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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 17, 2012 11:06 PM |
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I've no idea what topic you guys are actually discussing.
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 17, 2012 11:14 PM |
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As for Breivik. The only reason you don't understand his actions is because you are labeling him as a inhuman monster, and then attempt to cloud your own attempts at understanding him. A lot of people do, in politics, religion, science, school fair, trading cards. Except you think your reason to think he is "evil incarnated" is more valid than against somebody you play cards against.
Because you want him to be a monster, you think he a alien monster, and because of that, the lack of post modernism forces you to think of his writing as alien text, and then you fail to read it.
what is there to understand? do you really think that someone who resorts to such methods will bring us any positive change? there shouldn't be any justification for what he did, and certainly not any ideologic justification.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted April 17, 2012 11:22 PM |
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And observe people, the logical equaillant of "LALALLALAHA! I CAN'T HEAR YOUR."
What is right, wrong, or anything is irrelevant.
We have a ball.
A peaceful valley.
And some perfectly layered snow in perfect angle for the largest snowball ever created.
Will we ignore what we could learn from this, or shall we just rebuildt and hope nobody will toss down another ball in cry of a solution?
____________
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 17, 2012 11:27 PM |
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Hear your what?
Again what does this have to do with poland and newspaper polls? Please enlighten me, cause I got no clue and I can't read most of the stuff written here without wondering if I'm the stupid one.
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 17, 2012 11:31 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
As for Breivik. The only reason you don't understand his actions is because you are labeling him as a inhuman monster, and then attempt to cloud your own attempts at understanding him. A lot of people do, in politics, religion, science, school fair, trading cards. Except you think your reason to think he is "evil incarnated" is more valid than against somebody you play cards against.
Because you want him to be a monster, you think he a alien monster, and because of that, the lack of post modernism forces you to think of his writing as alien text, and then you fail to read it.
what is there to understand? do you really think that someone who resorts to such methods will bring us any positive change? there shouldn't be any justification for what he did, and certainly not any ideologic justification.
He brought upon change, nobody can deny that, and wether it is positve or not is a rather subjective term. Especially if we leave the individual empathy for a moment, and look towards philosophy: Is it worth sacrafising people today, to make a better future? That's how war is motivated a lot of the time. What if killing somebody will lessen the misery of others? Breivik seems to think that at least, and if you truly believe that a political ideology is truly, truly evil and bad in every way for the world, then it may be worth it.
To just twist around, imagine that it wasn't socialst kids, but a fanatic nazi organisation, who where planning on how to make the life of all jews as bad as possible, preferably exterminating all jews. This is how I think Breivik saw it, but these socialist kids wanted to exterminate the Norwegian people. His precious people. Destroying him. A conspiracy at it's finest, aiming to brainwash the entire population.
Personally, I don't think murder is ever justified, under any circumstance, but I know that my stance on that is a rarity in this day and era.
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 12:11 AM |
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the key would rather be on educating people. they are people who see the dangers and prevent us about them and warn us about the propaganda, etc... but most people seem to just not listen to them (it is possible they aren't even aware of their existence) and who fortunately still don't grab a gun or try to acquire power to impose their ideas.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 12:57 AM |
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Hear your what?
Again what does this have to do with poland and newspaper polls? Please enlighten me, cause I got no clue and I can't read most of the stuff written here without wondering if I'm the stupid one.
you americans need not to worry about our european problems =P
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 01:12 AM |
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it's not an "european problem" <_<
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted April 18, 2012 01:41 AM |
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There are two things you should remember about life in comments sections of the Internet as of 2012:
1) People don't have inhibitions on the Internet. In real life people are, as a rule of thumb, cowards. All of their aggressive emotions come out online to the point that they often end up exaggerating their own opinions without perhaps even knowing it. I think a large portion of those people that were heralding Anders as a hero would settle down and change their mind if they had to visit the morgue and see the dead bodies. It's just that they're angry about life in general, and the angrier you get, the dumber you get.
2) Internet forums/comment sections attract a lot of people that are ****ed up in the head. You shouldn't translate a vote online to necessarily reflecting the general opinion of a demographic. There is always going to be present a large group of people that are largely apathetic and don't leave much of an impression, which is both a blessing and a curse. As I get older, I find myself more and more enjoying the company of apathetic people. They're refreshingly innocent and fun to be around.
So, while I'm not saying you should blow off another advent of extremism as trivial, I can pretty much guarantee that it's not quite as bad as what anecdotal encounters on the Internet would suggest. Have a beer and chill. If things get really bad 10-20 years from now, call me. We'll book a big apartment in Costa Rica, find ourselves some cute 12-year-old girls*, and let the good times roll.
*21-year-old girls. I meant to say 21-year-old girls.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted April 18, 2012 02:27 AM |
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Euro crisis invites political extremism in French vote
The author of the articles takes the stance that the current euro model stinks, which isn't really relevant to the thread, but he also brings up the point that if you want a rough gauge of where people are at on their opinions, just look at the aftermath of the French elections once they're settled. What you are having is a steadily growing population of political minorities. What is also highly relevant that is mentioned in the article is that a significantly larger percentage of young people belong to an extreme party. This suggests that as the years ago by, and as more old people die and more young people hit the voting age, you'll probably see a continuation of the current trend unless something were to change at large that could sway opinions: i.e. unemployment goes down, financial crisis with weaker economies solved or at least set on a clearer path, and countries start to show some decent measure of annual growth. Of course, even if all three of those big issues were to be tackled, hardcore opinions aren't going to disappear, but those things are all lubricants on the shaft. It doesn't seem like any of those things are directly related to brown people, but for less affluent people / emotionally uncontrolled people, they are related, because they need something to blame, and heaven forbid they look in a mirror. Blaming outsiders is so much easier.
So yea, wait for the elections to play out. Then see where people fall.
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"Folks, I don't trust children. They're here to replace us."
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted April 18, 2012 05:41 AM |
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Quote:
As for Breivik. The only reason you don't understand his actions is because you are labeling him as a inhuman monster, and then attempt to cloud your own attempts at understanding him. A lot of people do, in politics, religion, science, school fair, trading cards. Except you think your reason to think he is "evil incarnated" is more valid than against somebody you play cards against.
Because you want him to be a monster, you think he a alien monster, and because of that, the lack of post modernism forces you to think of his writing as alien text, and then you fail to read it.
One (and this is only to see how you would answer/ logic behind your reasoning, not to start an argument), Maybe the one generalizing is you? Maybe you can't understand why this guy did what he did so you have to assure yourself that there was a reason, that he wanted to prove a point, maybe that he even had a point to prove? And so you think that an unknown reason must justify his actions, and by taking this for granted you do not dig any deeper.
Maybe it's because you want him to be something you can understand, since the human mind revolts at the idea that another human being could possibly kill so many simply because he could. Maybe it is this denial of a bloodthirstiness present in very few individuals that makes you take for granted that he has a reason for what he has done?
If any of the above is true about your ideology, then yay for me, brownie point acquired. Honestly, I just want to see what your response is, no judging at all. I also suspect that fully 95% of it will be wrong.
Two: On to the quoted text above! Labeling someone as "Inhuman" is ignorant and evasive (in the context that the individual is not part of the human race and therefore the race is in no way responsible for his actions or his creation), but it does not make what he did "right" in any way, shape or form. Morally, it is always reprehensible to massacre the people he did and such acts should not and morally cannot be allowed if society is to function properly and in an orderly fashion.
And no, I do not label the guy a "monster" or "evil" (Such labels are far too simple and arbitrary), nor do I make him into a bogie man to place my problems on. I just genuinely find the man's ideology to be flawed and revolting. His ideas in practice (if you don't think there are examples, look up "Survivalist cult massacres" in google) propagate hatred, misunderstanding, violence and chaos.
From my moral standpoint, I personally have a high value on human life so murder is just wrong in my books, and mass murder is way out there. Also, I cannot agree that the Abrahamic religions are what breed violence and hatred, as that is bigoted and illogical. To use the words of a smarter man than I (who put it in a shorter and much more intelligent phrase that is apparently the equivalent of "LALALA. I CAN'T HEAR YOU!")
Quote:
there shouldn't be any justification for what he did, and certainly not any ideologic justification.
That being said, this guy is not the problem with any particular society. He is a symptom of a society's problem. People like him are usually from poor, rural, uneducated, politically extreme and violent environments. These are thing present in all societies that consistently cause problems for the society and breed misunderstanding/ racism/ fascism. Punishing him does not solve anything, it just creates a false sense of accomplishment while the cancer that created him sits completely unharmed, breeding more symptoms of its existence like Breivik.
Quote:
you americans need not to worry about our european problems
He said after ranting how Romney would cause WW3 and end human rights as we know them. 
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 08:00 AM |
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Blizz, "extreme party" has a wrong understanding pre-programmed. It's a completely wrong idea of what is actually going down.
Basically, the spectrum of political parties has been the same after WW 2 (with some exceptions).
There has been one big centre-left party, and one big centre-right party plus a couple of smaller ones like Liberals, Communists, or their equivalent on the left.
At that time everything aside the two centre-parties and the Liberals were called "extremist", and that's because the big centre parties covered a very broad spectrum from very conservative to near socialist. The big parties consisted of many wings, and the actual party line depended on inner-party struggles and discussion.
This, however, has changed within the last, well, 30, 35 years. The big centre parties have shrunk itself until there isn't much óf a difference anymore - differences present themselves in very minor things, and that has led to the forming of new parties to fill the vacuum, the shrinking has left.
It's NOT that people are becomning more extremist - it's that more and more people don't find themselves in the once big centre parties which have lost all force of creative change and vision because they have shrunken themselves down.
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 18, 2012 11:08 AM |
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Quote:
There are two things you should remember about life in comments sections of the Internet as of 2012:
1) People don't have inhibitions on the Internet. In real life people are, as a rule of thumb, cowards. All of their aggressive emotions come out online to the point that they often end up exaggerating their own opinions without perhaps even knowing it. I think a large portion of those people that were heralding Anders as a hero would settle down and change their mind if they had to visit the morgue and see the dead bodies. It's just that they're angry about life in general, and the angrier you get, the dumber you get.
Well.. this is awkward ... but actually, I'm a moron in real life too.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 18, 2012 11:12 AM |
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There's always a few fish who are not caught by the net of generalisation.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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OhforfSake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 18, 2012 11:22 AM |
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And that's not even to the credit of the fishies (is that really the plural form of fish?), but because the net is full of snows* for everyone who's different. Ergo the net is a discriminator, the very first step in the process of making terminators!
*wholes
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
And that's not even to the credit of the fishies (is that really the plural form of fish?)
Plural of "fish" is "fish". Yeah, weird 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Nocturnal
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2012 12:19 PM |
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Quote:
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Even many of my own friends relentlessly bash "commies" and "Arabs", considering them the scourge of the world.
I don't know about commies, but when you have 10 millions muslims in your country-and quickly growing-, I would be scared if no one thinks they are potential huge threat. Poland does not have them, I see no reason to worry, they are all in France or UK right now. And we feel it every day, painful.
I recommend Haneke's Caché for you to see the dark side of that thought. You are one step behind to racism. This general French attitude is what France is criticized for mostly. With the most of the best artists living in it, it is painful to see how this European country is called "the racists of Europe"
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 18, 2012 12:22 PM |
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Pfft not much use for France if it's dominated by a foreign culture. Diversity is good 'til it turns into weed or cancer and kills you from inside out. I dare-say that many muslims do not divert/convert to the culture of the country they live in, but slowly impose their own, I'd be happy with a compromise, but it doesn't seem like muslims are willing to give an inch. (again this is generalisation, so bear in mind that not all fishies get caught my net Id est muslims might not even be aware of what they're doing and some may merge seamlessly with frenchie/English culture)
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Shares
Supreme Hero
I am. Thusly I am.
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posted April 18, 2012 01:42 PM |
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Pfft not much use for France if it's dominated by a foreign culture. Diversity is good 'til it turns into weed or cancer and kills you from inside out. I dare-say that many muslims do not divert/convert to the culture of the country they live in, but slowly impose their own, I'd be happy with a compromise, but it doesn't seem like muslims are willing to give an inch. (again this is generalisation, so bear in mind that not all fishies get caught my net Id est muslims might not even be aware of what they're doing and some may merge seamlessly with frenchie/English culture)
And that is bad because... our culture is automatically superior? As I see it we (westerners) seem to be the racist, judgemental and selfrighteous people here.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
Legendary Hero
Scourge of God
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posted April 18, 2012 02:14 PM |
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Superior? Never said such, I simply said that sooner or later the weed is going to kill the flower, whether it wants to or not, it yearns to survive, as does the flower, both have their merits, but together they will be at an impasse.
For me a dandelion is as pretty as any rose, and I love 'em both in equal measure, there's no way for them to mutually co-exist, it's nature, the meek will be killed by the aggressor, irregardless of choice, its survival and the survival of its offsprings depends on the killing of the rose.
This happens if there's no compromise, and I said I'd welcome compromise, so I don't quite get the nature of your post. Then again people see what they want to see in another's words
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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