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| Thread: Total Tactics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 06, 2001 06:40 PM |
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Life
Perhaps Anfi,
Just never have seen a game where I couldn't find some kind of combo to stop it.
There is just too much in the game that is anti hit and run.
As I mentioned I will plan against this tactic from day1.
I almost always look for castle,inferno,dungeon to build to give me first strike, even if I can only buy one arc angel and nothing from my first town I will do that rather than fall to this tactic.
I always am looking in the artifact merchant to find gloves, boots of speed and magic resistance and speed artifacts.
I find it funny that some of the same people who say "no hit and run" are the same who say "no logistics hero" when logistics hero is the number one deterrant to hit and run.
Anyway let's get this back to the blind thing.
Reanimator is one of the great strategic minds I have ever played. If you get a chance to play him you should. I always learn a lot.
I thought I had him a couple of games back by blinding all his units. When I had blinded 4 of them he cast a low level death ripple which damaged everything on the field.
He was inferno. It was only through planning ahead and hiring septienne on day1 and also a scholar to teach the spell to his heroes.
This type of day1 planning is true mastery of the game. With this one subtle move on day1 he pulled the game from the jaws of defeat on day 21. Kudos to you for a great move.
-Mocara
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 06, 2001 09:36 PM |
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In this debate about hit and run I haven't quite figured out when it is that most people have a problem with it. Of the three choices I can see (having your castle h/r, somewhere in open map, being h/r right before you attack opps castle) I can only imagine the third choice ever generating some (albeit little) legitimate concern. And even in this case you should rarely have to worry about being h/r more than one time - and we can all live with that. Since this seems so simple to avoid I almost fear to write it out here on the grounds of stating the obvious. Unfortunately, I've found through the years that many people miss obvious things in this game.
The key to avoid being h/r repeatedly in this case is simply to place your attacking hero no more than two or three spaces less than your maximum movement from your opps castle (so that in case your opp throws out blocker heroes you can still get to the castle). Even if the enemy hero then had a base movement of 20 + logistics + arts, he would only get to blast you with his superhero no more than twice. If you yourself have logistics than you can place yourself even further away and possibly avoid getting blasted at all.
Another thing you can do is throw out blocker heroes yourself that have a few fast units so that when the superhero comes out from his castle he has to either bring a bigger army (to which you can just h/r) or go around them somehow and not get more than one h/r on your super-hero.
There are a few more things you can do, but there's probably little point in my posting them as i'm sure they're either already known or you disallow h/r and wouldn't need them anyway.
And I'm willing to bet Mocara has taught me far more than he's learned from me.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 07, 2001 05:13 AM |
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Wasted time
Rean...they know these things I'm sure.
Just the people who complain about it are just too lazy to prevent it as you explained.
Like the guy who didn't know how to measure his own heroes logistics and came up one short of my town.
If you are that stupid then you deserve to be hit and ran.
It is so easy to stop that you literally have to walk right into it.
I like this thread so lets get it back to tactical ideas.
We already ran that hit and run thing into the ground.
Hey I have a question about tactics.
I recently played someone who everytime they attacked my castle, their first ballista shot would wipe out my middle turret and the second would crash my door open.
I have played a gazillion games and never seen this. Anyone else seen it?
If so how the hell do you do it? =)
Also is there any advantage to aiming your ballista with expert ballistics?
It always seems to just go anywhere it wants anyway, right?
There, now we are back on track.
-Mocara
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 07, 2001 10:02 AM |
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Exp Ballistics has percentages of hitting the aimed target. I don't really remember them, but i think with expert you have a 20 or 30 % chance of hitting the target you aimed at. I don't remember fully, it's in the book under the description of the ballistics skill.
Your opponent mocara just got real lucky. I had a game where a hero with basic ballistics opened my castle door first shot.
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thunderknight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 07, 2001 11:50 AM |
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Ballista
I only know that in the older version of homm, when you aim at main arrow tower, you will "always" hit the lower tower.
(I think many people already know it !) 
It seems this "bug" has got fixed in later version. I have no idea how can you "always" make your ballista shot "effective". Maybe that guy is just luck (is he an Irish???  )
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted May 07, 2001 04:16 PM |
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More of the Same :)
Moc, I have had people take out my main tower on first shot also, I sure would like to know where they are aiming that catapult myself 
Next, beating on a dead horse here, but in my game last night I had a funny experience.
HG2 map both of us had 2 confluxes built by end week 2, so U can imagine the huge army both of us had. For some reason we both stayed on our own sides until month 2 rolled around,(trying to afford all the troops we had is main reason i think) I was ready to go for him but his stats were about half again to twice mine.
I then noticed the crystal dragons would join me for 80K, so I spent a couple more days squeezing the last cash out of my side and picked them up. Since he isnt coming for me I continue to his side, Killing 4 or so scouts on the way up to his castle. I was careful to not wear my shackles, pendant negativity, armour damned or recanters cloak in battles with his scouts (trying to keep my little suprise which was about the only hope I had) So I am going for his castle next turn and put all my goodies on, shackles included in case he wants to leave castle and come for me, the battle will at least end one way or another instead of draggin out all night.
Well he does attack on his turn, But not with 2 confluxes worth of troops! he comes to hit me with his 3000K+ implosion to soften me up on the way to his castle. But all he has for troops are flies, lizardmen, dendroids, mummies ect. i.e. trash troops. You can imagine the grin on my face and the shock on his when first he experiences armour damned slowing and cursing everyone, I then take out everyone except a couple mummies and dendroids. now he gets to move with about 4 mummies and 7 trees his only troops left, first no implosion (recanters) then he realizes the game is over when he cannot surrender (shackles) I'm still laughing. although I was deprived a good battle
Funny thing was he was superior to me in all stats, kinda stupid to pull a "total tactic" move like that
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Winner or Whiner?
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arachnid
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted May 07, 2001 05:36 PM |
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great story zud! Bet he will think twice about doing that from now on!
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted May 07, 2001 06:25 PM |
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So now he is on your dreaded "won't play" list we hear so much about?
And you said you were all smiles. Doesn't that constitute a good battle?
Or does it have to be tons of troops to be a good battle?
Anyway it just illustrates my point about how difficult hit and run is to do.
Way too many things to stop it.
The only thing more foolish than someone who allows themselves to be hit and ran is the person who just runs in on a hero they know nothing about and ends up getting killed that way.
Sounds to me like that was a great way to end a game and if all you want is the battle then just say "Load the save and let's fight in the middle for fun!"
I've hit and ran on people many a time when I pretty sure I could take them in a slugfest.
I know these are just make believe troops but why have casualties when you can avoid it?
I just played a game w/Bobby Ohms and he wanted a random map.
We started and wouldn't you know we are 3 days from each other and he has tower and I dungeon.
So I get hordes of master gremlins on my door wk1.
This was an obvious move so I built in this manner
1)Level 1 Guild
2)Town Hall
3)Marketplace
4)Blacksmith
5)City Hall
6)Vortex
7)Evil eyes(needed something equal to his gremlins speed)
So he gets by my town and I rock him w/Deemer (pun intended).
He was a good sport about it but you could tell he was upset. But truly, outside of sitting in my town and hoping he attacked me and got cut down by my turrets while allowing him to take all my mines and resources I had no recourse.
Hit and run is the great equalizer in a mismatch like this and it is mainly in situations like this when one player is so greedy that they lose sight of what they could be walking into.
It's not always about building dragons faster. It's about overall adapting to the situation and when you are outgunned like that I suppose the "honorable" thing to so is roll over and die?
I don't think so.
Anyway, Bobby didn't know I had dimension door on day3. A scroll I found in his snow because he didn't attack me the day before (I would have been dead).
So I could have hopped over his head and won the game that way I suppose but he did a good job leaving dessa in his town most of the time, fully armed.
Oh yeah, Dessa. Logistics hero. Isn't that dishonorable on most peoples zone rooms =)
My point is using Dessa and gremlin rushing is a good tactic.
And so is what I did to counter it.
Let's steer it back once more before we talk about hit and run too much.
Did you guys notice you can cast precision on your catapult?
I wonder if this would give us greater chance of wiping out turrets?
Does anyone know?
I don't play single player ever so I have not tested it.
Too lazy I suppose but if it upped your hance to hit the vital turrets it could be really cool.
-Mocara
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 07, 2001 08:26 PM |
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About that ballistics - you have a better chance of hitting what you aim at when you attack walls instead of turrets. I think when you aim at the walls (or drawbridge) you have a 60% chance of hitting the spot you pick, whereas aiming at a turret will give you a 40% chance. For some reason I've noticed that when I aim at the drawbridge and break it open with my first shot, my second shot seems more often than not to take out one of the turrets.
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted May 09, 2001 04:32 AM |
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I know some scoff....but I chuckle
I love it Zud. This is one of the primary reason I think people need not make a no H/R rule. You never know how things like that will work out. That's how things go sometimes I think it is a darn shame he makes your no play list for that though, or are you still putting people on for using what they think are their best options? Or do you do that more for when people are making a complete game out of coming over to pop you? Not sure what the standard is.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 11, 2001 04:58 PM |
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ghost dragon hit&run
There are many dif hit&run tactics- usually the ghost dragon hit&run is a tactic of last resort, when you are desperate and facing an opponent who could overwhelm you. Usually done when you lack any good spells. It can be very effective however- it is extremely expensive! I don't find Ghosts that much use in battle with Necro, the skeletons are either enough or they are not, so oftentimes I don't mind sacrificing a few of them. Attacking with my fastest hero with stables speed(if it can be arranged)and 7 ghost dragons- I have tried this and failed to get even 1 halving attack, and I have done it and had 3 of the 7 attacks halve the stacks, usually it is 1 or 2. Still, that attack is even more useful in larger maps. Some maps you might not meet yor opponent until mid month 3 when you have several towns and lots of gold, many times the Ghost halving the stack does more damage than even Implosion when dealing with huge armies. I've only had a few games like this, but it is immensely satisfying to attack with a weak hero and a measly 7 Ghosts and take out 2/3's of enemy armies best unit.
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted May 11, 2001 09:02 PM |
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Ichon
Ichon, this avatar was claimed be me before, please choose another one.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 12, 2001 09:11 AM |
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Ok
Yeah, didn't see that when I first registered. NP
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 01:40 AM |
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really cool tactic
one of the coolest tactics i ever heard of was told to me by pandora. And it was the compo that pulled it on her!! she told me she against Crag Hack and he had a womping number of Vamp Lords. Now what Hack would be doing with a large number of VL's i don't know, but what he supposedly proceeded to do with em, the telling of which, truly amazed me! Pan told me that first thing Compo Hack did was cast expert counterstrike. In one fell swoop!! Almost indestructable Vamp lords!! Imagine?! counterstriking Crag Hack amped up VL's!! Been dieing to try the tactic online ever since i heard of it!!
ps. i even asked jb to creat a map where any heroe you want could get necro to have a good chance of trying it! was also neat having Loynus with necro!!
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 07:45 AM |
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Reviewing this thread=
I didn't read it totally before and now I see I'll have to defend the viability of hit&run again.
Many of the tactics mentioned to counter hit&run were good, the best one in my mind being other blocking heroes. However, I still think hit&run can do much damage. Who needs 3000 Implosions? I've hardly ever hit&run with a spell that powerful. Usually I hit&run with lightening or meteor shower, those are my two favorites because they are the easiest to get in the game. Meteor comes either in guild or the chance to get 2 different heroes with it. I also always build scholar hero every single game even if I start with Jeddite or Solmyr- it's payed off so many times.
Now, Recanters or Resistance artifacts are probably the best shields outside of blocking/intercepting heroes. Recanters can't block Lightening however- also, I usually hit&run as early in the game as possible. Preferrably before the 7th levels are upgraded. A hero with 6-7 power and at least a basic magic is perfect for hit&run. Usually in week 2 your opponent is running around with mostly 7th's, 6th's and possibly their best ranged unit- the key is to make multiple hit&run heroes. 3-4 at least. Send some idiot heroes towards oppponent to absord their blocking heroes, then send in the hit&run heroes. Sure, you talk about boots of speed and alway staying out of range, but what if I park 2-3 heroes near the center of the map and another 1 or 2 next to a nice arty? I'll still have 3 left, if my main has logistics and a travel arty chaining isn't as important and I might sacrifice my other 2 heroes to draw out blocking hero of opponent. As long as I keep my hit&run heroes supplied with 7 fast units, they will usually beat any intercepting heroes with only loss of some mana, and how long can they pin the main hero? I like hit&run not so much even for the damage they cause directly, but because they force my opponent to react to me. Whichever part of the map I have them roaming in, my opponent has to be more careful in that area.
If it's later in the game and they are having Dragons perhaps, then I hope they think to get away with only traveling with the dragons. I've killed more enemies who were trying to travel light for extra speed than any other way in this game. I like sudden quick week 2 attacks in the open. I will hardly ever wait for a siege or attempt a siege unless I am either much weaker than opponent, or much stronger. If I approach his castle with a group of hit&runs and also my main mixed with scouts, I'll lose some heroes, he'll lose some heroes, but he will probably put his main in castle. If I chain correctly I can wreak havoc on his resources and still escape my main leaving him only to chase hit&run heroes whom actually I want him to try and take out.
The only bad thing about Hit&run strategy is the expense. usually I build towards Capitol rather than units. If someone tries to take me out quick, that build also goes towards castle, and it's obvious within 2-4 days of week 1 if they are trying to take you out quick. Of course, almost all games I play everyone wants to ban hit&run- I guess I understand because if someone swarms you and makes it their entire strategy, it's hard to counter without doing the same thing. Then it is a battle of gold supply which is mostly resource management and map movement to take all the bonus gold locations first.
One last thing, the longer the game is the more often I will build more than one main hero. It's amazing how much experience you can split and still get relatively high level heroes. I'd rather have two level 10 heroes than only one level 14-15. Secondly, I've noticed many people use their main hero in alot of the battles- I think the more skilled player you are, the less often this is true, but even for many skilled players I've seen them do it if they think a battle will be tough or just to get main hero some experience. I usually don't even bother to send the hero who will be my main into any battles week 1 unless unavoidable, I try to send that hero to all bonus locations straight away, then put him in place for day 1 week 2 to take on the most dangerous monsters guarding best artifact or the path to opponents or wherever. Of course some maps don't have many extra bonus locations or if I play Necro I tend to fight with main more often. Also there is always random luck factor- the very last game I played we went random and I got Stronghold with Craig Hack, my opponent was Dungeon with Jeddite. Well, there were 4 Comp opponents on this map and one was anotehr Dungeon. I didn't even bother taking anything except my mines then chaining to the only hero I had with Logistics, Pyre I think it was. Anyway I had her moving toward the Comp who was also dungeon, she reached it about 1 day away on week 2 day 2. Well, suddenly Deemer came out of the Comp castle and attacked me. Somehow he had 14 spell power(I think artifact in the ocean near his castle)and meteored my army twice. Well, I didn't even bother to play that game, but surrendered. For the first time ever I didn't even think I had the slightest chance to recover. This is after playing this game since abotu 1 week after it's release. Some things just go by random luck, it's manipulating that luck that determines skil of the players. If Deemer hadn't been there, or even cast meteor even once, and I had to retreat or surrender I would have still played on hoping to find something to turn it to my advantage or at least make equal. However, losing all week 1 & week 2 armies early in week 2... I'd have to wait till week 3 to even try and fight, it seemed pointless. I saved my hero and had many good artifacts, (necklace of dragonteeth, pendant of courage, cloak of speed)but absoltely no army to speak of except a couple rocs and some orcs I have managed to surrender with my hero. On a different map maybe I would have also still tried, but it was a mostly ocean map with recources hard to come by... So, disappointing yes, but if I had played more cautiously perhaps a different outcome. Agression usually wins in this game, but not always as in that instance.
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 09:22 AM |
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it is quiet funny...
to see all the ignorance of the players that "like" hit and run or use it themselves... this "tactic" destroys what is the most fun in heroes, the town balance, since a stronghold, tower or a fortress can never beat a castle or inferno without shackles than.
you ever thought about how much fun it is playing stronghold, seeing your opponents power who is castle rise, and knowing that in 80% of the cases you cant do anything to avoid your ancients getting bolted down (if your lucky and have recanters that is, if not you may even get chained or meteored down) ?
and please, dont cóme up with "heyhey, i know ways of avoiding it!!!" , lol if your any good at this game you know thats not true
i really cant believe how someone cant understand that it is no fun playing with "no rules" , since you can play as good as you want and getting beat down by first day rush, hit and run, destroying catapults after you are tired of waiting outside of castle etc....
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 10:15 AM |
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Quote:
and please, dont cóme up with "heyhey, i know ways of avoiding it!!!" , lol if your any good at this game you know thats not true
Funny, I would think if a person were any good in this game he or she would have discovered numerous ways to minimize h/r. I must not be any good*, I guess, since I have come up with ways to avoid it - or at least make it so that it's NEVER (that's never as in not ever) a game determing factor.
But in a sense you may be right - if you play maps with only two castles and only one route to each other then maybe it could be considered not fair. But heck I've got a whole list of "not fairs" for you:
1. Life
2. Baldness (right Greystole?)
3. Any hero with the necromancy skill (Why they can build armies without towns!)
4. Maps with no water so Necro, Fortress, Castle, and Conflux can't build their shipyards
5. 4th level heroes - who's that mighty Druid with "Slayer"?
6. Eagle Eye - no fair stealing my spells without taking my town.
7. How come my Ghost Dragons never age anyone?
8. His chests gave him 2000 gold in his area mine only 1000
9. No fair - you can build behemoths in week 1 when i can't get my dragons till week 2
10. Why did Linda F. decide she wanted to stop be trampy just when we started dating?
11. Rob's marrying Melissa - Mocara had to go to the prom with his sister.
12. Damn leprechaun is always giving me 500 gold when I'm a Tower.
13. How come I couldn't see what a whiner this player was before I wasted 5 hours of my life playing him?
* "You're no good because you're not even ranked in ToH." - actual quote from plebe who decided not to play me.
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eliogabalus
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 10:47 AM |
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Agree with Andi
Re-animator you make no sense. Life is a risk so why use seat belt eh?
As have been said by others on this board, its a matter of preference. Some gets more fun out of the game playing with rules. You cant argue with that
Personally I usually agree to what opponent wants, its not a big deal, usually the luck factor isnt that big, though the few times someone gets a pack of level-7 joiners or a ressurect hero on certain maps or serious hit and run etc really would have been more enjoyable without IMO.
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 03:17 PM |
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Edited By: woods on 16 Jun 2001 09:19
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what's fun....?
why do always players who like game restrictions use words like ignorance ? - i think there is a lot of knowledge in arguing of the 'no rules ' faction .
i dont want to convince anyone of the hardcore 'rulers' to 'no rulers'- you decide for yourself that gaming must be fun (your fun!)....who am i to disagree ?
there are 'tons' of strategies how to play against that
'cheap tricks' (in the meanin of reanimator.... its not ever game determing).
but - especially to that rulers - have a look at the game settings at zone, or in division or in other tourneys...(seems more like avoiding losses ...(?)), have a look at the game settings of many 'newbies'... 'not that, nor that' aso - let them die (in h3-history) with poor game knowledge...
so i want to say thnxx to reanimator, mocara and all the other ones who rise their voices to defend true gaming
-woods
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 16, 2001 07:30 PM |
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Quote:
Re-animator you make no sense. Life is a risk so why use seat belt eh?
As have been said by others on this board, its a matter of preference. Some gets more fun out of the game playing with rules. You cant argue with that
Actually I made perfect sense. At no point did I talk about risks. Andi complained about certain things being unfair (he implied this) and made comments about players being ignorant and/or no good at this game. I disagreed with the latter and for the former pointed out many things are "unfair" in this game (and life). Perhaps if you hadn't read my post with a time limit imposed it would have made more sense*.
* that's a joke referencing my dislike of time limits and not a personal attack on you - people seem easily offended here
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