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| Thread: Total Tactics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 03:20 AM |
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tell me why...
....do "no rule" - players often say that rules are made to avoid a loss.
I dont think that most people set rules to raise the chance of winning a game. They just wanna keep some things out of the game to have more fun.
I lost many games, I suck :-) , some to hit and run, some in final battles, some cause of bad luck. Nearly all games i lost i had much fun :-) but the games i lost to hit and run i didnt enjoy. so I decided to play with "no hit and run rule" and that doesnt mean im afraid of losing. well i really like losing when i had a final battle and a good game - losing is the best way of learning ;-)
I love big final battles with only few creatures left at the end.
but i think some players prefer to attack opponent over and over again with 1 archangel to be sure there won't be a big final battle .....
so that means all players that do hit and run are afraid of loosing. Why should they use "hit and run", when they would sure they will win the final battle :-) think it over....;-)
@woods u say there r "tons" of strategies to counter hit and run . so please explain me what to do when ur opponent sents solmyr with nice power as scout with an archdevil he found in camp to ur castle and begins to flag ur mines....no faster creature, no shackles, no recanters , no negativity and u play stronghold
I wanna get better so please explain an unskilled player like me how u would counter this scenario in detail :-)
Bastardschaaf
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 17, 2001 06:43 AM |
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Edited By: Jinxer on 17 Jun 2001 01:09
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I agree with you fully Motor!
This subject goes on and on and on about hit and run, and no matter how many times I read it, it still doesnt make any sense how anyone can logically think that tactic is fair and decent tactic. It is a glitch in the game.  Although I will agree that there are several ways to defend a H&R.. BUT I would say 75% of the time NONE of the several options are available on the map in that game.
For example if you play SD3. Then I would say H&R should be allowed. Shackles are available to anyone who wants to take the time to go and retreave them. So if he find himself getting hit and run he has an option.
This debate can go back and forth for ever. I am soo glad that H&R wont be a factor in HOMM4. But I am sure alot of the H&R's will find some other cheesy , easy way to get there wins.
Just have Fun!
Jinxer
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 09:00 AM |
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Quote:
so please explain me what to do when ur opponent sents solmyr with nice power as scout with an archdevil he found in camp to ur castle and begins to flag ur mines....no faster creature, no shackles, no recanters , no negativity and u play stronghold
I wanna get better so please explain an unskilled player like me how u would counter this scenario in detail :-)
Bastardschaaf
Problem: High powered Solmyr with one Arch Devil comes into your territory and flags your mines. You are Stronghold.
Solution: Your (equivalently powered?) hero buys 6 Ogre Magi (at 400 gp each = 2400 gp), attacks Solmyr, takes a loss of 4 Ogre Magi due to spell (Chain Lightning I assume since you mention Solmyr). Solmyr surrenders (or faces death with your counter spell) at a cost of anywhere between 2250 gp (basic surrender) to 225 gp (expert diplomacy with all three diplo artifacts), and must then rehire Solmyr at a cost of 2500 gp.
Final Tally: You lost 4 Ogre Magi and gained up to 650 gp or lost 1375 gp. Your opponent lost anywhere from 4750 gp to 2725 gp.
Assuming you know that your opponent doesn't have Death Ripple you could have even gone out there with 7 goblins and still beaten him. In the above SPECIFIC example I assumed Solmyr had Death Ripple (a spell all players should get) and didn't have a Chain Lightning that started off with 960 damage - if that were the case you would need to add another Ogre Magi to be safe (and subtract another 400 gp from those your gain/loss). I also assumed your hero had enough Power to do 200 pts of damage with a spell. If that isn't that case, considering your opps Hero, h/r should be the last of your worries.
Was that enough detail?
Sorry for butting in woods.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 09:49 AM |
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again
"to see all the ignorance of the players that "like" hit and run or use it themselves... this "tactic" destroys what is the most fun in heroes, the town balance, since a stronghold, tower or a fortress can never beat a castle or inferno without shackles than.
you ever thought about how much fun it is playing stronghold, seeing your opponents power who is castle rise, and knowing that in 80% of the cases you cant do anything to avoid your ancients getting bolted down (if your lucky and have recanters that is, if not you may even get chained or meteored down) ?"
What? I don't think you considered this very carefully. I'd prefer my opponent wasting his spells on lightening bolts during a battle than creature benefit or negative spells. Stronghold strength is as attacker in siege. Don't go halfway and choose a battlemage, Craig Hack or creature specialty hero is much better choice. Expert offense, expert ballistics, expert air(with haste spell), resistance, and maybe armorer or artillery is perfect for taking a castle.
Also, I always hear people saying hit&run is a one sided strategy. Both sides have the opportunity to do it. I always assume if it isn't banned that my opponent will be doing it. It doesn't detract from the game for me, it just changes it a little.
Sometimes it is more difficult to beat certain towns using hit&run with certain other towns, but it is extremely satisfying when you accomplish a difficult win like that. I think some of my most intense games were facing very tough hit&run heroes when I either was extremely unlucky and didn't get magic bolt or lightening, or my opponent found some large + power artifact. Shackles sometimes helped me, a few times I had to get really creative, run away around the map and lose my castle, but leave a few heroes with some of my army to retake it day 1, then flee again- kept it up till I found a hero with expert water mgaic, then got prayer through scholar and with that plus necklace of swiftness... get attacked by a guy with 7 black dragons, chain lightening and lose two 7th levels and assorted other round 1, cast prayer and with help of high morale proceed to kill all 7 black dragons. Or one game I only killed 6 of them, but opponent was so shaken he was scared to attack me the rest of the game. He could have won if he came with full army, but he holed up on castle and I went around map getting last worthwhile artifacts, then acquiring some more spells...etc. Not always so lucky- I've lost to Tower hit&running me a few times, rarely solmyr for some reason, I think when I see solmyr I immediatly try and take him out directly. The earlier the better, when he can only cast chain once or twice due to low mana. Tower with golems, magi and nagas is actually fairly good early game hit&run town. Not as strong without the hordes of mg's of course, but decent still compared to most other towns.
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 01:18 PM |
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hitnbla
in that solmyr case, you assume you got your main there to stop him, that means your opponent takes interesting stuff while you gotta deal with a solmyr...so at the end you loose prolly...2nd you sack you ogre magi to sol, your opp looses only the surrender cost of the archi..what i mean is in the end that prolly will cost you the whole game...also you dont know if he has death ripple, or antimagic, and for that reason such a solmyr is a great pain...
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eliogabalus
Hired Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 05:04 PM |
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I don't like the word "rule". Perhaps better to think of it as an agreement between players? Then it's clearer that its 2 people's choice to improve the game experience, though it may seem stupid or pointless to others...
Re-animator don't worry you didnt offend me, though I still think you make no sense Life is not fair, then why try to have justice (laws)?
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 08:17 PM |
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Quote:
in that solmyr case, you assume you got your main there to stop him, that means your opponent takes interesting stuff while you gotta deal with a solmyr...so at the end you loose prolly...2nd you sack you ogre magi to sol, your opp looses only the surrender cost of the archi..what i mean is in the end that prolly will cost you the whole game...also you dont know if he has death ripple, or antimagic, and for that reason such a solmyr is a great pain...
No, I didn't assume you had your main there - although I did assume that since Solmyr was "high powered" that he was your opps main. I only assumed you had a hero with the necessary spell power to do at least 200 spell points of damage. As far as your opp taking interesting stuff on the map - you still have the bulk of your army to do just that too. And if someone is taking the time to do h/r on you just to cause you to lose 4 Ogre Magi a week (in this example) you are probably better off just going and taking his castle as he is likely weaker than you.
Also, even if you have slower troops you can still h/r someone - you just need to spread your troops out. If I see some hero with one ArchAngel coming in to my territory I assume he's there to h/r so I send out a hero with seven low-level stacks and enough power to take him out in no more than two rounds. How many times will he then waste his gold to kill 4 goblins at a time?
Finally, if you want to argue that h/r is no fun then fine - that's a personal feeling I don't share, but valid nonetheless. If you want to argue that it's a game-ruining, unavoidable, cheap tactic - well then you simply need to be educated in ways to counter it. I've heard all or at least many of the arguments for both sides and have drawn the conclusion that h/r is not cheap.
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 17, 2001 10:57 PM |
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Edited By: woods on 17 Jun 2001 17:00
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tell me why...or what do u mean , schaaf ?
i dont think that 'no rulers' often say that rules are made oto avoid losses. if i 've read statements like that from 'no rulers' then i think i always saw a '' or other marks for ironique. if u are refering to my post pls note, there's 'seems' and '?' - think enough style elements for a post.
to ur philosophical excursion: hit&runners attack to avoid losses ? yes , i've to agree, i think the best way (not only in h3-games) to avoid losses is active offense....
so pls think over....
but now 'your question ' :
as i've read it first time, it sounds to me like 'give me the right answer (-> hit&run is a lousy cheap game bug only used by cowards...) or shut up because of ignorance' ? do u mean that ?
i've heard that u sometimes are holding training lessons for real 'newbies' - what do u tell them ? all u know or all u've heard about that game ? do u teach your 'fun'?
do u teach your 'restricted fun' ? first lesson: how to set special rules ? (sorry, unobjective...)
all i know about that game i've learned in hundreds of hours online gaming since march'99 in a league called toh, but the most important thing i've learned is to avoid complaining if i'm not able to counter an attack. i have to do it again and again, mb i found a counter (and if not, mb my opp is the better one ?)
i've never heard that restrictions or prohibitions solve any problem....
and again: i dont want to convince anyone of the 'rulers' -
i've nothing to say against it if u are arguing with 'fun'.
but pls, dont insult people who have another meaning of 'fun' in that game !
thanxx to reanimator for his detailed answer
-woods
(peace @motorschaaf )
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 03:12 AM |
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reanimator...
you say i may need to get educated in tactics to counter hit and run...
i think you never faced a player who knows ecactly how to do it, did you play top toh players who use it? you will pretty soon see you got not a chance at all if they do it to you...
If you didnt, than you shouldnt talk like it is easy to avoid it, cuz i know its almost impossible most of the times
for example, you say if you see opponent coming with a archangel you split troops to avoid the hit and run, how you know few is not 4 that will kill you? or how you know there is no scout with more troops behind them? how you know opp doesnt have shakles and kills you while you try to avoid it?
what i mean is good hit and runners dont just come up with 1 angel or so, so you can take 7 stacks and avoid it, they come up with their army behind them so you got no choice but to bring yours too.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 18, 2001 04:37 AM |
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Andi, first you give us the example of the archangel h/r. reanimator explains to you what to do, then you extrapolate on another different tactics, like what happens if he brings the whole army behind. Well, it happens that you will do what you like best, bring your whole army and fight till death as you seems to enjoy Of course, after eliminating the "pain" with one archangel.
I would be interested to read each example when "top" players killed you with the perfect hit and run. It becames perfect only when opponent is not able to anticipate it, beeing not agresive.
It's not about educating anyone , but....how many h/r players can say the lost a game because of it? Mocara? Reanimator? Frank? I am waiting your complains
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Era II mods and utilities
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted June 18, 2001 04:42 AM |
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I forgot one.. I would like to see which "top" player will come into your land with "few" archangel/s with shackless on. Its suicide.
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Era II mods and utilities
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maxym
Known Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 07:56 AM |
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and any decent player playing an all-out game will always test for shackles and actual unit split with a scout. I was ahead of Frank in our only game (7 lakes) and i had no idea he had shackles. I am inferno he is stronghold. he has dispatched a number of my scouts without ever giving an idication he has them.
Then he made feint at one of my main towns, with his whole army it looked as if trying to take it. He stopped far away so it didn't look like he was not afraid of H&R from my main. And then he put his shackles on, if i didn't test him 1st the game would have been over right there as i was preparing to H&R him, and i would have none else to blame for it but me.
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"What is life? Work followed by television."
"1985" Anthony Burgess
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Re-Animator
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 09:27 AM |
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Quote:
If you didnt, than you shouldnt talk like it is easy to avoid it, cuz i know its almost impossible most of the times
Just so we're clear - I have never said it's easy to "avoid" h/r - if someone wants to h/r you they will likely be able to do it. What I have constantly maintained is that you can minimize its effectiveness and make it economically disadvantageous for your opponent.
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Mocara
Famous Hero
what?
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posted June 18, 2001 09:49 AM |
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Who cares?
Salamandre you have a good point about great players never losing to hit and run.
One of the things about a message board is you get players who admittedly "suck" like motorschaaf mouthing off alongside true masters like Reanimator and Ichon who I think sometimes take too much care in explaining things to these do-do heads.
I am not religious but I really like that part in the bible where it says not to cast your pearls before swine.
Reanimator you know how to defend any attack. You are an intelligent man who has studied this series for years but why bother explaining to someone who will just go back to his clan and chuckle and then play a map where even we would have a hard time defending this tactic.
Jex said it best when he told me that he and I don't even play the same game. He's right.
Just by the far fetched examples they come up with shows they clearly are reaching.
Solmyr and arch devil from refuge camp. What the hell map are you playing anyway?
It is just important to save the energy and remember that this battle has always raged and always will.
They don't want to play us and we sure as hell don't want to play them and their watered down version of the game.
What is this? Amway? You going to get some points for sponsoring us into your lil rulemaker cult?
No?
Then why bother. And I say the same to you guys who try to explain it to them.
You honestly think they want to know the answers?
Well they don't.
They even made a league based around playing this way.
Bastards get your own message board and I promise we won't come over there and post.
Your arguments are pourous and laced with negativity.
Play with rules. Play without rules.
But noone will ever change the mind of someone who hasn't figured out the games basics by now.
-Mocara
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AndiAngelsla...
Disgraceful
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 01:14 PM |
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to salamandre and maxym... im not dumb, i mean i got the shakles with me and would use them next turn if i see him standing there with battle dwarves or golems or whatever.
sal, what you mean with perfect hit and run? a hit and run just kills the opponents best unit (cuz thats prolly what you aim at) without any losses for you besides the scout who tested for shakles...
you wanna have a exmple? fine, we play crisscross, you break to middle week3, but not day1 cuz your tower or so, you dont see anything at first, so you got your army with you. i got my army with me too, and also some scouts ( i may have taken middle castle and bought some cuz im fast with dessa, just an example, or brought them out of my land). Now 1 of them hits you and looks if shakles, you dont have them on, good, an other takes of all but 1 of the fastest unit, i hit you, kill something of your best troops,buy back in middle town chain back my army to main.
just an example, im sure i get at least 20 replies that come up with why this wont work good, but for me im pretty sure it does.
to maxym, rule making is the last resort of the incompetent, no its the last resort of players who care for the fun in a game of heroes...for me that is: no hit and run, no 1st day rush, and if my opp says to me damn i got killed by a monster with morale i answer: fine, my auto?
to mocara, well you obviously didnt wanna insult me, so you took motorschaaf with whom its much easier, even if it was me who was arguing with you guys.
just to answer: solmyr and archi, what maps we play? well i guess maps where you can get a archi and a solmyr, shocking i know...
you call reanimator a intelligent man of heroes who has studied this game and is a very clever "tactican", well to me he didnt proove that in a game or a league, so its just another statement that makes not much sense.
also, this isnt your message board, and since me, motorschaaf and otheres are in toh i dunno why we shouldnt post here, also i dont see any insults in what he wrote, i just see them in what you wrote.
your statment that we didnt figure the game basics out, well i wont comment that, maybe motor wants...
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Phantom1500
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 01:52 PM |
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I think all this arguing with hit and run has gotten no one anywhere, instead now more people are afraid to hit and run their opponent cause they think they will be labelled as cheaters. So people please hit and run me, I personally enjoy it that the opponent would dare risking a loss to pick off some of my troops and it gets me angry too so the win is that much more satisfying. I think it's crap when your opponent just gives up and doesn't do everything possible to win and I feel cheated out of a good finish.
On another note, this was supposed to be the total tactics thread and not another hit and run violent debate. Can anyone please post some more interesting tactics and combos, because no one is really learning anything new and interesting from arguing about the same old things. Something good that comes in rarely. Like playing rampart with a second tower town and knowing your opponent has implosion, so you get couple master genies paired up with your army, cause you know they will cast magic mirror on the gold dragons. Anyone else know any nice tricks like that?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted June 18, 2001 02:51 PM |
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Oracle come BACK!
I actually wish someone would start Oracle back up so the all mighty , and Rightous Mocara in his infinite wisdom and highly superiour wisdom and total tactics of this game can once again shine! The bottom line is that most of the people now adays are more interested in enjoying a good hardfought fun game of Heroes. I am sure when it first came out everyone loved all the cheap easy win tactics they could exploit when they found them. I know several people that start looking for all the glitches in a game soon as it comes out just to give them an abnormal advantage to win. In the description of Heroes when they explain it they use the word balance quite often. They use that word for a reason becasue that was there sole intent of this game. BALANCE! Not I can win the entire game just casue I got the fast creature and none of the life saving counters are avialble to me.
But you are correct in your statment that there is no sense trying to convince others to think your way. You are in the same boat. You love the cut throat play as dirty as possible get the fastest easiest WIN as possible. And you the same refuse to budge. HOMM4 is soon to be hear and from the articles and reports I have seen. H&R will nolonger be an issue, so this debate will fade. It is just to bad they didnt make a patch for H&R instead of waiting till new game to fix it.
BTW, Mocara I didnt say anything about puking this time, so it aint that bad hehe j/k
Have fun,
Jinxer
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Shae_Trielle
Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
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posted June 18, 2001 04:04 PM |
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Jinxer, you call the H&R thing a glitch, yet even the programmers themselves have programmed the computer to hit and run whenever possible...
I think that they have changed H&R for homm4 because the majority of players (the ones I see) don't like this particular feature of the game. Just because it's not in homm4 doesn't mean that it was a mistake in homm3.
And I don't know why people bomb on Mocara for all the time, he's a damned honourable player and he fights tooth and claw. He told me himself that he will use hit and run only when he has no option left and that seems rather fair to me.
Don't play the haters and don't hate the players.
By the way, speaking of total tactics, Mocara amazed me by his very clever use of water holes to increase his movement (something I'd never really considered) and Master Genies. He managed to kill me rather easily with three genies and 8 elves by simply using the genies to cast spell after spell upon the elves which made them nearly invincible and I could do nothing to take them out except advance upon him, which of course, gave the elves even more leverage to decimate my armies.
It made me think about the whole 'bigger army wins' kinda thing, because I had the bigger army, and I still lost. I'll never forget that, I hope you have a few more tricks up your sleeve to show me moc.
*smile*
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woods
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 04:49 PM |
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and one thing for sure....
u aren't alone, mocara !
they may concentrate their insults - but they are hitting
more as they know.
>> You honestly think they want to know the answers?
Well they don't. <<
now i believe, that u are right with ur opinion
why dont they play tacticians with a modified magic
system ?
-woods
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motorschaaf
Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
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posted June 18, 2001 05:23 PM |
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words from a do-do head ........
Well Mocara i really appologize that i posted on ur board without asking u. 
i may be a so called "do-do head" and i may not have the game knowledge that u have but I know all cheap tricks. I know how to use em, and i know how to counter them (most o the times there are NO ways to counter some tactics) but i would never use em .
Well i totally agree with jinxer i hope they will reopen this grand master tournament called Oracle. and this is no offense . Think it would be great if there would be a tourney where u have to play no rules and its forbidden to set some  . so it would be sure that every player has 100% Fun when playing.....and maybe some of the so called grandmasters would stop to attack some players with their posts only cause they dont like hit and run and set rules
@ woods : yep its right if a newbie wants me to teach him some things bout the game why shouldnt i tell him some things ? And why shouldnt i tell him how i like the game most ? if he doesnt like the way i play the game im sure he will play the game the way he enjoys it most.
@ shae : did i bomb on mocara ? well plz tell me when i did it. if so i really appologize...well maybe i did in this post here but i really dont like when people call me names without any reason just because he is maybe a better player.... maybe....
do-do-head-schaaf
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