 4 special buildings. Of those special buildings, one is a "defense" building, one is an "economic" building, one is an "intelligence" building, and the last one is an uncategorized special building. The defensive structure requires a Castle, the economic building requires a marketplace, the intelligence building requires a library, and the unique building requires a City Hall. since you can only build one Capitol, once you've built one, you have the option to build Governor's Mansions in your other cities. These increase the leadership of all your heroes and cause the city to start producing a small amount of extra troops from your national faction. In this way, conquering cities of other factions will always be useful to you even if you intend to field a whole army of your own empire's troops.
Leadership
One of the most important considerations in this version of Heroes VII is Leadership. It works just like in King's Bounty: your hero can only lead a certain number of troops of each type. This means that in the late game, conjuration magic never goes obsolete. Firstly, because the number of Fire Elementals you summon is based on your Leadership total, and secondly because the sizes of stacks don't keep scaling upwards indefinitely. that means that playtesters can honestly compare a casting of Precision to a casting of Fire Bolt, because the number of Marksmen on each side is a predictable quantity.
But the most important part of this is to make taking losses acceptable and thus make bloody casualty-heavy strategies viable. Simply put: there are more troops available to hire than you have leadership to lead them. So you can make secondary armies or replace losses and have that be reasonable. Leadership values start with enough that you can lead one or two level four creatures. They rise with level, but slowly. You can also raise them on the map by visiting different rally flags. And building up other cities raises the leadership of all of your heroes. In this way, late in the game your armies are larger, but low level heroes are still a threat.
Troops
Taking a leaf from Warlords 2, every single unit has a color changing texture section that matches the color of the team. So Haven soldiers have tabbards on that are green if you are the green team, or purple if you are the purple team. Even monsters have either pieces of cloth tied to them or simply color changing eyeballs or something. Every unit is discernible to be from one team or the other without having to remember which side of the board they started on.
Factions that are recognizably human-derived have multiple male and female units. So the Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, Undead, and Demons all have girls and boys in their ranks. The Lizards and Bugs don't get bother to distinguish the sex of enough of their units for this to be an issue.
Factions
An important note about the factions is that none of them are fully homogenous. The thing in Heroes VI where entire skill trees don't do anything at all if your opponent picked one faction over the other is not acceptable. Not only are there Necropolis units who aren't immune to mind attacks because they aren't mindless, there are Necropolis units who are not even undead.
Asylum
The newest of the new faction concepts. The Asylum combines Inuit mythology with Lovecraftian Mythos for its theme. They are an insectile people, of the kind who have appeared in almost every Might and Magic game under a wide variety of names. From the hostile bee people of Might and Magic I to the hostile Wasp People of Might and Magic VIII, they've always been there, but rarely with a repeated name. The Asylum's favored terrain is snow.
Tactically, the Asylum units do not use ranged attacks, having instead access to numerous support units.
Level 1:
* Wasp Workers (Wasp Warriors) - Hive
- Your basic troops are a fast flying skirmisher. The Workers have the ability to disassemble a trap, web, or other hazard. The Warriors are venomous and have a chance of poisoning their target.
* Formless Spawn (Shoggoth) - Cyclopean Pillars
- The Formless Spawn is move 4, but can't run. It's tougher than the Wasps, so it is a Bruiser by default. Debuffs on the Formless Spawn all vanish at the end of its turn. The Shoggoth has the ability to steal positive effects from enemies it strikes.
* Locust (Byakhee)
- Another fast moving skirmisher. This one is vulnerable to fire and resistant to physical attacks.
Level 2:
* Yeti (Wendigo) - Bone Littered Cave
- The Yeti is a cold resistant bruiser.
* Sorcerer (Angakok)
- A support monster that can cast Sorrow or summon Locusts or Formless Spawn. The Angakok can cast Terror and can summon Shoggoths or Byakhee.
Level 3:
* Chimera (Tungalik) - Ward of flayed Skin
- The Chimera is a hodgepodge of animal parts. It flies, though not very fast. The big selling point is that when it attacks, it also attacks any enemies to the left and right of its nominal target and only risks counterattack from the primary victim. The original Greek Chimera was a mix of goat, lion, and snake. But the Inuit Chimera (Tungalik) is a mix of walrus, moose, eagle, and wolf. The latter is in use here.
* Hive Mother (Hive Queen)
- The Hive Mother is very slow. Move 2 and no running. Every third turn, she can make a stack of Wasp Workers. The Hive Queen makes stacks of Workers or Warriors, which both have a cooldown of 5 instead of 3. This allows her to make Warriors on turn one, Workers on turn two, and then start again on turn 5.
Level 4:
* Star Spawn
- It's a winged monster with squid tentacles coming out of its face. The Star Spawn begins the battle Invisible. Its attacks Stun all adjacent enemies. Enemies that attack the Star Spawn have a chance of being hit by Terror.
Bastion
 
 
The Bastion is the Elf city that has appeared in every game of the series (except pre-expansion VI). None of the names it has been saddled with have been particularly good, which is why it has had its name changed in every game. Their favored terrain is Grass. Thematically, you have the basic Tree City that was seen even in the original King's Bounty.
Tactically, the Bastion forces have a lot of ways to slow down enemies. Satyrs put enemies to sleep, Dryads and druids make brambles, and so on. This synergizes with no-retaliation Pixies and their higher level archery units.
Level 1:
* Satyr (Pan) - Hidden Grove
- The Satyr is a support unit for the most part. Every three turns it can play a Sleep Song. It can also "enrage" to get additional attack at the cost of defense. The Pan can also lay down Mirth at will.
* Elven Warrior (Elven Werewolf)
- Elven warriors are a slightly fragile bruiser unit. Elf werewolves can change into wolves or back again once per round. Their elf form has more defense, and their wolf form has a move of 5. In either case, they regenerate.
* Pixie (Sprite) - Garden of Life
- The Pixie is a skirmisher that is very fragile but does not allow retaliation. The Sprite is bigger, and has a Strike and Return ability it can activate every other turn.
Level 2:
* Huntress (Ranger)
- The huntress is a move 3 archery unit. It does bonus damage to beasts (wolves, spiders, snakes, etc.). The Ranger does additional bonus damage when injured in addition to the hunting bonus.
* Dryad (Nymph) - Mother Oak
- The Dryad can lay down Entanglement, which is difficult terrain that does small amounts of damage. Dryads begin the battle Invisible, and can become Invisible again. Dryads come equipped with Unearthly Beauty. The Nymph also has Sleep Song.
Level 3:
* Druid (Grand Druid) - Circle of Stones
- Druids are a support unit. They have access to healing and can make Entanglement. They also have a small magical ranged attack to fall back on. The Grand Druid does more damage and also raises the morale of all plant creatures (Tree Lords, Dryads, Carnivorous Plants, etc.).
* White Unicorn (Black Unicorn)
- Unicorns are moderately fast (speed 5) and fairly tough. They dispel negative effects on themselves automatically at the end of their turn. They can dispel negative effects on allies as well with an action. Once per battle, the unicorn can heal all adjacent allies. The black unicorn has higher combat stats and leadership requirements and the has a chance to blind stacks it hits.
Level 4:
* Tree Lord
- The tree lord is implacable and does not have its (admittedly small) movement stopped by traps or webs or moats. The tree lord can tear down obstacles. And any creature the tree lord strikes is also subject to entanglement in their hex.
Bazaar
 
The Bazaar is closest to the Tower/Wizard/Academy, and focuses on Persian and Arabic motifs. The people here are Gnomes, one of the five original playable Might & Magic races. Their favored terrain is Wastes. The Bazaar's special building is the Night Market - like the Heroes VI Artifacts Merchant.
Tactically, the Bazaar lacks bruisers. Almost everything in the Bazaar flies and those that don't are ranged strikers. Many units in the army are spellcasters, giving them additional abilities that they can use a limited number of times.
Level 1:
* Winged Dog (Senmurv)
* Bird Maiden (Spenta)
* Gnome (Illusionist) -
- Gnomes shoot lightning bolts. Illusionists can do that too, but they can also cast Invisibility and Phantoms.
Level 2:
* Manticore (Scorpicore) - Spire of Riddles
* Magi (Archmagi) - Mage Tower
Level 3:
* Roc (Vulture Roc) - Sky Port
* Genie (Master Genie) - Altar of Wishes
Level 4:
* Phoenix - Eternal Pyre
Dungeon
The Dungeon is a heavily Grecian-inspired faction. The city is depicted in the town screen as a cavern with Corinthian columns holding up the ceiling. The buildings look like classical Greek buildings, and the troops are armed in a Trojan war sort of way. The man on the street is a blind troglodyte (like from Heroes 3 or 4 or Might and Magic VII), but the leaders (and many of the heroes) are Medusa and Minotaurs.
Tactically, the Dungeon is diverse. It has access to skirmishers, bruisers, and archers.
Level 1:
* Troglodyte (Troglodyte Hoplite) - Troglodyte Warrens
- The Troglodyte is Blind and is otherwise a basic bruiser. The Troglodyte Hoplite has First Strike and heavy armor that makes it slower but have physical damage resistance.
* Evil Eye (Beholder) - Pillar of Eyes
- The Evil Eye shoots beams from its big eye. It's an archer whose attacks have a chance of making the target paralyzed for a turn. The Beholder has the ability to hit the target with Paralyze, Confuse, or Fear.
* Harpy (Fury) - Column Capital Caves
- The Harpy is a no-retaliation flyer, with the ability to strike and return every other turn. So the normal version is like a bigger, less numerous upgraded Pixie. The Fury is like that but it comes in even smaller numbers and it "harasses" targets, causing them to lose a movement point and some attack skill next turn.
Level 2:
* Granite Gargoyle (Obsidian Gargoyle) - Statuary Garden
- Gargoyles are flying and inanimate. They also benefit from Stone Skin all the time. Gargoyles regenerate.
* Troglodyte Oracle (Troglodyte Sybil) - Temple of Prophecy
Level 3:
* Medusa (Medusa Peltast) - Hall of Stilled Voices
* Minotaur (Minotaur Myrmidon) - Labyrinth
Level 4:
* Hydra - Crevasse
Forge
The Forge is basically the Dwarven town from King's Bounty Armored Princess. They make things out of metal and have advanced steampunk technology.
Tactically, Dwarves are slow. They tend towards bruisers and have limited access to ranged attacks and no access to skirmishers. Their big trick is that their lifeless units can be "repaired" by many of their units, which is
Level 1:
* Dwarf Miner (Dwarf Sapper) - Guild Hall
* Repair Droid (Guard Droid) - Gear Factory
* Kobold (Kobold Scrounger) - Scrap Heap
Level 2:
* Iron Golem (Steel Golem) - Golem Works
* Dwarf Alchemist (Dwarf Engineer) - Laboratory
Level 3:
* Cannon (Artillery) - Bell Tower
* Cyclops Hammerer (Cyclops Thunderer) - Lightning Anvil
Level 4:
* Iron Dragon
Fortress
A mixture of meso-american motifs, and straight dinosaurs, the Fortress is a swamp city full of lizards. They are ancient and uncivilized, and they don't work metal. Lizardfolk show up to battle with macuahuitls and auxiliaries of dinosaurs and swamp monsters.
Tactically, the Fortress has a good mix of low level Archers, Skirmishers, and Bruisers. But their higher level troops are all skirmishers and bruisers, leaving them archery light in the late game.
Level 1:
* Lizard Archer (Lizard Warrior)
- The Lizard Archer is an archery unit, it has relatively high defense considering.
* Carnivorous Plant (Mouther) - Root Pond
- It's a slow Bruiser. The Carnivorous Plant cannot even run and it has a move of 2. However, it also gets to "set", which makes it attack out of turn the first time an enemy moves adjacent to them. The Mouther is also venomous, and has a chance of poisoning its victims.
* Serpent Fly (Fire Fly) -
- A fast-attack skirmisher. The Fire Fly is similar, but it does fire damage instead of poison damage.
Level 2:
* Cockatrice (Basilisk)
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* Terrordactyl (Terrorsaur)
-
Level 3:
* Jaguar Warrior (Panther Warrior) - Smoking Mirror
- It's a Lizard in a jaguar pelt carrying a macuahuitl. Like the heroes Wystan and Broghild from HoMM3. Functionally pretty similar to the Orcish jaguar warrior in Heroes VI, it has a special Pounce attack that crosses the board and allows no retaliation. It's a skirmisher. The Panther Warrior is more of the same, but it starts the battle Invisible.
* Jawsodon (Tyrantosaur)
- The Jawsodon is a big bruiser. Its attack causes a general debuff of "jagged woulds". The Tyrantosaur has bigger numbers and also has a fear inducing "roar" it can use once per battle.
Level 4:
* Couatl - Temple of the Sun
- The Couatl flies, is venomous, has a "snake strike" that negates counter attacks, and makes it rain in all adjacent hexes. The rain penalizes ranged attacks that start in or go through it.
Haven
The standard human castle troops. They have been with us in every incarnation of the game, including all the King's Bounty games. They have human forces and good steel, but they also have heraldic monsters - the mighty Griffin and Wyvern.
Tactically, the Haven begins life with a mix of archers, bruisers, and skirmishers. At higher levels, it's all bruisers and skirmishers. The Haven has the advantage of having good access to healing and resurrection. Archer: 2, Bruiser: 4, Skirmish: 6, Support: 2
Level 1:
* Archer (Marksman)
- The classic basic archery unit. When upgraded, it ignores cover. Once per battle can shoot "fire bolts" from the crossbow that do fire damage.
* Footman (Pikeman)
- A basic Move 3 bruiser. On the fragile side, but it is cheap. The Pikeman counterattacks before it is attacked and can "Set" - a move that ends its turn but interrupts and attacks the first enemy that moves into an adjacent hex before the Pikeman gets their next turn.
* Vestal (Priestess)
- A support unit. The Vestal has two Heals per battle and once per battle she can lay down a "Holy Aura" defense buff. The Priestess gets one Resurrect and once per battle can lay down a "Bless" offense buff. The Priestess is a ranged attacker, but the Vestal is not.
Level 2:
* Swordsman (Knight)
- A slow and resilient bruiser. Swordsmen and Knights do not have Running (they have heavy armor). This means that the Swordsman's speed of 3 is quite slow and the Knight's speed of 2 is very slow. However, they have heavy armor and a general toughness that is more similar to a level 3 creature.
* Griffin (Royal Griffin)
- A rapid skirmisher. The griffin moves quickly and has unlimited counter attacks. The Royal Griffin is tougher and provides a morale boost to human troops in the army.
Level 3:
* Horseman (Paladin)
- The horseman is a mounted knight. Quite fast and deals additional damage for the number of hexes the horseman is able to charge before striking. The Paladin upgrade is the same concept except that they have a Healing Aura that they can activate to heal themselves and every adjacent living friendly unit.
* Wyvern (Royal Wyvern)
- A higher level flying skirmisher. The Wyvern inflicts additional Poisoning and has a "snake strike" attack that it can use every other turn that does less damage than a normal attack but does not allow retaliation (and it poisons). The Royal Wyvern is the same thing with bigger stats that gives a morale boost to friendly human troops.
Level 4:
* Angel
- It flies. It casts resurrection once per battle. It has blinding beauty. It itself is blind. The damage it does in melee is half physical, half fire. It looks like a Justice Angel - a blindfolded woman with wings, a flaming sword, and a set of scales.
Hideout
The Hideout is a North African faction of Gnolls. Gnolls are hyena people who mount armies of cutthroats and thieves. Their favored terrain is wastes. Their buildings are mostly Egyptian in theme, and the town screen is shown with a river dividing it.
Tactically, most units of the Hideout are skirmishers or very fragile bruisers. They are numerous, grow quickly, and are cheap. Further, the Hideout has a lot of ways to extract money from combats, which in turn allows them to replace their losses with new hires. You have access to a number of undead units, but you have enough living troops that you don't have to field any of them.
Level 1:
* Gnoll Bandit (Gnoll Marauder)
- The Gnoll Bandit is slow (move 2, but can run). The Marauder is tougher and faster. If you have Bandits or Marauders in your army, you gain a number of gold equal to the number of bandits or enemies (whichever is less) if you win a fight.
* Serpent (Shadow Cobra)
- Every other turn, Serpents can make a "snake strike" that does not allow retaliation. Serpents and Shadow Cobras cannot run, and have a move of 3. Their attacks have a chance of poisoning the target. Shadow Cobras begin the battle Invisible.
* Spider (Venomous Spider)
- Spiders can lay down webbing in a hex instead of attacking to end their turn. If the webbed hex has an enemy in it, that enemy is webbed. Webs stop movement and give a defensive penalty. Venomous Spiders also have a chance of poisoning targets they attack.
Level 2:
* Assassin (Death Adept)
- Assassins are basically bruisers. They have a chance of poisoning targets and their attacks don't allow retaliation. They have Back Stab, which allows them to do double damage if they are attacking their enemy in the rear facing, and Killer, which causes targets they drop to die instead of becoming casualties (no healing, only resurrection). Death Adepts also have Ambush, which allows them to teleport behind an enemy whose rear hex is unoccupied to attack them.
* Ghost Pirate (Black Corsair)
- They are incorporeal and can move through solid objects. Ghost Pirates also count as two Bandits each for digging up treasure at the end of battles. Black Corsairs cause fear and don't allow retaliation.
Level 3:
* Gorgon (Catoblepas)
- A bruiser with a Death Gaze. On top of doing decent damage, each Gorgon has a chance to kill a unit in the target stack outright. The Catoblepas is just tougher.
* Mummy (Mummy Pharaoh)
- It's an undead support unit that has a couple of debuffs to choose from. The Pharaoh also can unleash a small collection of "plagues" that are area debuffs.
Level 4:
* Ammut
- The Ammut has a special Devour attack, which shifts all the casualties of a stack it attacks to dead.
Inferno
The Inferno undergoes an almost complete overhaul of its units in every game. And yet, it is still incredibly easy to recognize from edition to edition because it's always "a pile of demons". Which demons that actually is varies, but the core theme is very recognizable whether Pit Fiends or Arch Devils are the top unit. The favored terrain is lava. The city itself is a big crater filled with fire jets and it has metal hooks and chains everywhere.
Tactically you have a mix of archers and bruisers. Most of your units are Kreegans, which means that they are repulsed by certain water magic. But your cultists and Rakshasi are not, so if you wanted to go to battle with an army that was mostly not harmed by holy aura, you could just do that. Archer: 2, Bruisers: 5, Skirmishers: 2, Support: 5.
Level 1:
* Imp (Taunting Imp)
- Imps reduce the mana cost of Hero spellcasting and have a high initiative. But they are not very strong or fast. Taunting Imps have the ability to Taunt an enemy that hasn't gone yet, causing them to move directly towards the Imp out of turn (and attack in melee if they have the movement for it), using up the victim's turn. They can do this every other turn.
* Gog (Magog)
- Gogs and Magogs are simple ranged attackers that do fire damage. The Magog has the option to throw an AoE fireball every other turn.
* Cultist (Demonologist)
- The Cultists are actually just a palette swap of the Vestals of the Haven. They are a support unit that can lay down Blood Pacts, a buff that increases the attack and defense of a demon and the Cultist, and then causes any damage done to either the demon or the cultist to be split 50/50 with both. The Demonologists heal demons and have a 1/battle summon effect that brings in a random demon unit
Level 2:
* Succubus (Lilith)
- The Succubus has unearthly beauty. They are a bruiser who can fly over small obstacles with their move of 3. The Lilith can Charm, which is a melee attack that does not allow retaliation and has a chance of doing no damage but giving you control over the target stack for a turn.
* Hell Hound (Cerberus)
- The Hell Hound has Pounce. This allows them to move all the way across the board and attack if there is nothing in their way. The Cerberus also attacks any enemies in the hex to the direct right and left of the hex they are attacking.
Level 3:
* Horned Demon (Executioner)
- It's a level 3 bruiser that is fairly standard. It's tough, it hits hard, it's move 3 before running. The Executioner can choose to critical every other round, and has Killer, so wounds it inflicts can't be healed.
* Rakshasi (Asura)
- It's basically a Naga with red snake parts. Or a Marilith if you're into D&D. Unlimited Counterattacks, constant damage, and no running. It has Snake Strike for a no-counterattacks attack every other round. The upgraded Asura also has Sword Dance, that attacks every enemy adjacent to the Asura with no counterattacks.
Level 4:
* Pit Fiend
- It flies, it can summon demons like a Demonologist, it can shoot fire at things.
Necropolis
The Necropolis is a faction ruled by the Undead. It does, however, have actual cities with actual people living in them. The general theme is creepy "Eastern European Vampire Cliches". The human people there are dour Igor types that serve their vampire overlords, but the cities demonstrably have living occupants. The favored terrain is cave. In an effort to drive home the point of "undead are in charge, humans are not", the upgraded versions of the higher level living troops are undead.
Tactically, the Necropolis has a number of ways to raise new troops - both during and after battles. But their soldiers are individually fairly fragile. Archers: 1, Bruisers: 5, Skirmishers: 6, Support: 2.
Level 1:
* Voi (Peshtsi)
- The Voi are humans with spears. They are actually recolors of the Footmen, and of generally lower quality and costs. The upgraded Pashtsi are of approximately Footman quality but are slightly more geared towards defense.
* Skeleton Warrior (Skeleton Archer)
- The Skeleton Warrior is very cheap in gold and fairly high in Leadership costs for what you get. However, Bone units get resistance to ranged attacks. And the Necromancy skill lets you get additional Undead when you win combats, and at basic you just get Skeleton Warriors or Archers (with higher levels, you can get other units). The Skeleton Archer is a ranged unit, but once per battle it can fire a poison arrow that inflicts poisoning.
* Zombie (Ghoul)
- The Zombie is slow (move 2), but it's tough and cheap. The Ghoul is pretty much the same thing but move 4.
Level 2:
* Ghost (Banshee)
- The Ghost is fragile and doesn't hit that hard. Once per battle it can Curse an enemy stack. Whenever a Ghost causes a casualty in an enemy stack, you get one more Ghost in your stack - ones beyond your Leadership limit are lost at the end of the battle. The Banshee is pretty much the same thing but it has a Wail it can use every other round that hits all adjacent living units with some no-retaliation damage and a one turn attack debuff.
* Druzhina (Blackguard)
- The Druzhina are humans on horses. Much weaker than Haven Horsemen, they also come a level early. Still very fast and hit kind of hard. The Blackguard are tougher versions that are also Undead.
Level 3:
* Necromancer (Lich)
- The Necromancer is a reskin of the Priestess/Demonologist (in Black rather than Yellow or Red). She is an archer that curses the target. Perhaps more importantly, the Necromancer has an ability called "Animate Dead", which targets a living stack (of either side) that has casualties or resurrectable dead and eliminates some of them and then targets a stack of friendly undead and resurrects some of the fallen undead. The Lich is a more powerful version of the Necromancer that also happens to be undead.
* Vampire (Vampire Lord)
- The Vampire Flies, attacks without retaliation, and resurrects its own fallen when it does damage to living targets. The Vampire Lord is exactly the same except that it is individually tougher and regenerates.
Level 4:
* Poltergeist
- The Poltergeist is Invisible at the start of battle. It teleports, and attacks ever adjacent enemy.
Sanctuary
The token Japanese faction gets more interesting when we diversify it from "seven different water spirits" and give it a little more Japanese depth. Favored terrain is still Swamp, but now it is because the main people are the Japanese Skaven analogs - the Nezumi.
Tactically the Sanctuary is very short on skirmishers. Only the Kappa are capable of tying up enemies in any kind of hurry. The faction makes up for it to an extent by having basic units who are pretty fast, and having some ways to slow down enemies. Archers: 3, Bruisers: 7, Skirmishers: 2, Support: 2.
Level 1:
* Nezumi (Nezumi Ashigaru)
- Moderately fast Bruiser Unit. Nezumi are Speed 4, and otherwise pretty similar to footmen. The Ashigaru
* Kappa (Kappa Shoya)
- A simple Skirmisher. The Kappa has a Leap it can use every other round that moves it all the way across the battlefield. The Shoya does a bonus bit of damage to all adjacent enemies at the end of the leap.
* Wind Weasel (Kamaitachi)
- A fast Archer unit. Wind Weasels are weasels who carry sickles and can shoot wind at enemies. They are also "Wind Guarded" which gives them resistance to enemy ranged attacks. The Kamaitachi can rob a unit of ranged attack capability for three rounds once per battle.
Level 2:
* Nezumi Ninja (Kagebushi)
- The Ninja is similar in concept to the Gnollish Assassin. No retaliation, venomous, Killer, and Backstab. The Kagebushi begins the battle Invisible, and becomes Invisible at the end of any action in which they do not attack.
* Snow Maiden (Yuki Onna)
- The Snow Maiden is a ranged attacker who reduces enemy movement. The Yuki Onna has a Snow Drift that plops difficult terrain on the board, and also Deep Freeze, which is a ranged attack that does less damage but reduces movement more.
Level 3:
* Naga (Naga Kenshin)
- The Naga is a bruiser. Unlimited Counterattacks, constant damage, and no running. It has Snake Strike for a no-counterattacks attack every other round. The Kenshin has Swords Dance to attack all adjacent enemies.
* Ogre (Ogre Magi)
- Ogres are Demons. The regular Ogre is a big bruiser. The Ogre Magi is the same thing but it also has some support spells.
Level 4:
* Kirin
- It's fast and provides a luck bonus to any friendly creatures in the army. It also curses enemies it hits.
Stronghold
The Stronghold is full of Barbarians. Specifically Orcish Barbarians, which is even more barbarous than most Barbarians. These Orcs are of the traditional horned-helmets-and-snow type. They are Vikings and proud of it. So you have Orcs with furs and horned helmets and big axes. Their favored terrain is snow, and not swamp or waste.
Tactically, the Stronghold has very limited archery. Goblins are ranged attackers, but Orcs hit things in melee. Archers: 2, Bruisers: 6, Skirmishers: 4, Support 2.
Level 1:
* Orcish Warrior (Orcish Berserker)
- Orcish Warriors are tough basic Bruiser units: an Orc with an Axe. Berserkers can "enrage" on any turn, which gives them an attack boost and a defense penalty until their next turn.
* Wolf (Fenrir)
- Wolves run very fast and are a basic Skirmisher. The Fenrir attacks a second time after counterattacks are resolved.
* Goblin (Goblin Trapper)
- Goblins throw axes and are a ranged unit. Trappers hit harder and can also lay a trap instead of attacking (like a Dwarven Sapper).
Level 2:
* Valkyrie (Dis)
- Valkyries are Undead. They fly very fast, and are a basic Skirmisher unit, save that their presence increases the morale of other Stronghold units. The Dis also give Luck boosts to adjacent troops and Curse any target they strike.
* Orc Shaman (Antlered Shaman)
- It's a support unit, the shaman can lay down Blood Lust on allies. The Antlered Shaman has antlers on his hat and can also cast Terror on enemies. Regardless, they are still Orcs and hit reasonably hard.
Level 3:
* Troll (War Troll)
- A defense-oriented Regenerating Bruiser. The War Troll is tougher still and has "malevolence", which makes its attack go up for the rest of the battle whenever a stack is killed on either side. It also has the same "enrage" power that the Berserkers have.
* Bear Rider (Beornhilde)
- It's a female Orc on a bear. With a spear. Armored like a Valkyrie. Despite being a mounted unit, it's only move 3 (although it can still run), so it's a bruiser. Where the Troll is defensive-minded, the Bear Rider is all attack. It does a lot more damage and has "vengeance", which makes its attack power go way up for a round when it takes damage.
Level 4:
* Giant
- Every other round the Giant can activate "rock throwing", which lets them make a ranged attack. Other than that, they are just very big and resistant to cold and fire.
Where are the Fifth Level Creatures?
Of course, there are fifth level creatures, but they are not available for purchase in towns. They are so powerful that the leadership requirement to lead even one of them is beyond the capabilities of a low level hero. They can be recruited only in external dwellings, and those dwellings are normally guarded. While the different fifth level creatures do not get built in cities, they are nonetheless considered associated with a specific faction for purposes of animosity.
* Arch Devil - Inferno
- The Arch Devil is a giant red dude with lightning coming out of his eyes who carries a giant scythe. Arch Devils teleport around the battlefield instead of moving normally. Their big nasty surprise is that whenever they attack anything they can inflict astral damage equal to half the hit points of the stack.
* Black Dragon - Haven
- The Black Dragon is like a monstrously powerful Wyvern, and it has poisonous breath that poisons the stack behind their actual target (if any). The big difference is that Haven units regard them as sacred because they are like monstrously powerful Wyverns. Black Dragons are immune to magic.
* Bone Dragon - Necropolis
- The other human city also gets along with dragons. Although in this case it is the animated bones of those dragons. The Bone Dragon has the same poison breath as its living counterpart, but it is overall not as tough and lacks magic immunity. It makes up for this with a resistance to ranged attacks and causing fear.
* Colossus - Bazaar
- The Colossus is a giant made of Bronze.
* Dhole - Asylum
- It's this thing: Dhole.
* Diamond Golem - Forge
* Force of Nature - Bastion
* Celestial - Sanctuary
* Mud Worm - Fortress
* Solar Scarab - Hideout
* Titan - Dungeon
* Surtur - Stronghold
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 02:03 PM |
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Edited by hobo2 at 20:53, 21 Jan 2012.
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Reserved for More Spells and Skills
Terminology
The game makes an important distinction between Causalities and Dead. A unit is a casualty when it takes enough damage to equal its hit points. Casualties don't fight or get counted in stack totals, but they can be healed back to fighting fit. After a turn has passed, Casualties become Corpses, and then they cannot be healed.
In this way, Healing retains its usefulness once stacks get large enough that all attacks drop multiple units in any stack, but healing is not the be-all-end-all that it is in Heroes VI.
Hero Skills
Hero advancement is "semi random". That means that you get a choice of four different skill upgrades when you level up. Two of them are from skill trees you already have, and two are choices of skill trees you don't have. This continues until you have eight skill trees on your hero and then all four of your skill options are skills in trees you already have.
Each skill has 3 levels. Basic, Expert, Master. There are no Grand Master things to worry about. In addition, every skill has three secondary skills in its tree. These secondary skills do not have ratings - you either have them or you do not have them. In this way, you won't feel that you have to pour lots of skill points into a secondary skill to make it useful (like say, HoMMIV's Stealth). Every Secondary Skill does what it does right away.
Magic Skills
Unlike other skills that generally have a passive effect of some kind, Magic Skills don't do much of anything without visiting Libraries. Every Library will have one or more spells of Basic, Expert, and Master level of each of the four flavors of magic. If you have the appropriate level of magic skill, you get to use that spell from then on. Nonetheless, Magic Skills are still skills, and that means that they each have three secondary skills associated with them.
Sample Skills:
Alchemy
Alchemy makes your opponents suffer more damage when they are poisoned or on fire. 10% at Basic, 30% at Expert, and 50% at Master.
* Enchantment - when casting spells on your own units, mana costs are reduced by 20%.
* Poison Supplies - every enemy stack starts the battle with the Poisoned condition during a siege.
* Transmutation - the hero counts as a marketplace for purposes of setting exchange rates.
Ballistics
Allows the hero to target war machines and increases their damage by 30%, 50%, or 75% at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Archery - The hero gets a ranged attack and Double Strike, and Precise Shot when placed on the field of battle as a unit.
* Quick Draw - Archery units in the hero's army gain +2 Initiative.
* Suppressive Fire - ranged attacks and war machine strikes reduce the morale of enemy stacks.
Defense
Increases the hero's Defense by 1, 3, or 5 at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Caution - All friendly units take only half damage on the first turn.
* Hold the Line - when one of your stacks has not moved yet this turn, they have First Strike.
* Shield Guard - the hero benefits from Heavy Shield, Steel Armor, and Parry when deployed on the field of battle as a unit.
Diplomacy
Diplomacy makes your army count as being larger for purposes of whether neutral stacks will fight, flee, or negotiate. The bonus is 50% at Basic, 75% at Expert, and 100% at Master. In addition, it makes stacks count as 1 degree less hostile. If a stack decides to bargain, the gold cost for the troops is reduced by 10%, 20%, or 30% for Basic, Expert, and Master. Finally, having Diplomacy tells you whether a stack will fight, flee, join, or bargain while they are within the hero's scouting radius.
* Barter - The hero counts as a marketplace for purposes of setting exchange rates.
* Coalition Building - Negates the morale penalty for animosity for having troops from different factions.
* Delegation - Allows the hero to have two stacks of the same creature type and have their leadership totals count separately.
Healing
Healing makes your healing and resurrection effects more effective. The bonus is 10% more HP at Basic, 20% more HP at Expert, and 30% more HP at Master.
* Antidote - Friendly poisoned stacks have the condition removed at the end of their turns (the duration of Poison is thus never higher than 1). If one of your units is Healed of any damage while they are poisoned, the poison is dispelled.
* First Aid - Casualties in your army take one extra turn to turn into corpses, allowing you to use heals for one more turn.
* Triage - at the end of a battle you won, any casualties who haven't died yet are brought back.
Inspiration
Increases the Morale of troops by 1, 2, or 3 at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Forced March - If a friendly unit begins a turn with Running already used, they can use it again, but doing so Poisons the stack.
* Propaganda - friendly units hate enemy units of the same terrain type and do increased damage against them. For example: a unit of Pikemen will do bonus damage against all enemy Haven and Bastion troops, while a unit of Demonologists will do bonus damage against all enemy Inferno and Forge troops.
* Training - a normal unit can be "upgraded" by spending gold. So for example: Imps could be upgraded into Taunting Imps or Footmen could be upgraded into Pikemen.
Logistics
Logistics increases the hero's overland movement by 10%, 20%, and 30% at Basic, Expert, and Master.
* Ledgers - If you right click on treasure piles, camp fires, and chests within the hero's scouting radius, it tells you what and how much is in them.
* Steal Resources - If the hero captures a mine or other building inside enemy territory, it does not revert to the original owner when they leave.
* Reinforcements - the time to send a caravan to the hero's location is reduced by 1 turn.
Luck
Increases the Luck of troops by 1, 2, or 3 at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Fortune's Friends - if there is an ability of a friendly unit that has a chance to trigger (ex.: venomous, unearthly beauty, death gaze), the chance of it triggering is increased by 1/3.
* Resistance - The resistance to Fire, Lightning, Poison, and Astral damage of all allies is increased by 10%.
* Serendipity - it takes no movement points for the hero to pick up resources or interact with buildings on the world map.
Offense
Increases the hero's Attack by 1, 3, or 5 at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Combat - the hero gains Double Strike and First Strike when deployed on the field as a unit.
* Onslaught - allied stacks get a bonus to attack and initiative on the first turn.
* Slaying - allied units do bonus damage against level 4 and 5 enemies.
Necromancy
Necromancy gives you an amount of Leadership worth of undead units at the end of the battle based on the number of living troops that fell. At Basic it only gives you Skeleton Warriors. At Expert it will add units to any stack of 1st or 2nd level undead troops. At Master it will add units to any undead stack of 3rd level or less. Necromancy won't give you more Poltergeists or Bone Dragons because it doesn't go past level 3 troops.
* Burial - Every enemy unit dropped has a 25% chance to be killed outright.
* Syphon - when an enemy stack is destroyed, the hero gains mana.
* Vampirism - when the hero inflicts damage with a spell or their own attacks (if they are placed on the board), that damage heals a random friendly injured undead stack.
Scholar
Increases the hero's Knowledge by +1, +3, or +5 at Basic, Expert, and Master.
* Mysticism - The hero's mana regeneration rate is increased by 50%.
* Scribe - The hero automatically shares any spells known with any hero traded with or joined, provided that the heroes have the same magic skills. The hero also permanently learns any spell that they are holding in scroll form.
* Wisdom - The hero immediately learns a new random spell for each level of each element that they know. Whenever they advance any magic skill, they learn an additional spell.
Scouting
Scouting lets your hero explore more territory while they move around the world map. At Basic they see 1 more step in all directions. At Expert they see 3 more steps, and at Master they see 5 more steps. Further, when a hero has Scouting they are entitled to see the literal numbers of troops instead of just the descriptive terms. At Expert, the hero also gets a report about whether stacks of neutrals will fight, flee, join, or negotiate.
* Eagle Eye - with Eagle Eye, the hero learns any spell used in combat by creatures or opposing heroes if they have the right magic skill to use it.
* Pathfinding - the movement cost of difficult terrain is reduced by 10%. This stacks with Wilderness Lore.
* Strategy - during the tactics phase, you can add a terrain piece to the battlefield to deny a hex of your choice.
Sorcery
Increases the hero's Spell Power by 1, 3, or 5 at Basic, Expert, or Master respectively.
* Counter Magic - when an enemy hero casts a spell, there is a 30% chance you will counter it. The spell does not take effect and you lose an amount of mana equal to the cost of the spell countered.
* Higher Magic - if the first spell the hero casts in a round costs less mana than their level (maximum 20), they can cast a second spell.
* Penetration - the resistance to Fire, Lightning, Poison, and Astral damage of all enemy stacks is reduced by 10% to a minimum of zero.
Tactics
At the beginning of the battle, you can rearrange your troops. Greater Tactics skill gives a larger area to place troops in. Enemy tactics cancel your Tactics, and troops may only be rearranged if you have a greater degree of tactical skill.
* Ambush - The hero's army gets a bonus to initiative on the first turn.
* Flanking - Units in the hero's army get a damage boost if they attack stacks that already have used up their retaliation attack this turn.
* Surveying - During the tactics phase, you can place a terrain piece on the battlefield.
Wilderness Lore
Wilderness Lore reduces the movement cost of difficult terrain (snow, swamp, lava) by 10% at basic. The bonus increases to 30% at Expert and 50% at Master. Yes, it is possible to stack up enough wilderness bonuses that you move faster on snow than you do on roads.
* Beast Tongue - Increases the Morale of all Beasts in your army.
* Track Obscurement - Enemies do not get estimates of the numbers in the hero's army and just get "???" instead.
* Trapper - during the tactics phase, you can place a trap on the battlefield.
Sample Spells
Spells
An important consideration with spells is that they do not scale with skills. Bless and Mass Bless are simply different spells and having Master Water Magic allows you to learn Mass Bless (if it appears in a Library). However, every spell scales with spell power. Some spells do not scale very much, but they all scale. For example, Bless sets your unit's damage to maximum plus 1% per point of spell power. So a stack of 100 that inflicted 1-3 damage per unit base would inflict 303 damage at Spell Power 1, and 390 damage at Spell Power 30.
Universal Spells
Every Hero knows three spells whether they are Might or Magic and whether they have any magic skills or not. Here they are:
* Magic Arrow - costs 5 mana and does moderate physical damage to one stack.
* Disruption - costs 7 mana and reduces the defense of one stack.
* Dispel Magic - costs 5 mana and ends all ongoing effects on one stack.
AIR SPELLS
* Air Shield - target suffers less damage from ranged attacks.
* Antimagic - all effects are removed from the target and the target cannot be further targeted by spells for a number of turns.
* Buffet - target is stunned. Requires sufficient spell power to affect more powerful targets.
* Fortune - Increases target's Luck to maximum.
* Grease Cloud - fills a 7 hex area. Creatures in the area suffer a penalty to ranged attacks and are vulnerable to fire.
* Haste - target gets extra movement and initiative.
* Poison Cloud - fills a 7 hex area. Creatures who enter the area or begin their turns in the area are Poisoned. Ranged attacks into, out of, or through the area deal with cover.
* Precision - target does more damage with ranged attacks and does not suffer distance penalties.
* Resist Lightning - target gains a boost to its resistance to lightning.
* Song of the Wind - ship movement is faster for the rest of the turn.
* Whispering Winds - Claims an undefended building such as a mine without using movement. Maximum range is based on spell power.
* Wind Wall - fills three contiguous hexes. Ranged attacks through those hexes do severely less damage. Movement into the hexes takes 2 movement points.
Expert
* Cloud Kill - fills a 7 hex area. Causes poison damage every turn and Poisons each unit in the area.
* Counterstrike - target has no limit to how many times they may retaliate.
* Dense Fog - fills a 19 hex area. Ranged attacks passing into or through (but not out-of) the fog suffer large penalties.
* Disguise - other players will get false information when right clicking on the hero.
* Good Omen - All friendly stacks gain a luck bonus.
* Gust of Wind - does modest physical damage to the target and pushes them in a direction of your choice.
* Ice Storm - Does a mix of physical and cold damage on a 7 hex area.
* Invisibility - target creature stack is Invisible.
* Lightning Bolt - does significant lightning damage to one stack.
* Magic Mirror - Spells cast on the target have a chance of being redirected to one of the stacks of the caster's army.
* Phantoms - creates a duplicate of a stack of creatures. The phantoms last for 3 turns and have hit points based on a spell power derived percentage of the original.
Master
* Chain Lightning - Does lightning damage to one stack, then it does half as much damage to three other stacks.
* Cloak Army - The hero's army does not appear to other players on the world map unless it is within 3 steps of an enemy hero.
* Dimension Door - The hero's army teleports a distance based on spell power at the cost of a single movement point and some spell points.
* Doppelganger - as Phantoms, but not limited to 3 turns.
* Drain Magic - no hero or creatures can cast spells for a number of turns.
* Hypnotize - temporarily takes over enemy stack.
* Foul Vapors - poisons every unit on the board.
* Mass Haste - All friendly stacks gain a boost to movement and initiative.
* Mass Precision - All friendly stacks gain a bonus to ranged damage and suffer no penalties for shooting at long range.
* Wind Storm - All ranged attacks suffer substantial penalties. Fliers cannot fly and suffer movement penalties.
FIRE SPELLS
* Blood Lust - target gains Attack.
* Curse - target inflicts minimum damage, minus 1% per spell power.
* Extinguish - Removes "on fire" from all creature stacks in a 7 hex area.
* Fear - target is affected by Fear and cannot attack an equal or higher level creature.
* Fire Arrow - Does better damage than Magic Arrow and is Fire. Has a 20% chance of lighting the target on fire.
* Fire Reading - Shows where neutral monsters are on the map out to a distance based on Spell Power. Also tells you the aggression level of those monsters.
* Fire Shield - when the target stack is attacked in melee, the attacker suffers fire damage.
* Ignite - target catches on fire.
* Gate Imps - Summons a number of Imps to your aid for the rest of combat. If you cast it on a stack of Imps or Taunting Imps, it instead Resurrects units in that stack.
* Misfortune - Target has minimum luck rating.
* Protection From Fire - Creature gets increased Fire Resistance.
* Purge - Removes all positive effects from the target. The target cannot have positive effects placed on them for a number of turns.
Expert
* Bad Day - All enemy stacks suffer a modest luck penalty.
* Berserker - target stack gets an attack bonus and a defense penalty. The target also goes out of control and moves towards the nearest enemy and attacks them for the duration of the spell. Is considered a positive effect if cast on your own troops and a negative effect if cast on enemy troops.
* Blind - Target cannot move or attack. Blind is ended if the target takes damage.
* Doom - All attacks against the target are an automatic critical hit.
* Fire Ball - Does Fire damage in a 7 hex area. Has a chance equal to 10 + Spell Power % of lighting the target on fire.
* Fire Wall - A three hex line fills with fire. Any creatures beginning their turn in or moving into a burning hex takes fire damage. The Fire Wall provides cover.
* Fire Trap - Places a trap on the board. The trap does fire damage and lights the victim on fire.
* Life Pact - choose two targets. If the first target is friendly, the second must also be friendly. If the first is an enemy, the second must also be an enemy. Whenever either target suffers damage, they only suffer half of it. The other half is inflicted on the other target.
* Slayer - Target stack does extra damage against level 4 and 5 creatures.
* Summoning Circle - Places a pentagram on the board in a hex of your choice. One turn later, a random demon unit appears to fight for you.
* Wasting Curse - target inflicts minimum damage, minus 1% per spell power, and is Poisoned.
Master
* Armageddon - Does fire damage to every stack on the board. Also damages walls.
* Doom Cloud - A 7 hex area fills up with Doom. All stacks in the cloud suffer attack penalties and all attacks against targets in the cloud are automatically critical hits.
* Frenzy - Target becomes Confused and Enraged and is out of control, attacking the nearest unit whether friend or foe.
* Incinerate - Massive fire damage to one stack.
* Inferno - Fire damage in a large area.
* Mass Curse - all enemy stacks are cursed.
* Mass Purge - removes all positive effects from all enemy stacks.
* Mass Slayer - all friendly stacks do extra damage to level 4 and 5 creatures.
* Phoenix Pyre - summons a stack of phoenixes and does fire damage to every adjacent hex. If cast on a hex that already contains phoenixes, it resurrects phoenixes instead.
* Sacrifice - does damage to one friendly stack and resurrects units in another friendly stack.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 14, 2012 07:34 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 19:47, 14 Jan 2012.
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I will right out start with a reesponse, hope that's ok.
General Idea: Is fine, I think making the GAME only is perfectly well,if you wish, but one shoudl consider that setting and factions are hard to seperate. A factions background is one of the things shaping it. Of course, the background does nto need to be detailedly given, but it's allways there, lurking in the ...backgrounds 
Also, havign overread it: generally I like most of the factiosn and, which is more important even, I think the composition of factions is quite great!!!
Quote:
Traditional Factions
Stronghold - Orcs
Bastion - Elves (AKA: Preserve, Rampart, Sylvan, Sorceress)
Haven - Humans
Necropolis - Humans
Dungeon - Troglodytes
Inferno - Imps
Fortress - Lizards
New Factions With Traditional Races
Bazaar - Gnomes
Forge - Dwarves
Hideout - Gnolls
New Races With Traditional Factions
Sanctuary - Nezumi (Rat People)
Asylum - Mi Go (Bug People)
Overall, it's fine, there are thign swhich are not good in my taste (Bastion for Elven faction, Humans as necropiolis main race (or well, it depends...can be grreat) and gnolls as a main race of a faction. also, asylum is not that traditional, having appeared only in H4, same goes for sanctuary, but maybe that's jus tme...
I'm, just looking at this, curios on the new factions (as well as the "traditional" ones with new races)
Buildings
...overall, a fine system.
...I like the different types of special buildings.
...It seems here ]there are again only 4 levels of troops...donÄt like that so, I think...
Leadership
I'm indifferent on this. It can be done great, and it can be done aweful.
Troops
Love the colour thing. ...I think bugs and lizards especially coudl differ finely in sexes.
Note on the facitons in general: I'd liek to know more about the creatures. What they ARE (especially in asylum you sometime shave no idea.), how they look and abilities could be described in more detail for my taste.
Asylum
Quote:
The Asylum's favored terrain is snow.
ehm. To me, that makes no sense. Insect spopulate the whole earth, they can live in all kinds of environments - but almost none in ice-cold regiosn! why do you chose exactly the one unfitting home terrain for bug-men?
And that makes the whole faction feeling bad for me. Insects jsut fit everywhere EXCEPT snow, thus the whole combination feels wrong for me. Which is sad, because on the whole, I love the concept of bug-men as a factionbase.
...so much for now, am really tired, I think I'll responmse on the othe rfactiosn tomorrow or so...
EDIT: oh, and you're not by chance interested in games and contests of creation?
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 14, 2012 07:50 PM |
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Quote:
ehm. To me, that makes no sense. Insect spopulate the whole earth, they can live in all kinds of environments - but almost none in ice-cold regiosn! why do you chose exactly the one unfitting home terrain for bug-men?
And that makes the whole faction feeling bad for me. Insects jsut fit everywhere EXCEPT snow, thus the whole combination feels wrong for me. Which is sad, because on the whole, I love the concept of bug-men in a faction.
The Insects are these insect people:
Originally from HP Lovecraft's Mythos material, they were described as being from Pluto. Which is very cold. Also, a lot of the Mythos stuff is set in Antarctica, which is also very cold. Or on the Himalayan Plateau, which again is very cold. The ancient cities look like this:
Or this:
As to why it fits the "Asylum", that is because the series is one of the cornerstones of insanity in modern literature. To give you an example of how this works: "Arkham Asylum" is named after "Arkham, Massachusetts", which is another major location in the Mythos books. The most famous fictional "Asylum" is named after that book series. And if you were going to take a city full of monsters from that book series, the obvious places to bring them from are either the bottom of the sea, or an icy plateau.
These aren't your happy flower tending bugs, the Shoggoth Looks like this
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted January 15, 2012 06:25 PM |
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so it's hell verse the outer dark?
*grabs popcorn*
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 15, 2012 07:12 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 19:15, 15 Jan 2012.
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ok, that makes your thoughts clear. It still is not my taste totally, (because I still think its unrealistic, however many other mythos' and people might have used insects in icy regions) but I can live with it, if its done good, anyway. and I didn't expect flower-carers
so, continuing the feedback (and doing it proably mor edetaield than yesterday when I was almost sleeping):
First, I think I don't understand your movement system ("Move X" and "no running" appear at some unit but I don't knwo what it means), could you please explain it?
Second: May I enter your proposal to the "Full Proposal" List in the Shrine of Creation (Which is a thread here in the altar where all user creatiosn shall be gathered)?
Also: What's a "Bruiser" unit, ain't familiar with the word...
Bastion
overall, the faciton seems classical and that's fien with it, since the Elven faction is a classical faction that does best with no major changes. It also fits them well to work much with synergies
-Satyr...fine as it is, fits its role and lore
-Elven warrior...unupgraded fine. upgraded...I'm not so a fan of freely-shapeshifting werewolves, at least not under that na,e, so I'd like a name change - yet you'd probably be with many players with the name of werewolf
-Pixie/Sprite is solid classic. I think the step of giving them S&R is good, especially as synergy with the other creatures.
-Huntress/Ranger...fine, only it's missing to whom the ranger does additional bonusdmg.
-Dryad...the abilities would be nice to be explained.
-Druid...fine and fitting
-Unicorn...ok
-Tree Lord...fitting. Especially like 'em being able to take down objects
Bazaar
I love gnomes as main actors in this town.  And it seems solid so far, am looking forward to more info on the units.
Dungeon
seems fitting and classical, making it rather Ancient-Greek-inspired, unit sfit this as well. Especially love the troglodyte upgrades (both of them) Again: very much looking forward on to get to know more =)
Forge
again, an end of a sentence seems to be missing. The lineup and general theme seem fine, am looking forward on how cyclops will be worked out to fit in this =)
Fortress
I like lizardmen in mesoamerican style more than orcs in it. Of course, dinosaurs fit 'em lizards.
Lineup overall seems fine. What is a macuahuitl?
haven
seems to be classical haven as we kniow it. Which (like with abstion) is perfectly well.
The units all seem very classical and ok in how they are done, no further comments by me.
Hideout
A positive surprise. I wasn't for gnolls as main race, as I said before, but this faction seems quite great! ...i would liek it to be worked out in detail! (maybe for the still running ICTC? )
-Bandit/Maurauder...how exactly does the gaining of money work?
-Serpents...nice unit, fitting good into the faction
-Spider...ok
-Assassin. Fine. Backstab is a msut -have here
-Pirates...nice variant!!!
-Gorgon...giant cow again? :/
-Mummy...needed and nice in this
-Ammut..bon appetite
Inferno
Well, it's inferno. I personally like non-demon units in!!!
-Imp..."every othe rturn" means all 2 turns? overall, fien with the unit
-Gog...like to see 'em back!
-Cultist. Allready said I love non-demons in inferno. The Blood Pact is AWESOME!
-Succubus...pretty good, much better than the H5 one!!!
-Classical again. Not sure about pouncing, depends on how big battlefields are but could be a bit strong.
-Horned Demon...well, what does "choose to critical every other turn" mean? otherwise...not so creative, but ok.
-Rakshasi...seems to the naga what efreet of H3 wwas to the djinn. would work fine in this lineup, I think.
-Pit Fiend. Fitting. Not creative. But fitting.
EDIT: the remaining factiosn I will response on in the next couple of days...
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 15, 2012 08:57 PM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 20:58, 15 Jan 2012.
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I would've renamed the 'orcish' units to simply 'orc'.
-ish indicates that something is similar or related to, but not the same as what went before the suffix.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 09:33 PM |
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A lot of the factions, to my mind, seem to be arranged along the lines of "if may live in that environment, so let's stick it in this faction". Now I'm not saying that doesn't work (I plan to do it myself a bit), but I would say that some history for the factions would make them more believable.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 15, 2012 10:01 PM |
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May I enter your proposal to the "Full Proposal" List in the Shrine of Creation (Which is a thread here in the altar where all user creatiosn shall be gathered)?
Sure. I wasn't sure if I had to write everything out before it went up there. As is, it's only about 6000 words.
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First, I think I don't understand your movement system ("Move X" and "no running" appear at some unit but I don't knwo what it means), could you please explain it?
Sure. We're using the basic setup from the later King's Bounty games for movement. That means the battlefield looks something like this:
A Bruiser unit normally has a move of 2 to 4. Units that are not archers mostly have the ability "run". That is an ability that can be activated once per battle and grants 2 extra movement for that turn only. Units that don't have the ability to Run are thus short a lot of tactical flexibility. At the very least it generally works out to about one more turn of not getting across the board.
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Also: What's a "Bruiser" unit, ain't familiar with the word...
I'm classifying units into "Bruisers" that are tough, but can't cross the board fast enough to lock down archers; "Archers" that shoot; "Skirmishers" that move across the board quickly enough to lock down archers (but are generally weaker than Bruisers); and "Support" units who do other stuff like buff, curse, heal, or summon.
There is a basic RPS wherein Archers beat Bruisers in a straight fight because they get several attacks in on the bruisers before the bruisers can do anything. Skirmishers beat archers in a straight fight, because archers do half damage in melee and the skirmishers can leap on their face. And Bruisers beat Skirmishers, because the Skirmishers leap on the Bruisers and then the Bruisers simply have more hit points and damage output per leadership. Support units are a little tug of war all their own, in that any other kind of unit will generally beat a support unit on its own, but the support unit adds more to the rest of the team than one more of something you already have. Ideally, this means that you are encouraged to field mixed armies with different kinds of stuff in it.
But it also lends itself to weird stuff like the "All Bruiser Squad" where you simply accept the loss of a stack or two but grind down your opponent in the late-battle slugfest with superior combat stats.
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Elven warrior...unupgraded fine. upgraded...I'm not so a fan of freely-shapeshifting werewolves, at least not under that na,e, so I'd like a name change - yet you'd probably be with many players with the name of werewolf
The Werewolf Elf is a standard unit in King's Bounty these days. You can see them in action here. Basically I thought my options were Warhammeresque Sword Dancers or King's Bounty Werewolves for the upgraded Elf Warriors. The latter is more interesting to me.
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What is a macuahuitl?
A Macuahuitl is an Aztec sword. Made without metal working, so basically it's a cricket bat made of Central American hardwood that they have attached sharpened shards of obsidian to the edges of. Very similar in concept to the weapon the Shark Warriors use in Heroes VI. The difference being that the Shark Warriors use a Polynesian weapon that is a club covered in shark teeth rather than a Meso American weapon that is a club covered in obsidian blades. The Heroes VI Mauler also uses something similar, except that as far as I know that weird big circle at the end is totally a-historical. A Panther Warrior is a historical thing, and they look like this. For Heroes VII, it would be a Lizard in the suit but otherwise much the same.
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-Bandit/Maurauder...how exactly does the gaining of money work?
Much like the Hall of Raiders does for the Heroes VI Stronghold. Surviving Bandits "loot" at the end of a victorious battle and you get a little "gold found" icon over your hero's head.
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-Gorgon...giant cow again? :/
Of course! Well, Metal Skinned Pig Cow Hybrid anyway. It's a mythological Catoblepas more than a D&D Gorgon.
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-Horned Demon...well, what does "choose to critical every other turn" mean? otherwise...not so creative, but ok.
They have an action "Critical Strike" that has a cool down timer so they can't use it more than once every other turn. If they use it, their attack is a critical regardless of luck. It's not super creative, but people want something big and tough and red in there.
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I would've renamed the 'orcish' units to simply 'orc'.
-ish indicates that something is similar or related to, but not the same as what went before the suffix.
That depends. The adjectival form of Czech is Czech. The adjectival form of Russia is Russian. The adjectival form of Turkey is Turkish. You could certainly say "Orcs are like Czechs" and just as you say "ten Czech soldiers" you say "ten Orc soldiers." But you're be just as correct to say that Orcs are like Turks, and just as you say "ten Turkish soldiers" you say "ten Orcish soldiers." Tolkien's Orcs are the latter, and they speak Orcish and there are Orcish soldiers in their armies.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 15, 2012 10:33 PM |
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I thought there was a difference between races and nationalities.
Oh well, I'm glad you didn't use the elves as an example 
3 rings for 11 kings
It's probably fine as it is then
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 16, 2012 03:22 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 17:37, 16 Jan 2012.
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I thought there was a difference between races and nationalities.
trying to be correctly here, would lead us to claiming that the word 'races' ain't correct here either, since normally when in fantasy rpgs is talked about races, it mostly are different species instead but don't want to get offtopic
EDIT: For the remainign factions...
Necropolis
The humans seem to be nicely implemented in this faction. The unti sseem fine overall...comments on single units:
-Ghost: No immateriality?!
-Druzhina...woudl prefer a different name...otherwise ok
-Necromancer: I love this unit, starting out as human, than turnin gudnead for the upgrade!
Sanctuary
well...a different approach. Like it much mroe than H6 one I think...
Stronghold
well...2 snow factions? would liek a diversifying more. On themselves, of course, them barbarians fit eprfec tinto snow. The units I think are all quite fine.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 16, 2012 10:50 PM |
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A lot of the factions, to my mind, seem to be arranged along the lines of "if may live in that environment, so let's stick it in this faction". Now I'm not saying that doesn't work (I plan to do it myself a bit), but I would say that some history for the factions would make them more believable.
There is that. One thing is that I don't actually think it is particularly difficult to make a creature feel like it "fits" in a faction. Griffins can be in the Dungeon by dint of being Grecian hybrid monsters like the rest of the faction. Or they can be roost in the aeries of the Bazaar next to the Rocs. Or they can make their nests in the tallest trees of the Bastion. Two of those were actually done in previous games of HoMM (II and IV). Similarly, the Wyverns could stomp through the swampy muck of the Fortress or they can be tamed from the wilderness by the Goblin hunters of the Stronghold. And again, both of those have actually been done (in HoMM III and V). But in this case, the family crests of the Human Empire have a Griffin and a Wyvern on them, and the people there train Griffins and Wyverns for war.
The danger of course is that you might end up with something like the Heroes IV Venom Spawn, where I seriously never figured out what it was, let alone why it might be fighting for my half dead necromancer. The key there is to have every creature building have a one paragraph description that you get by right-clicking in the town screen. Every one would tell you a little thing about the building and the creatures that live in it. You might get something like this:
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Temple of Prophecy
The Oracles of the Troglodytes do not truly "see", but it is said that they are able to know the future. They stay in the temple for days at a time, consulting with sacred flames and reading the turnings of cards and bones. The Oracles lack temporal authority, deferring in matters military and bureaucratic to the Medusa Queen and the Minotaur King. But they are still invaluable as advisers and the Troglodytes of Kalnor consider the Sybils of the Temple to have great moral authority. Neither the Medusa Queen nor the Minotaur King would ever move against the Temple. At least, not openly.
And you'd click on that and it would give you a vague idea that the heads of the Dungeon were the Queen of the Medusas and the King of the Minotaurs. And it would give you an idea that there was some sort of treacherous power struggle going on in the Dungeon. You would want to build on that in the dialog boxes and the campaigns - and you'd get more of that by right-clicking on the Hall of Stilled Voices (Medusa Dwelling) or the Labyrinth (Minotaur Dwelling).
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-Ghost: No immateriality?!
The way to handle immateriality has been wildly different in different games. Personally, I prefer the King's Bounty version, where Ghosts simply have a good Physical Damage Resistance and fly. The Heroes VI version where they take half damage on the first turn is weird, and the Heroes V version is just annoying.
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well...2 snow factions?
There are 6 terrain types and 12 factions. There are 2 factions from each terrain.
The Rats and the Lizards are both Swamp factions
The Dwarves and the Imps are both lava factions
The Humans and the Elves are both Grass factions
The Gnomes and the Gnolls are both Waste factions
The only one I find to be much of a stretch is the Necropolis is a Catacomb faction along with the Dungeon. But even then, you just have to fit in some of these catacombs and it works.
This actually is one of the ways to combat the "it lives in X, so it has to go in faction Y" problem. Since there are two factions in each terrain, a creature that lives in a specific terrain can be shunted into either of two factions to make it fit better. The Catoblepas lives in the desert, so it can be put in the Bazaar or the Hideout. But it's a rampaging, land bound beast that spreads poison where it walks. So obviously it makes a bit more sense to live next to the Temple of Murder than it does to live next to the Altar of Wishes.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 18, 2012 05:53 PM |
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Edited by Jiriki9 at 18:02, 18 Jan 2012.
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Soem replys on the replies.
-The Proposal List. It does not need to be complete, since it's hard to 'complete' such a proposal, but still the general idea can be AWESOME.
-Movement System...for my taste, It'S a bit "small". I prefer bigger battlefields in the way of a bigger battlefield with more movement (It jus tmakes more difference between single unit, without the difference being too much). But there are thigns speaking for a system like this, of course, so my issue is more a issue of my taste (again )
-thanks for explaining the "bruiser"etc. system
-Werevolves...it again is a matter of taste which is my concern here. I'm just a fan of poor old-fashioned werewolves bound to the time at or around full moon.
Generally, I haven'T played any King's Bounty but the old old old original (and it's been awhile isnce that, also I never played it THAT far), so that's why I may often ask systems which you took from there...
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Of course! Well, Metal Skinned Pig Cow Hybrid anyway. It's a mythological Catoblepas more than a D&D Gorgon.
That's much cooler than the HoMM3 one, imo
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They have an action "Critical Strike" that has a cool down timer so they can't use it more than once every other turn. If they use it, their attack is a critical regardless of luck. It's not super creative, but people want something big and tough and red in there.
Yeah, indeed, and it's certainly aeons better than some of the innovations of H6 in inferno imo (by reading them, sicne i have not played H6 so far)
-I liek the idea I seem to grasp off your last post to wind backgroudn infos into the game.
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There are 6 terrain types and 12 factions. There are 2 factions from each terrain.
Ah. That explains it. I again, personally prefer more terrain types. but, said, that's only my personal preference. I do not feel the "it lives in X, so it has to be in Y" problem is necessarily so storng. it depends on how much you bind factions to a terrain and how much you bind creatures to a terrain...
Overall, I just can say I'm looking forward to more, especially hero system and surroundings (skills, spells, artifacts)
EDIT: just realized ou allready gave soem info on skills.
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Hero advancement is "semi random". That means that you get a choice of four different skill upgrades when you level up. Two of them are from skill trees you already have, and two are choices of skill trees you don't have. This continues until you have eight skill trees on your hero and then all four of your skill options are skills in trees you already have.
like that system.
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Each skill has 3 levels. Basic, Expert, Master. There are no Grand Master things to worry about. In addition, every skill has three secondary skills in its tree. These secondary skills do not have ratings - you either have them or you do not have them. In this way, you won't feel that you have to pour lots of skill points into a secondary skill to make it useful (like say, HoMMIV's Stealth). Every Secondary Skill does what it does right away.
I personally, would like more here. More skill Levels and more Secondary skills. Also: Are there truly only three secondarys??? No choice to be made? I'd dislike that. But thats mainly because i, personally, LOVE to have many things and love to have choices in skill system - like "do I take this or that skill?". Found that a nice idea in H5, yet sometimes, choices were too premade for reasons of some skill sbeing vastly more important than others.
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Unlike other skills that generally have a passive effect of some kind, Magic Skills don't do much of anything without visiting Libraries. Every Library will have one or more spells of Basic, Expert, and Master level of each of the four flavors of magic. If you have the appropriate level of magic skill, you get to use that spell from then on. Nonetheless, Magic Skills are still skills, and that means that they each have three secondary skills associated with them.
Which four flavours of magic do you have? Or did you write that allready? I do not liek reducing the spell system, as it seams, onto 3 levels, I must say, I like the diversity of levels there!
Diplomacy
fine skill-reworking! Love how it works generally. The three subskills are awesome as well!
Healing
Does the effects count only for the hero? Else, the skill seems fine, and the secondaries are, again, awesome Honestly, I really do love your secondary skills so far. (though it could be more, for my taste^^)
I really look forward more skills!
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 18, 2012 10:46 PM |
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Edited by hobo2 at 21:13, 21 Jan 2012.
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OK, put up 15 skills and the preliminary Fire Magic list.
Edit: Also the Air Spells.
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I personally, would like more here. More skill Levels and more Secondary skills. Also: Are there truly only three secondarys??? No choice to be made? I'd dislike that. But thats mainly because i, personally, LOVE to have many things and love to have choices in skill system - like "do I take this or that skill?". Found that a nice idea in H5, yet sometimes, choices were too premade for reasons of some skill sbeing vastly more important than others.
I don't think there is room for more levels of secondary skills. As is, by 30th level (a place where I think it is perfectly reasonable to place an outright level cap and which it is unlikely to even reach outside a long campaign), a hero has 31 skill selections. One for each level 2-30, and 2 to start with. With 3 secondary skills and 3 levels of the primary skill, each skill can be advanced six times. Since you can have 8 skills, that leaves a total of 48 skill advancements to max out the hero.
That means that even if you get to maximum level, if you don't get bonuses from witch's huts / trees of knowledge then you will get the end 17 skills short of completion. That is five, almost six of your eight skills that you don't have any secondaries from if you get to Master in all your primaries. Even if you max out and find a Witch's Hut that trains in every single skill you end up using, you'll still be 9 skills short, and there will be three full skills that you have zero secondary skills from.
Yes, adding more stuff is always attractive. Why can't I get to grandmastery of Fire Magic? Why can't I become even better at Coalition Building? Unfortunately, that route ends up with Heroes IV's skill cluster ^%$#, where it literally took twenty skill advancements just to max out a single skill tree.
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Which four flavours of magic do you have? Or did you write that allready? I do not liek reducing the spell system, as it seams, onto 3 levels, I must say, I like the diversity of levels there!
The flavors are Air, Earth, Water, and Fire. Each has a selection of buffs, debuffs, attacks, utility spells, and summons. I did the Fire Magic first, because it is relatively easy. I might throw in some extra Basic Fire damaging spells to increase the chances of a starting fire mage being able to burn things. Hell Breath (bonus fire damage to a unit), Burning Hands (fire damage to an enemy, but can only target enemies adjacent to one of your units), Bonds of Fire (minor fire damage, movement debuff), and so on.
Having more levels of magic creates dead levels (look at Heroes 3 Fire Magic, for example), and doesn't fit with the skill system. You'd end up having to make there be magic that is "less than basic" that people can learn without a magic skill or something.
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BlueLore
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 22, 2012 12:44 PM |
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My response to the factions:
Well let me say from the beginning that I am not a fan of invented creatures(it doesn't matter who invented them),so I dislike the troglodytes,the Nezumi and the Mi Go(Gnolls are ok,since they are based on werehyenas,but that is just my personal opinion,since I belong to those guys who only like creatures if they are taken from some kind of myth or represent some kind of job(like the crossbowmen,or druids,etc.).
Asylum
Well since it is a faction with only invented creatures(except for the yeti/wendigo),I dislike it,even though the concept of an insect faction is interesting
Bastion
I also think the name sounds more like it would be the orc faction,but otherwise it is ok.
I think that the elven fighter/werewolf should be in a higher tier,because I can't really imagine a werewolf as weak as a footman...
Bazaar
looks good,but I think you should make the main race Kobolds and not Gnomes,since Gnomes are earth elementals in the original myths,so they don't seem to fit that good.And Kobolds are also small magical beings(of course this would mean to take them out of the forge-line-up).
I also think,the Bird maiden is too similar to the harpy,maybe you could replace it with something classic like a Gremlin,but maybe also with vanara(magical ape like creatures from indian mythology)
Dungeon
Well the Beholder belongs to D&D it would be illegal to use its name and I also don't see the connection between the harpy and the dungeon.
I also think that the hydra would fit better into the swamp faction than the dungeon.
Forge
Well many mechanical units,maybe too many already,but then again it is meant to be the mechanical faction.
Fortress
Well again too many invented creatures.I also think that it is kinda weird to have "saurs" in the line-up...
Haven
Nothing really against it even though the wyvern might look a little bit weird.
Hideout
The serpent and spider units sound kinda lame,you should make them kinda special to begin with and the ghost pirate seems out of place
Inferno
The gog is invented,so I dislike it from the beginning^^.
I also think that the horned demon seems kinda uninspired.Why not archdemon,a nightmare or efreet?
Necropolis
I think it is kinda weird to have living humans in the faction,the blackguards could be turned into undead knights or headless horsemen
sanctuary
I don't see the reason for replacing nagas as the main race with the Nezumi,in my opinion the nezumi look rather lame compared to the naga.
Stronghold
The winter theme is nice,but you have already the Mi-Gos with an ice theme,so it isn't really special anymore.
I think that the valkyries seem out of place,I mean they are more or less something like the angels of norse mythology(just not that nice).I can see how they fit with a warrior theme,but they seem out of place if they stand next to the orcs...
Also fenrir is said to be a giant wolf that kills Odin the king of gods himself,it kinda looks lame to make him a low level unit.
Fifth level creatures
Devil: Nice
Black dragon: Can't really imagine a black dragon fighting in the same factions as angels.
Bone Dragon: Well not that impressive as it is simply a dragon,just undead.But otherwise it is a classic creature,so it is ok
Colossus: Sounds good and seems to match the faction that replaces the academy,but I think that the diamond golem would fit more to the Bazaar,while the colossus would fit more to the forge(diamonds looke more magical,while bronze looks more mechanical)
Dhole: Well it is a giant death worm,so it is ok.
Diamond golem: See Colossus above
Force of nature: Well I can't really imagine what it would look like...
Lung:You mean long those chinese dragons?Well nothing against them,but if thats the case whats with the kirin?Would it look more like from the myths?maybe you could replace one of them with a nine-tailed fox,as they are also powerful beings in asian myths.
Mud worm&Solar scarab: Well I can't really see the connection between those two and their factions.They seem to be both rather like creatures of the Asylum
Titan: I don't see the connection between them and the underground faction...
Surtur:I think there are already too many giants in your line-ups,we've got the colossus,the titan,the giant and now surtur,which is a fire giant....
Maybe you could replace the wolf in the fortress line-up with a different unit and make the fenrir the level-5-unit.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 22, 2012 04:15 PM |
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Well let me say from the beginning that I am not a fan of invented creatures(it doesn't matter who invented them)
I don't understand where you're going with this. Tupilak are folkloric Inuit monsters and Chimerae are folkloric Greek monsters that are basically the same thing. Nezumi are Japanese and predate Ninja Turtles, Warhammer, and L5R by centuries. It's just the Japanese word for "rat" which also happens to be their name for "rat people". "Troglodyte" is an ancient word meaning "legendary people who live in caves", and can be considered well grounded in legend whether they are eyeless (as M&M troglodytes are) or not (as D&D troglodytes are). But you say Gnolls are fine, despite the fact that they come from a 1951 story by Margaret St. Clair. By that criteria, shouldn't Byakhee be fine considering that they were used in the stories of dozens of writers in the 20s and 30s and have been faced not only in H.P. Lovecraft mysteries but also by Conan? Your list of liked and disliked monsters seems... excessively random. Some sixty year old monsters get your stamp of approval while other three thousand year old monsters don't on the grounds that they were "invented".
All I can say is "huh"?
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but I think you should make the main race Kobolds and not Gnomes,since Gnomes are earth elementals in the original myths
If we're going to go mythic origin, Kobolds are spirits of mines. Cobalt mines to be precise. Which is why they are blue. In any case, the Might and Magic Gnomes look like Bajorans (The Gnome is on the Left) and have a bonus to "Personality". This makes them good casters and shop keepers, so they are the obvious choice for the Bazaar.
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Well the Beholder belongs to D&D it would be illegal to use its name and I also don't see the connection between the harpy and the dungeon.
Might and Magic has their own beholders that they own. It is obviously not illegal to use them, because they appear in HoMM 3, HoMM 4, Might and Magic VI, Might and Magic VII, King's Bounty: The Legend, King's Bounty: Armored Princess, and King's Bounty: Crossworlds. You'd think that if there was some sort of legal hurdle that the series would have stopped using those monsters some time in the last thirteen years and seven games. As long as Might and Magic uses the Might and Magic Beholder (which has tentacles), it is completely unassailable.
Now Harpies in the Dungeon is a more complex thing. The Harpy of myth has lived in all kinds of places, from forests to caves to mountain tops and even under water. The Dungeon as a terrain is just creatures that live underground. Harpies can fit that bill, but there are also plenty of stories where they don't. Even within Might and Magic, you could go either way. The HoMM 6 Harpy lives in rock strewn deserts while the HoMM 3 Harpy lives in the cavern walls of the Dungeon town. Now the kicker in this case is that the Dungeon Town of Hobo's Heroes VII proposal is specifically Greek. The leaders are Medusas, Minotaurs, and Sibyls. There are Corinthian Columns everywhere and marble statuary in the city squares. Important people in the town wear togas. And so on. So if an extremely Classical Greek monster like the Harpy could fit in, it obviously should. Sure, we could do Forest Harpies in the Bastion instead, but then we'd be making the Celtic Elves more Greek and the Helenistic Dungeon less Greek. Which would be weird.
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The gog is invented,so I dislike it from the beginning^^.
The Gog is... biblical. In the last battle, the forces of hell will raise armies of Gog and Magog. It was invented thousands of years ago. This complaint hurts my brain.
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the blackguards could be turned into undead knights or headless horsemen
The Blackguards are undead knights. The Druzhina come out of the same building and are alive. The upgraded versions are undead knights, the unupgraded version are living human knights.
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I don't see the reason for replacing nagas as the main race with the Nezumi
The "main race" of a town should never be a level 3 creature. The leaders of the town can be level 3 creatures (as in the Dungeon), but the people walking around the town screen should always be level 1 creatures - the guys you can actually build with an unupgraded town. The choices for Sanctuary's "main race" are therefore the Kappa or the Nezumi. Personally, I find the prospect of Nezumi running things much more compelling than the idea of Kappa doing so.
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Colossus: Sounds good and seems to match the faction that replaces the academy,but I think that the diamond golem would fit more to the Bazaar,while the colossus would fit more to the forge(diamonds looke more magical,while bronze looks more mechanical)
I could see switching the Diamond Golem and the Colossus. They are both mindless, so it's not that important what their nominal allegiance is. It only matters for the morale of the rest of the army.
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Titan: I don't see the connection between them and the underground faction...
The Titans are Greek. Moreover, the actual mythical Titans were cast down into Tartarus and actually live underground, where they are imprisoned. The question is not how we can rationalize Titans being part of the underground faction, but how they were ever rationalized as being anything else.
More generally, I'm thinking that for ease of coding and playtest, the fifth level units should probably be paired off into very similar units. So the Bone Dragons and Black Dragons are very similar, obviously, as are the Dholes and Mud Worms, and Colossi and Diamond Golems. Matchups go:
* Black Dragon / Bone Dragon
* Dhole / Mud worm
* Colossus / Diamond Golem
* Titan / Surtur
* Solar Scarab / Force of Nature
* Arch Devil... ?
Having looked at it more carefully, I think that the Lung should be replaced with a Celestial - a giant fat dude with a pig head and a rake. kind of like this. Because that could very plausibly be a unit that moves like a skirmisher and does very large spike damage to be war gamed alongside the Arch Devil.
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted January 22, 2012 04:20 PM |
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Yes, adding more stuff is always attractive. Why can't I get to grandmastery of Fire Magic? Why can't I become even better at Coalition Building? Unfortunately, that route ends up with Heroes IV's skill cluster ^%$#, where it literally took twenty skill advancements just to max out a single skill tree.
Probably thats exactly where my taste differs. I don't WANT the heroes to be able to outmaster in all of their skills, but instead face the choice to be masterous in few skills, yet having not so many, or to be capable of many skills, but not grand in the, thus choosing (spoken in extremes) between specialization or generalization. Also, I like them to have to choose between different secondary skills to focus on one aspect of a main skill, or the others.
Response to some of the things brought in by bluelore:
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looks good,but I think you should make the main race Kobolds and not Gnomes,since Gnomes are earth elementals in the original myths,so they don't seem to fit that good.And Kobolds are also small magical beings(of course this would mean to take them out of the forge-line-up).
I think that depends, but it may come from language differences. I see gnomes as more connected to other elements, which exactly is what differs them from DWARVES - which, in older words/translations, wer named gnomes as well...
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Well the Beholder belongs to D&D it would be illegal to use its name and I also don't see the connection between the harpy and the dungeon.
I also think that the hydra would fit better into the swamp faction than the dungeon.
Connection one for the harp yis - HoMM3?!?!!!!!!!
Connection two, and the more important one is: Greek Mythology, on which hobo bases their Dungeon. This reason also goes for the hydra. For the beholder...HoMM3 used the name and I don't know of any punishment they got for it^^ also...this is a proposal, it will (mos tlikely) not be published and has no commercial or publicative character - thus it's not illegal to use it here I think,, and if one makes their version of HoMM, they can, imho, take an idealistic point of view, doing things which couldn't be done or were unrealistic for releasing a game.
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I don't see the reason for replacing nagas as the main race with the Nezumi,in my opinion the nezumi look rather lame compared to the naga.
making a good faction is not based on or judged by "making 'dem awesomest looking creature 'de base of my awesomest overmighty' faction. I think ambience (=how fitting it all is) and creativity or Classicity (depending on the faction) are important - and the nezumi seem to fit well, imo, so point one is fitted. For point 2, I don't think Naga have the power of a "classical" faction allready so creativity is more important here, I think!
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I think it is kinda weird to have living humans in the faction,the blackguards could be turned into undead knights or headless horsemen
It is interesting and in my view enbroadens the faction to stop it from the old spiral of undeads...
For the valkyrie issue...I think they fit quite well...not worse next to an Orc than they would to the picture of a Nordic Warrior most people have...
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 03:04 AM |
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Asylum
Be interesting to see how this would look in play. I'm guessing a little bit freaky, but that's probably the whole idea behind it, something totally alien.
Bastion
A few too many anthropomorphic creatures for my liking.
Bazaar
Good to see a wizard faction that isn't just built around bloody golems.
Dungeon
Basically a modified version of the HoMM3 Dungeon, which isn't a bad thing since it was one of the most innovative factions in the game.
Forge
Now this is a dwarf faction I like, playing to proper tradition, rather than Tolkien.
Fortress
Pretty nice to see a lizard faction that includes only reptiles.
Haven
Pretty traditional, except for the Wyvern, which, I don't know, just seems out of place in a knight faction, what with the poisoning and all.
Hideout
Looks pretty slapped together, although it's nice to see the Gnoll and Ammut, those guys don't get nearly enough love.
Inferno
Never really liked the 'demons and devils and imps' feel of these sorts of factions.
Necropolis
Good to see an necro. faction that isn't just loaded with undead, after all,those things will need replacing after a while as they moulder away.
Sanctuary
Another slap-together faction by the looks of it.
Stronghold
Orcs and valkyries? I'm sorry, but I can't really see that working.
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hobo2
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 07:23 PM |
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Hideout
Looks pretty slapped together, although it's nice to see the Gnoll and Ammut, those guys don't get nearly enough love.
I take this seriously because I'm not super happy with the level 1 creatures. The Gnoll Marauder stays, but the Spider and the Serpent are both filling the same conceptual role. Thematically it's fairly tightly built on North Africa, something I consider to be fairly self explanatory for a race of Hyena People. Egypt plus Barbary Coast Pirates and it fills up the whole faction.
In the west, with the whole Barbary Pirates deal going on, you have the whole giant spider trickster thing going on. And then of course the connection between Middle Eastern / North African pirates and snakes is fairly obvious. Egyptian Cobras are totally a thing. So I don't really want to dump either the Giant Spider or the Shadow Cobra, but I think I probably should to make it less "Gnoll Marauders and their animal friends" in the opening army.
At the same time though, there are already Gnolls at first level, I don't want the third unit to be "another Gnoll with a different weapon", because that gets into thoroughly repetitive armies. A possibility is to include something like a Wokulo (a West African Dwarf that has backwards feet) or Eloko (a West African gremlin with long claws and fangs) that runs around with a sack. Or a Goli (a magic water buffalo that provides protection for its allies). Or could go with some Egyptian monsters like Bennu (fire birds) or Petsuchos (horned crocodiles).
It's a tough call. The higher levels are very tightly themed actually.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted January 23, 2012 11:29 PM |
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The problem is, the culture itself looks pretty slapped-together to me, I'm having trouble reconciling 'barbary pirate' bits with the 'ancient Egypt' bits.
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