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Heroes Community > Heroes 6 - The New Beginning > Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.7 - Discussion thread ~
Thread: ~ Heroes 6 patch 1.7 - Discussion thread ~ This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted October 04, 2012 05:33 PM

Quote:
How do they include D&D creatures like beholders in games like HoMM in the first place?
Do they acquire the rights or something, or is it through some kind of 'fair use' policy?

They aren't. They are going to use Shadow Lurkers. Creatures that are very similar to Beholders, yet thoroughly rooted in Ashan Lore.
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Verriker
Verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 04, 2012 05:41 PM

Functionally, I expect nothing from this expansion.
Aesthetically, I'm just praying that they don't color-code every single Dungeon unit.

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GenyaArikado
GenyaArikado


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
posted October 04, 2012 05:51 PM

Quote:
Quote:
How do they include D&D creatures like beholders in games like HoMM in the first place?
Do they acquire the rights or something, or is it through some kind of 'fair use' policy?

They aren't. They are going to use Shadow Lurkers. Creatures that are very similar to Beholders, yet thoroughly rooted in Ashan Lore.


Inb4 Apple sues them.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 04, 2012 05:53 PM
Edited by Avirosb at 18:06, 04 Oct 2012.

Quote:
They aren't. They are going to use Shadow Lurkers
Yup, that name seems generic enough for an Ashan being. Not that beholder isn't.
I wish they would come up with proper made-up names for their original creatures though.

PS: Is the Shadow Lurker related to/resemble the Facehugger from Dark Messiah?
Quote:
Aesthetically, I'm just praying that they don't color-code every single Dungeon unit.
You just know they're gonna do that.
Dark elves wear black and purple clothing, Warhammer and D&D says so.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted October 04, 2012 05:59 PM

Quote:
Yup, that name seems generic enough for an Ashan being. Not that beholder isn't.
I wish they would up with proper made-up names for their original creatures though.

PS: Is the Shadow Lurker related to/resemble the Facehugger from Dark Messiah?

Not that we know of. Physically, they don't resemble them much. They are essentially a large Eye of Malassa (just like those on Faceless and Dragon-wings) surrounded by tentacles which double as eyestalks.
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Verriker
Verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 04, 2012 06:05 PM

Quote:
You just know they're gonna do that.


Come on. There's no way.
I mean just look at this image. They just can't. I'll claw my own eyes out if they even try it.

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Avirosb
Avirosb


Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
posted October 04, 2012 06:12 PM


It is a little weird to call Dungeon a "fan favorite" (unless people really, really love the dark elves from H5. Or Black Dragons, that seems more likely).

I mean, in H1-2 it was the warlock faction.
In H3 it was the dungeon faction (with a focus on greed and powermongering).
In H4 it was the chaos faction.
In H5 it was the dungeon faction again, only with dark elves.

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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 04, 2012 06:32 PM

Well it is one of the factions which had the most changes in history.
But it is also the one faction that somehow represents heroes. Especially the one from heroes III. And when you hear people complain about missing factions most of them will say Dungeon. They might not even mean the dungeon from heroes V but they mean Black Dragons, The games icon since Heroes II.
This does not make Academy or Sylvan elves less popular, but they are not standing out so much in the minds of the fans as the Black dragon and therefor the dungeon does.

On a different topic
Unlike KingImp, I do not care who makes this game, but one thing that I would like to know is.
If this is supposed to be a Stand allone, does this mean it will not be connected in any way to the original game? Will we not be abele to use our Heroes, Weapons, pets etc... basicly our entire proces we made in the vanila game?
How will this Expansion work when it comes to the cooperation with the original game.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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War-overlord
War-overlord


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
posted October 04, 2012 06:41 PM

Seeing as how, most of us at least, will be connected to the conflux at all times, I expect we can make use of everything we've already unlocked there.
And for those who aren't connected to the conflux, I doubt it will have much effect if they aren't now either.
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MeanMan
MeanMan


Adventuring Hero
posted October 04, 2012 06:57 PM

Like probably everyone around here, i'd prefer Black Dragons as Dungeons champion units over those faceless things.

But, does it make sense lorewise? Aren't Faceless sworn enemies of the Angels, who are champion units. If they are implementing faceless as elites, they would be much weaker than their rivals.

Maybe they are going the same road they went in H5 - making Dungeon units less in numbers but much stronger unit per unit, so the difference between a Dungeon elite and a Haven (for example) champion is somewhat smaller.

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Verriker
Verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 04, 2012 07:27 PM

Many of you mention lore and how it's important that things are rooted in lore, I don't know about you, but I mean, is there one really good thing Erwin le Breton's lore has brought to the series, or one really compelling character or storyline he created in ten years of command.
All I hear about on other fora is how it's so full of contradictions, bad writing and ham-fisted ideas.

Maybe there's something in the lore to justify the color-coding stuff and re-use of old models?
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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 04, 2012 07:56 PM

Quote:
Many of you mention lore and how it's important that things are rooted in lore, I don't know about you, but I mean, is there one really good thing Erwin le Breton's lore has brought to the series, or one really compelling character or storyline he created in ten years of command.
All I hear about on other fora is how it's so full of contradictions, bad writing and ham-fisted ideas.

Maybe there's something in the lore to justify the color-coding stuff and re-use of old models?

Point one. one person does not create the entire lore
Point two. one person does not write all the stories. To be exact each story is written by a different author
Point three. The lore of the new world is actually really good and imho better then such setting like Warcraft. But that is just an opiion

Fact is, most of the stories are bad, and they have something to improve. On the other hand they are getting better, slowly.
I for myself think it is better to have a consistent guidline and setting rather then introdicing new worlds in each game like NWC did. When you look at it now. Only few of their games were actually situated in the same place. Most of them just introduced a new land/planet/continet with characters and some ingame notes as linking devices.

And if you want characters that are noticible, I think Arantir, Gotai or Xana are memorable characters. Sure its not Sandro, Crag or Roland, but we who can say how they will end up.

Also color-coding - yes the lore gives info why the factions have the coding they have. mostly is is based on their religion. Mallassa being dark and purple, Shelassa being blue, Elrath ha a golde hugh, Namtaru venom is toxic green.
And finally Model reuse is an Economical problem. It is not the problem of the game, or the problem of the lore. Just a problem of the brand owner who limits the resources that he provides to a project. Well I do not what tu judge if they are just gready or very secure about their investments. Everybody wants to have some kind of a profit from what he does. So until I can have a look at their accounting I won't judge.
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We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Verriker
Verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 04, 2012 09:24 PM

I can't really see the appeal though.

I think the thrust of Erwin's lore is: good and evil hatched from an egg (no reason given), good spawned the greek classical elements or elemental lords reinterpreted as dragons. Then good and her dragons fought the evil dragon and beat him by locking him in the planet core.
Each dragon made a race, again assigned to an element. Furthermore, you say each element/dragon/race is also assigned an exclusive color, and apparently the art director must not diverge from this no matter what.
All of this is super vague and, although it's been ret-conned a lot, it hasn't been developed after about six years of games. Then, later on, the wizards played Frankenstein and created beastmen, who killed the wizards and became emancipated. The entire bestiary on this whole planet is either these dragons and their races, random spirits, or animals fused with humans.

After this point it all grows very hazy, and we get a bunch of forgettable wars and events phoned in from Warhammer and DnD.
Heroes V is supposedly the Heroes III story again, only more poorly-told with a main character who nobody likes.
And Heroes VI is this bland plot which I can't even find a discussion thread about, trying to rip off Game of Thrones and Shakespeare but never even reaching a level worthy of a few fan comments, by the looks of it.

Is this sort of accurate?
I mean, it's like a two-year-old wrote some of this stuff. You said it's consistent, but in the other thread you guys discussed how even very basic facts are ret-conned every time for no reason, like whether a Rakshassa is a beast or not.
Sorry for a rant, I mean, the principle of having some sort of world bible and aesthetic guideline is fine, whatever, but this material is not sufficient.

And it's like, really, to me, there's no excuse for a company operating at 1 billion to get away with reusing a character model for a Heroes creature (or many Heroes creatures). Maybe if your team is two people working from a shed with no budget, yeah, more forgivable. But you know, this is as if a director reuses a special effect in the same movie.

How many writers has Ubi used so far? Is Erwin still in charge?


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Dave_Jame
Dave_Jame


Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
posted October 04, 2012 09:50 PM

Well everything can be written in a symple way. But not that simple. You see you stated some facts but most of them are not true.
For instance that all 6 dragons sided fith their mother at all time. This is not true. And it was disccussed so if you read all the topics you should no.

Also there is no word that an artist can't change anything, it is just not wanted. For example in the card game Duel of Champions, you will find creatures that would not fit in the factions color scheam.

The songs fire and ice were one of the first things i thouth about when the info to Heroes VI was caming out. But even they are not all that original, its fantasy, and fantasy is rarelly original.

And now we come to the Lore part. The problem here is, that people just intepret things wrong. Like the Manticora topic in the lore topic. There was never a word about the manticoras being beastman, but even some lore educated individual for some reason thought so. Basically the beastman creation is the only major retconn in the game, Other are mostly only text clerafications, like the last QaA vidoe that gives some light into the uncertain system of the holly empire from the older games. Nothing has changed, but it is presented in a more understandable Way.

One point is true. That you can devide all creatures in ashan.
Dragon gods and their children
Creatures created by the gods (Eldar races, animals)
Fused creatures (gryphon, manticora)
Spirits (Elementals, etc.)
Creatures created by mages (Undead, Beastman, orcs, constructs)

But you can do this the same way in NWC univers
Ancients, Kreegans and their machines
Races used by the ancients to seed planets
Creatures from the elemental plains
Creatures created by mages/necromancers/Warlocks

So I fail to see your point. Is it that now they actually tell you what is what and why? Or you just miss the old "I do not actually care, its fantasy" approach?

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I'm just a Mirror of your self.

We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.

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Verriker
Verriker


Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
posted October 04, 2012 10:17 PM

It's just that, sure, you can write a bunch of excuses and keep telling me you don't see my point or it's invalid or whatever, and that's fine, I do get that this is a devoted fan forum, but it looks like the majority of old Heroes players and casuals just consider this whole enterprise a failure and don't care anymore.
So mismanaged, and no trust and all, but it's sad that's the way it is because I think the game has a lot more potential than the popamole stuff most studios put out today.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 04, 2012 10:25 PM

The story has been discussed a number of times as have been the characters but truth is not a lot of people are overly fond of them. The game seems to suffer from a-wizard-did-it syndrome and has an overreliance on the religion aspect which is not bad by itself but it is getting tiresome at some point. Maybe because it is more used as a background than an actual force that plays a direct role in the events of the game. That said the lore has had its bright moments too but in the end it's more about implementation than lore being problematic. With some proper work Ashan can become a pretty interesting setting or at least the stories set into it.
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JollyJoker
JollyJoker


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
posted October 04, 2012 11:25 PM

Actually, the wizards did it is the best approach ever, because not only it offers an explanation, but allows for more "mythical" creatures.
You are a victim of the "no-eplanation-no-problem" syndrome: if there's no explanation whatsoever for something, your mind starts looking for explanations (creative, positive). If there IS an explanation, your mind starts looking for HOLES in it (analytical, negative).
AND it's not good and evil - it's order and chaos. Order is NOT good, cvhaos is NOT evil. Inferno is NOT evil - Necropolis is NOT good, Haven is NOT good.

For a simple gaming universe Ashan is pretty good, actually. For a universe that actually wants to EXPLAIN everything.

The Void getting in now is a nice twist currently. You people should just give the lore a chance.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted October 04, 2012 11:52 PM
Edited by Elvin at 23:52, 04 Oct 2012.

Wanting to torture, maim or otherwise kill the rest of Ashan counts for evil I'd think. You might argue that demons might not have a choice in the matter because they were created for this purpose but the end result is about the same. That may not necessarily be 100% true for every one of its denizens(only Erwan would know) but so far they look more black than grey.

I personally don't like everything having an explanation, that takes the mystery out of the setting. But if you bother to do it you might as well find something more elegant or less forced at least. The wizard explanation sounds more of a lazy way out than anything.
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Map also hosted on Moddb

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blob2
blob2


Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
posted October 05, 2012 01:02 AM

My favorite element of the lore are the Dragon Gods. But imo they should be used more in the game. Instead they take the form of omnipresent "belive-me-they-do-exist-altough-nobody-has-seen-them! enities. Well I know that is what "gods" usually do, but because their form was hinted in various pieces of art I see no reason to not make them physically present in-game.

And truth be told, Heroes 6 protagonists are not to my liking, well maybe Kiril and Sandor are the only exceptions, but the rest is forgettable. The campaigns narrative (although the plot had potential) was one of the most poorly executed in games that I have ever played. Even when I played it in the suggested order, it still left me confused (well, not the overall story, but many dialogs and events felt misplaced, or got me the wtf is going on? feeling).  

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VOKIALBG
VOKIALBG


Honorable
Legendary Hero
First in line
posted October 05, 2012 08:24 AM
Edited by VOKIALBG at 08:25, 05 Oct 2012.

The Dragon Gods thing was a bad idea, it makes H6 lore copy of the Warcraft one. There are dragon gods creators of the world there, and water, fire and etc dragon. + the bad dragon, brother of the creator dragon. Its all the same... Only - the warcraft story is better made, since its not a cheap copy like the H5 and after one.

...

...

...

Sadly Ubisoft can not think alone.

This is very, very sad. H's lore was so more original in the past.
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