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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: Do you plan to buy Pirates of the Savage Sea?
Thread: Do you plan to buy Pirates of the Savage Sea? This thread is 6 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT»
xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 18, 2012 11:09 AM
Edited by xerox at 11:11, 18 Jun 2012.

I just don't see how the game will get better and the series progress
if people are being overwhelmingly negative on purpose.

And now I was one of those people who during the beta told all the "Well, let's wait and see if things improve..."-guys that when the game is released, there won't be any town screens, the balance will be broken and you will be hugely disappointed. (In the beta, people kept saying that the town windows were a beta thing when it in my opinion was very clear from the start that we were getting those and not roper town screens)

The difference now is that we are actually seeing progress. We are now seeing the town screens, we are seeing them patching regurarly, we are seeing them improve multiplayer/custom games, we are seeing them fixing the last major bugs and we are seeing them now starting to focus on the balance while at the same time giving us the option to support the series and play an additional campaign while we wait for the expansion.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted June 18, 2012 11:33 AM
Edited by The_Polyglot at 11:33, 18 Jun 2012.

Quote:
...

And now I was one of those people who during the beta told all the "Well, let's wait and see if things improve..."-guys that when the game is released, there won't be any town screens, the balance will be broken and you will be hugely disappointed...

The difference now is that we are actually seeing progress. We are now seeing the town screens, we are seeing them patching regurarly, we are seeing them improve multiplayer/custom games, we are seeing them fixing the last major bugs and we are seeing them now starting to focus on the balance while at the same time giving us the option to support the series and play an additional campaign while we wait for the expansion.


Yes, among others I was hopeful during the beta, yes I have made excuses for Ubihole, and yes, I ended up disappointed. The main difference is that then they were developing a beta, not patching a released product. There was still the chance to make them think long and carefully about what they intended to do with H6 before it went public. Now, the ground rules are set, and the best they can do is damage control.
The thing is, due to dev problems/dev change this has been considerably delayed, and the boons You speak of are not yet present ingame. Yes, I have high hopes for patch 1.5 as stated above, but I have to see if Limsoft delivers on its promises before I can make any further decisions regarding the game as a whole, because Ubi has betrayed my trust time and time again. DLCs should complement a game that can stand on its own legs, not one that has yet to reach its full potential.  

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 18, 2012 02:38 PM
Edited by War-overlord at 15:19, 18 Jun 2012.

As much as I hate to admit it, The_Polyglot has a good point.
For all that Ubisoft and Limbic are trying to show a good side, they have yet to deliver. We have yet to see whether Patch 1.5 is up to scratch.
That still does not mean that I will change my earlier standpoint. Or that I withdraw my support for Xerox' view, that many here are being excessively negative. That threads like this could do with a lot less bile-spewing. And that many are rather naive on how big publishers conduct business. And I would like it to be known that I also support DagothGares in his view that many are feeling overly entitled.
And for those that say, like The_Polyglot above here, that Ubisoft betrayed their trust by delivering Heroes VI as it has happened, let me say you this. Apart from the gamebreaking bugs, which was indeed shamefull to have a game shipped in such a state and which have been for the gross fixed, is it truely your trust that has been betrayed? Or was it that you expected AAA quality from a game, that is and has been an A-budget game at best?

Addendum:
For those simply outraged by the price of the DLC (10 euros or your local equivalent), are you realy, then, part of the audience that the Video-Game-market is aimed for? For video-games are aimed at people in countries that have long had a capitalist economy. People in the Original NATO Countries, Germany, Japan, Korea, Australia and New-Zealand. For in countries like this, 10 euros is about an hour's wage or less if you're over 20. Making an 'investment' like this, trivial at best.
So should you be that outraged about the price, if you're not part of the aimed market?
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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted June 18, 2012 03:12 PM

@War-overlord: I expected no more and no less of H6 than to be at least as good as its predecessor. Due to various reasons which I feel are inappropriate to elaborate on in this thread, it failed. Snowtacularly. Yes, I feel Ubi has betrayed my trust they had earned by doing the HoMM series justice with the fifth installment. Based on this trust, I preordered HVI months before release... a decision which I regret to this day. While I believe that H6 has lots of untapped potential, and I hope that eventually it will surface thanks to Limbic's efforts, I refuse to pump more money into the franchise before that happens, and I consider DLCs released in the meantime to be distasteful attempts at cash cow milking.

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OmegaDestroyer
OmegaDestroyer

Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
posted June 18, 2012 03:20 PM

I'll give it a shot.  With the exception of the Heroes Chronicles, I own every game and expansion of the Heroes series.  
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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 18, 2012 03:45 PM

Quote:
@War-overlord: I expected no more and no less of H6 than to be at least as good as its predecessor. Due to various reasons which I feel are inappropriate to elaborate on in this thread, it failed. Snowtacularly. Yes, I feel Ubi has betrayed my trust they had earned by doing the HoMM series justice with the fifth installment. Based on this trust, I preordered HVI months before release... a decision which I regret to this day. While I believe that H6 has lots of untapped potential, and I hope that eventually it will surface thanks to Limbic's efforts, I refuse to pump more money into the franchise before that happens, and I consider DLCs released in the meantime to be distasteful attempts at cash cow milking.

Again, this sounds more like an issue of living up to expectations than trust.
You expected Heroes VI to live up to the standards of Heroes V TotE, for assumption's sake as Heroes V vanilla was as much "a diamond in the rough". And Heroes VI failed in that regard, due to reasons we all know well enough. And I am not trying to say that you were wrong to expect the standards to live up to past successes. Just that Trust, here, is something of a bad choice of words as it implies many things that not of the issue here.

Another issue is how much justice there is in calling this Cash Cow Milking. For I do not believe that Might and Magic is a Cash Cow franchise. Especially when looking at the definitions of Cash Cow. If we look at Wikipedia for example, a Cash Cow is defined as such.
Quote:
In business, a cash cow is a product or a business unit that generates unusually high profit margins: so high that it is responsible for a large amount of a company's operating profit. This profit far exceeds the amount necessary to maintain the cash cow business, and the excess is used by the business for other purposes.

Now if we look as Might & Magic as a franchise, we can definitely say that it is profitable. But that is about the point where the comparisson ends, for none of the "above quoted boxes are ticked". Might & Magic might be popular, but it is marginally so. It will not reach the scale of things like Assassin's Creed, Raymann, Prince of Persia, Tom Clancy's whatever or Brothers in Arms to name a few franchises which contribute, I would hazard, substantially more.
I am not trying to say that this is not a way for Ubisoft to generate an extra wad of cash. That is obviously what it is. And whether that is to fund further development or simply to market a very low risk product, that is not the issue I am debating here.
Is there justice is spitefully overblowing something that into something that it is, in my point of view fairly obviously, not.
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Quique30
Quique30


Adventuring Hero
posted June 18, 2012 03:56 PM

Quote:
As much as I hate to admit it, The_Polyglot has a good point.
For all that Ubisoft and Limbic are trying to show a good side, they have yet to deliver. We have yet to see whether Patch 1.5 is up to scratch.
That still does not mean that I will change my earlier standpoint. Or that I withdraw my support for Xerox' view, that many here are being excessively negative. That threads like this could do with a lot less bile-spewing. And that many are rather naive on how big publishers conduct business. And I would like it to be known that I also support DagothGares in his view that many are feeling overly entitled.
And for those that say, like The_Polyglot above here, that Ubisoft betrayed their trust by delivering Heroes VI as it has happened, let me say you this. Apart from the gamebreaking bugs, which was indeed shamefull to have a game shipped in such a state and which have been for the gross fixed, is it truely your trust that has been betrayed? Or was it that you expected AAA quality from a game, that is and has been an A-budget game at best?


Well, I will tell you my personal experience with this game that will clarify my "overly entitled" standpoint. (And because DagothGares especifically alludes to my previous post).

I'm one of those gamers that will pay more for extra in-game stuff (extra heroes, weapons, skins, etc.). I would gladly buy the Diablo 3 Collector's edition for the angel wings alone (purely aesthetic), for example. With that in mind, I preordered the H6 Digital Collector's Edition, which would give me access to exclusive weapons and heroes. To my surprise, reading the official forums, I discovered that people were gaining access to this stuff at no monetary or dynasty points cost, by creating maps containing them or exploring certain random artifact spots in the campaign.

Now, I don't care that people that exploited this bug(?) were obtaining exclusive content that they didn't pay for, or that they were able to do so without expending dynasty points (putting me at a disadvantage). For all I care, they can keep those. But for me, it felt like I was lied at, at the very least, and robbed, at worst. To add insult to injury, one of the official forum moderators decided to delete the threads discussing this problem, so I was left with nowhere to complain and nowhere to be heard.

Of course, I didn't get any kind of compensation, or even an apology. So yes, I feel like they owe me.

If you then add the retardedly high amount of bugs and the retardedly slow response to solve them, DRM policy, lack of communication for a whole lot of time, etc... well, you get the picture. I don't feel like I should throw my money at them blindly in the hopes to save the franchise, because I feel like the it's them, first and foremost, that are doing the most to kill it.

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted June 18, 2012 04:38 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 16:40, 18 Jun 2012.

Quote:
For those simply outraged by the price of the DLC (10 euros or your local equivalent), are you realy, then, part of the audience that the Video-Game-market is aimed for? For video-games are aimed at people in countries that have long had a capitalist economy. People in the Original NATO Countries, Germany, Japan, Korea, Australia and New-Zealand. For in countries like this, 10 euros is about an hour's wage or less if you're over 20. Making an 'investment' like this, trivial at best.
So should you be that outraged about the price, if you're not part of the aimed market?
If you read the topic again, you'll find people living in countries that "have long had a capitalistic economy" (whatever that's supposed to mean) outraged by the price so I guess not everybody is having the same happy-go-lucky attitude towards his/her spendings as you.
You see, there's a principle involved here, not everything is "why shouldn't I buy it if I have enough money", fortunately. And in any case - why should anyone give a single penny to a someone who shows only disrespect to him/her? What's your logic about this?

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KingImp
KingImp


Famous Hero
posted June 18, 2012 04:43 PM

I voted no. To me it's not the price, but more the principle of it all which I'm going to go more into detail in the official DLC thread.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted June 18, 2012 05:11 PM

@War-overlord: If someone not only does a good job, but even improves during the course of a considerable period of time, would You not eventually come to trust that person to do their job well in the future? Sugarcoat it all You like, but preordering an unfinished product is by nature an act of trust, since by preordering, one implies that whatever the end result turns out to be, one's already on board no matter what. Suppose that one invests in Apple stocks, thinking that since its value has steadily increased for quite some time, it will continue to do so. How do You think this person would feel if immediately after he bought his share, the value would start dropping because of a series of bad decisions of the management? Would he be likely to make additional investments in that stock before the management's mistakes are corrected? The comparison may be extreme, but that's roughly how I feel about H6 now. I need proof that H6 is in good hands, not another bunch of empty promises and pinkie swears.

PS: By milking the cash cow, I meant any venture from which one profits without doing any serious work to warrant such a profit,(*cough Horse armor cough*)  please forgive me if it was unclear. I realize H6 may not be a fat cow,(however much it plays like one ) but it is a cow nevertheless, as Ubihole confirmed multiple times that it is selling well, if I recall correctly.


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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted June 18, 2012 05:35 PM

Quote:
If you read the topic again, you'll find people living in countries that "have long had a capitalistic economy" (whatever that's supposed to mean) outraged by the price so I guess not everybody is having the same happy-go-lucky attitude towards his/her spendings as you.
You see, there's a principle involved here, not everything is "why shouldn't I buy it if I have enough money", fortunately. And in any case - why should anyone give a single penny to a someone who shows only disrespect to him/her? What's your logic about this?

It is simply a consideration.
If one is outraged by the pricing of something, one might, and IMO should, consider if one is realy part of the targeted market. I never intended to say, and if you read carefully I never have, that everyone who dislikes the price is a resident of a non-traditionally capitalistic country. Countries in which 10 euros is a trivial amount of money for people with at least a part-time job, which is that which I was driving at. For people for whom 10 euros isn't a trivial amount of money, they should consider whether this specific product is marketed for them. And whether the pricing of products of which they are not part of the targeted market is a justifiable reason for their outrage. (And people claiming that Ubisoft are "Capitalist Pigs" feeds the idea that the issue which some people have, is resentment of the way economic wealth is distributed over the world.)
As for the question "why should anyone give a single penny to a someone who shows only disrespect to him/her?" is rather irrelevant to the underlying question of "Why the anyone ("fans") in question feels personally offended by the practices of the someone in question(Ubisoft), considering that the practices referred to are calculations and accepted practices in the field of the someone(publishers)?" Or in other words, "Why do consumers feel personally offended, when they are treated as consumers?"

Quote:
@War-overlord: If someone not only does a good job, but even improves during the course of a considerable period of time, would You not eventually come to trust that person to do their job well in the future? Sugarcoat it all You like, but preordering an unfinished product is by nature an act of trust, since by preordering, one implies that whatever the end result turns out to be, one's already on board no matter what. Suppose that one invests in Apple stocks, thinking that since its value has steadily increased for quite some time, it will continue to do so. How do You think this person would feel if immediately after he bought his share, the value would start dropping because of a series of bad decisions of the management? Would he be likely to make additional investments in that stock before the management's mistakes are corrected? The comparison may be extreme, but that's roughly how I feel about H6 now. I need proof that H6 is in good hands, not another bunch of empty promises and pinkie swears.

PS: By milking the cash cow, I meant any venture from which one profits without doing any serious work to warrant such a profit,(*cough Horse armor cough*)  please forgive me if it was unclear. I realize H6 may not be a fat cow,(however much it plays like one ) but it is a cow nevertheless, as Ubihole confirmed multiple times that it is selling well, if I recall correctly.

I would agree that a preorder is, by nature, an act of placing trust or having confidence in their abilities to supply a the product that was promised. However, past behaviour and results are no guarantee for future results, merely an indicator.
As far as your comparison goes, both preordering a product before it's release and investing in stocks brings with it a considerable risk. I would agree that the failing of a product is the fault of it's producers. However, the investor takes the risk of investing and should be aware of the risk he takes. If you gamble and loose, do you throw a tantrum and assert that the roulette wheel is fixed, or do you take your loss, because you realise the gamble you have taken. One that takes a risk, but is not able to take the loss when the risk does not pay off, should ask oneself whether one was wise to take that risk.

As far as your milking a the cow for the milk she has. One has to wonder whether it is wrong to milk a cow in the first place.
As I, and DagothGares, have stated before, the upcoming DLC is rather content heavy for it's price. As I have said before, most 10 euro DLC only promise 2-3 hours of extra gameplay. Or only offer some aesthetic fluff. I would say that offering a full new campaign requires substantially more effort than a simple retexturing.
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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted June 18, 2012 05:44 PM

Crag Hack isn't a redhead. As a consumber, I am deeply offended.
If they haven't even got their basic s*** together by the time the DLC is released,
then it's not unfounded to assume that the DLC will be equally rushed or worsen the already sad state of affairs.

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The_Polyglot
The_Polyglot


Promising
Supreme Hero
Nuttier than squirrel poo
posted June 18, 2012 06:12 PM

@War-overlord: I know that preordering is risky, and by doing so, I embraced that risk. I was merely trying to point out that given the present quality of H6, I will not take further risks by buying the DLC.
You know what they say: Fool me once shame on You, fool me twice shame on me.

As much as I enjoyed our argument, I suggest that we either wrap up, or continue it elsewhere, as I fear we are derailing this thread.

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Quique30
Quique30


Adventuring Hero
posted June 18, 2012 06:19 PM

Quote:
"Why the anyone ("fans") in question feels personally offended by the practices of the someone in question(Ubisoft), considering that the practices referred to are calculations and accepted practices in the field of the someone(publishers)?" Or in other words, "Why do consumers feel personally offended, when they are treated as consumers?"


What?! I can't belive you just said that...

You are implying we should justify and tolerate abuse because it's expected from publishers to abuse their customers? Oh sorry! They are not abuse, they are calculations and accepted practices...Right!

After you called us naive before for not knowing how publishers deal with their customers, I have only to offer my sympathies to you if that's the way you're used to being treated. Well, I'm not. And I can assure you I buy lots of games. Last one being Warlock: Master of the Arcane, which is a $20 game (!) with nearly no bugs, DLC's in the $2-3 range, content being added and fixes being made regularly, and published by a publisher (Paradox). I know, that's evil!

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Thanatoeil
Thanatoeil


Adventuring Hero
posted June 18, 2012 06:48 PM

The reason why I won't buy this DLC is :
- if a lot of people buy this DLC, the message sent to Ubi will be : "You don't need to spend money fixing the bugs, as you can spend money developping DLC that will be bought."
- if nobody buys this DLC, the message will be : "Before hoping earning money with add-ons, fix the bugs."

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Habitus
Habitus

Tavern Dweller
posted June 18, 2012 06:56 PM

I doubt I'll buy it at 10 euros unless there is afair bit more included than is so far known. 5, maybe even 7 euros and I'd be more willing to buy it with whats known.

I agree with what you said about a small project first before a larger one due to still patching/fixing vanilla and the company being smaller than normal for HoM&M game.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 18, 2012 07:33 PM

But the whole making maps instead of fixing bugs is complete BS. You can not make that argument. Marzhin is not the guy who is fixing bugs and making balance. He makes maps and is probably one of the biggest contributers to the DLC.

I don't get why people are mad.
The price? Even for me who lives off my parents and wellfare from school its nothing. Actually, it looks like it has a good enjoyment gained/money spent value.

That the game isn't complete? Yes, it still needs patching and they ARE patching the game. They can patch the game and make DLC:s at the same time.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted June 18, 2012 08:04 PM
Edited by Zenofex at 20:19, 18 Jun 2012.

Quote:
The price? Even for me who lives off my parents and wellfare from school its nothing.
You gotta love it when the question contains the answer.
If you re-read the thread you will find plenty of reason different from the price why the DLC should not be bought. Just start reading.
Quote:
For people for whom 10 euros isn't a trivial amount of money, they should consider whether this specific product is marketed for them. And whether the pricing of products of which they are not part of the targeted market is a justifiable reason for their outrage. (And people claiming that Ubisoft are "Capitalist Pigs" feeds the idea that the issue which some people have, is resentment of the way economic wealth is distributed over the world.)
Look, Ubisoft are not releasing games in vacuum so it's pretty easy to tell if they are just greedy pigs or stick to the standard market prices. If other companies can release DLCs with a lot more content for lower prices, then this particular DLC is overpriced, period. Ever heard of free DLCs? Check The Witcher 2, a game which among other things have never had even 1/10 of the problems that Heroes VI still has. Frankly the only thing that's stopping me from making a campaign of 3-4 maps and selling it on the Internet for 10 euro  apiece is that the editor is Ubisoft property - what else stops me or any other person from doing so? The DLC offers nothing else, save some artifacts and heroes, i.e. irrelevant padding. Would you buy the campaign if it was made by a non-Ubisoft person?
Quote:
As for the question "why should anyone give a single penny to a someone who shows only disrespect to him/her?" is rather irrelevant to the underlying question of "Why the anyone ("fans") in question feels personally offended by the practices of the someone in question(Ubisoft), considering that the practices referred to are calculations and accepted practices in the field of the someone(publishers)?" Or in other words, "Why do consumers feel personally offended, when they are treated as consumers?"
You've already been answered, that's a complete nonsense. If you think that consumer = brainless milch cow, the problem is yours.

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xerox
xerox


Promising
Undefeatable Hero
posted June 18, 2012 10:06 PM
Edited by xerox at 22:08, 18 Jun 2012.

Yet the Witcher 2 enhanced edition, which pretty much IS a DLC, is priced as a full game.

Personally I'd would have no problems actually paying a few euros for well made mods or campaigns.
____________
Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill

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Zenofex
Zenofex


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
posted June 18, 2012 10:21 PM

The Witcher 2 enhanced edition is free (zero, null, nada) if you already own the game. Do your homework before making claims.

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